alphascan
Posts: 795
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:04 am

What Does Turmoil At Delta Say About Song?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:52 am

Leo leaving. Losses 50% wider than expected. Closed lips on Song's performance. Are these preliminary indications that the "airline within an airline" concept is failing once again?
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: What Does Turmoil At Delta Say About Song?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:58 am

Wow, that's a pretty big leap......

The losses are wider than expected because of more pilots retiring than normal. Leo is leaving, but the bad PR because of the retention plan probably made him a bit ineffectual as a leader. Song is expanding its fleet and its routes next year, and every statement out of the company has been that it is doing very well.

Don't forget, Delta Express was the only airline-within-an-airline that was ever profitable. Once employee (not just pilot) costs get down, then the airline will return to profitability.

You may remember when Leo's predecessor left, after leading the company through a major cost-cutting and downturn in the economy. Someone has to be the bad guy, and someone new can come in and be the good guy,
 
LHR001
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:56 am

RE: What Does Turmoil At Delta Say About Song?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:23 am

Before you go on and attack SONG....

Review SONG, in less than a year the following destinations have been added to the SONG network-

Atlanta
Boston
Ft. Lauderdale
Ft. Meyers
Las Vegas
Los Angeles
Newark
New York/JFK
New York/LGA
Orlando
Palm Beach
San Juan
Tampa
Washington D.C

It has been discussed before in the forum many times that SONG, is being looked at to replace Delta Airlines domestically. Be it a rumor, be it true. SONG, has been doing incredibley well. All of the fashion types- editors, publishers, and literati are flocking to SONG. In a recent article Conde Nast and W both spoke to the good and modernity that SONG has brought to the table. Even without JetBlue's claim to fame Direct TV..SONG is still outperforming expectations..More recently there has been a sales outlet opened in Soho, in New York City. The store and its SONG merchandise are selling like mad...

Look for SONG to expand in the following markets as well-

Chicago
Cincinatti
Dallas
Miami
Salt Lake City
San Francisco
Seattle
Phoenix

SONG, may very well be what Delta Airlines needs to reinvent their clientele and marketing. Meanwhile, as more and more 757 aircraft are painted in SONG colors.. Delta Airlines can focus on its international marketplace. Leaving the smaller destinations to Delta Connection!
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: What Does Turmoil At Delta Say About Song?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:40 am

The truth is we will never know just how well Song is doing, since they fly under DL's operating certificate and thus DL does not and most likely will not brake out there actual numbers and tell anyone. So they can tell us all day long that they are the best thing since sliced bread. Also WHY would DL allow Song to fly to and from CVG the one hub that has NO LCC competition! Please they suddenly want to pass on savings to the flyers from CVG.. NOT!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
jrlander
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: What Does Turmoil At Delta Say About Song?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:59 am

Ummm.... I think the airline business is still a business! Delta will compete where Delta has to compete. People continually complain on this board about Delta's dominance of CVG, but Delta has brought a level of service to CVG that the city would not have without it. Without that huge hub, CVG could not support flights to LGW, FRA, CDG, AMS, HNL, FCO. Nor could it support the number of flights it has to the huge number of cities.

And Delta isn't claiming that Song is the best thing since sliced bread. However, why would they expand a service if it wasn't looking good financially? They are losing tons of money, and Song is one way they are attempting to stem that. But Delta's top is extremely financially conservative. They have been cutting everything they can. But Song is being allowed to grow.
 
ssides
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

RE: What Does Turmoil At Delta Say About Song?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:59 am

I don't think you'll see Song at DFW either. DL is simply too RJ-heavy there for that kind of operation. It will also depend on how successful AirTran's DFW expansion is.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
tu154m
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 4:52 am

RE: What Does Turmoil At Delta Say About Song?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:42 pm

SONG just announced(internally) the cancellation of ALOT of flights. Due to "market demand". What BS that is. Really they mean "nobody is on the planes so let's cancell the flight. I know the flights out of ATL are consistently EMPTY.
S
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
 
Guest

RE: What Does Turmoil At Delta Say About Song?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:13 am

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3903
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: What Does Turmoil At Delta Say About Song?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:13 am

The truth is we will never know just how well Song is doing, since they fly under DL's operating certificate and thus DL does not and most likely will not brake out there actual numbers and tell anyone. So they can tell us all day long that they are the best thing since sliced bread. Also WHY would DL allow Song to fly to and from CVG the one hub that has NO LCC competition! Please they suddenly want to pass on savings to the flyers from CVG.. NOT!

Reid admitted a couple of weeks ago that Song hasn't "broken into the low 80's" in load factor. Song has thus not filling its planes as well as Jetblue which has been consistently in the 80's, and in the 90's on some routes, this year. Several articles in the NY Times and other sources have argued that Song's yields are slightly lower than JetBlue's, for whatever that's worth. I don't know the Times' sources for their data. Allowing for all of this, Song could still be making a regular profit, which is far more than can be said for Delta mainline. My gut feeling is that Song is doing quite well, though perhaps not as well as cheerleader LHR001 would have us believe. I'll take also his assertion that Song is the "in-thing" among NY fashionable types, with a big grain of salt, unless he produces evidence.

Yes, Jrlander, Delta offers lots of nonstops that CVG wouldn't have otherwise. But they pay out the ass on fares, and that isn't right either. Reid's assertion this week that Cincinnatians' only choices are Delta's rapine fares, or not have a Delta hub, is self-serving BS. If we take PIT's high cost of $9 per seat as a benchmark, we can be sure that Delta's charging a lot more than $9 additional on every CVG seat, or nearly 30 percent of Cincinnati fliers wouldn't be fleeing to CMH, IND, DAY, and SDF. There is *no excuse* for the excessively high fares Delta charges in Cincinnati.

It would be *very* surprising if DL initiated Song service at CVG. There is no low-fare competition there, and lots of Comair spoke markets don't have low-fare options to say LAS or MCO.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
airways6max
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 6:22 am

RE: What Does Turmoil At Delta Say About Song?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:19 am

Yep. Airlines within airlines just don't work. No wonder Delta is losing money. Song is probably eating up resources and the costs for promoting two airlines, two brands must be prohibitive.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: What Does Turmoil At Delta Say About Song?

Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:36 am

Delta's executive turmoil says absolutely nothing about Song. Period. Not relevant. Trying to connect the two is foolish.

Let's put the "airlines within airlines never work" argument to bed permanently. Delta and United have both tried and seem committed to the idea of airlines within airlines while CO, NW, and AA don't seem real interested. US tried it and got burned. DL and UA are not stupid enough to continue to throw money down ventures that won't work. Let's keep in mind that they are public companies run by boards of directors which are legally required to consider the interests of shareholders - or face being sued. While airline finances can say many things, there has to be a fairly significant amount of evidence that airlines within airlines work or DL and UA wouldn't be doing it again. As wholly owned subsidiaries, Delta and United don't have to report Song and Ted's performance. We accept that Delta and United make the right decisions with respect to their ownership of ASA, Comair, and Mileage Plus (for just a small sample) but somehow think we are the experts when it comes to how they use their large jets.

I personally commend Delta and United for trying something new and fresh with their subsidiaries. They obviously don't agree between themselves about what an airline within an airline should be but Ted and Song both obviously are rooted in a recognition that United and Delta cannot continue operating as they currently do. There is a good chance that lessons learned and product enhancements from Song and Ted will make their way into their parent airlines' operations; I look forward to the day when the airline product is of a higher quality and is offered at a lower price than today and Song and Ted both offer that promise. Reworking a fleet of nearly 1000 aircraft each (including mainline and regional partners) is no small task and if experimenting with new ventures gets them where they need to be, more power to them.

Delta and United have both been around for decades and can obviously survive although United clearly has some unique challenges at this time. Both companies will get their costs down in order to compete or perish and neither is showing any willingness to throw in the towel. Let's give these companies credit for adapting to the ever changing world of aviation - even though it may take them longer to get there than it does at smaller companies.

And don't forget what an unbelievable gift it is to fly - regardless of the airline or aircraft.
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: What Does Turmoil At Delta Say About Song?

Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:17 pm

WORLDTRAVELER,
UAL has some unique challenges right now? We have aired our dirty laundry, now we'll see what DL will do without Uncle Leo,song and high pilot salaries.


UAL 767 CONTRAIL

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