anstar
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CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:55 pm

http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/031127/0409000485_1.html

The British and Hong Kong governemnts have come to agreement allowing CX to fly 1 daily service between New York and London.
In return Virgin Atlantic will be allowed to fly Hong Kong -Sydney

This is good news, but I don't think the likes of SQ, BD, CO, DL etc will be to happy. They have been trying to do this for years!
 
Udo
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:03 pm

Not bad, they will most likely operate a B744 on the route. There should be a lot of demand for their famous service.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:04 pm

Interesting. I wonder what, if anything, Australia and the U.S. get in return?
 
Leskova
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:42 pm

How does this work in light of Bermuda II - I thought only BA, VS, UA and AA were allowed to fly from LHR to the US? Or is Bermuda II only binding for airlines from GB and the US?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
oxygen
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:45 pm

Does that mean Qantas' CEO has to dress in Virgin uniform and work as a virgin stewardess for one day ?
 
9V-SVE
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:56 pm

How does this work in light of Bermuda II - I thought only BA, VS, UA and AA were allowed to fly from LHR to the US? Or is Bermuda II only binding for airlines from GB and the US?

Air India and Kuwait Airways have been flying the route for years.
 
Leskova
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:02 pm

Oops, didn't know that - I thought they only did that from FRA and AMS, and not from LHR... so, in other words, Bermuda II really only applies to airlines from GB and the US...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Udo
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:06 pm

Singapore Airlines flies to the US ex FRA and AMs, not Cathay.
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
notdownnlocked
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:13 pm

What is not mentioned is that the UK can give any airline the right to fly between the UK and the US any day of the week but what the US government has to say about this is another thing. The US just approved TG's flights from BKK to JFK approx. 2 weeks ago through any city in Europe while specifically excluding LHR from the routing. I read this on Aviation Daily or AWST online 2 weeks ago.
 
Leskova
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:13 pm

I know - I was referring to AI and KU...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Udo
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:30 pm

Ok, misunderstanding!
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
bkkair
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:34 pm

Unless I am missing someone, this will make CX the only airline that you can fly on around the world, including across North America.

 
chepos
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:37 pm

Bermuda II only applies to airlines from the USA and the UK (2 from each country can fly between LHR and the USA).

Finally VS can start flying the kangaroo route, CX gets a sweet deal in return.
So this means we wont see Richard Branson working a Qantas airlines flights. What a pity I wanted to see this show.
Chepos
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
Leskova
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:45 pm

Does CX already have the permission from the US side? Is there an Open-Skies-Agreement between HK and the US - and would that be applicable in this case, with the aircraft not arriving from HK but Britain?

If they haven't received US permission yet, I'd say that this might just be celebrating a bit early...

Udo - no problem  Big grin
Smile - it confuses people!
 
anstar
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:17 pm

I was under the impression SQ and CX both have Us approval, it is just the UK that was holding it back.

I also don't think australia gets anything back?
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:24 pm

I bet BMI are tearing their hair out seeing a third party airline enter this lucrative market which BD would love to operate.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
anstar
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:32 pm

I bet, and the US carriers also.

What gets me, is that if the UK/US airlines need to be equal numbers ie 2 US & 2 UK why can't they increase it to 3 of each ie add DL, CO or NW and let BD fly????

But it means more competition, I bet they won;t be allowed to codeshare with AA or BA

Though, the press release does say
'The aviation deal allows for unlimited traffic on routes between Hong Kong and Britain, while giving carriers "fifth freedom" rights, which allow them to fly on to other points.'

So I presume that BD could also fly to Hong Kong, and perhaps allow UK airlines to fly say Hong Kong - USA if the US agreed?

[Edited 2003-11-27 15:54:48]
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:43 am

BD's A332's dont have the legs to do LHR/MAN - HKG.

I heard that BD were starting LHR-DXB though with a A332. When does that start?

Rgds,

CM
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:51 am

BD won't be flying long haul from LHR until they get the necessary route approval/slots from the authorities. They'll want to start LHR-North America flights for feeder traffic before venturing into Asia.
Also, i wonder how SQ will be feeling that they're biggest rivals, CX, get approval for LON-NYC flights while they've been refused landing rights at JFK?

In Arsene we trust!!
 
anstar
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:22 am

Have SQ been refused landing rights? Or have they been refused flying the route from the UK authorities?

 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:23 am

Does anyone think that CX will base a 772 or A333 at LHR to do the route (i know they are not the IGW versions, so cant do LHR-HKG) as it will be less of a drain on the finances than a 744 when trying to tap into a new market.

I'd base a 772 or A333 (i think a 773 will be too big - damn!) there permanantly, and then feed them with 744 and A343 from HKG.

CM
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
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RayChuang
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:37 am

The big question right now is how long will CX fly the LHR-JFK route? Given the fact that CX has pretty much recovered from the SARS scare and with the US economy on the rebound, I think CX may eventually give up LHR-JFK as a continuation of the HKG-LHR route in favor of a direct flight from HKG to JFK using the A340-600HGW as they become available from circa late 2005.
 
cedarjet
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:25 am

SQ don't need to fly LHR-JFK, or, rather, they already do, seeing how they own 49% of Virgin Atlantic who serve the route thrice daily.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Leskova
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:32 am

CHRISBA777ER, why wouldn't BD's 332s have the range for LHR-HKG? AF flies 332s on CDG-KIX, which is about 200 miles longer...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:36 am

Blimey! Do they? Thats impressive... so how come AC dont use their A333's to Vancouver from LHR - surely the stretch can carry more fuel?

Oh well, I stand corrected. I do apologise.

CM
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Leskova
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:44 am

CHRISBA777ER, actually, in theory, it should work - the 333s have a range (according to Airbus) of 10400km with full load of pax, LHR-YVR is around 7600km...

Concerning the 332s range - I was actually surprised as well when I saw it, but I just had a customer flying to Osaka a few days ago, on said AF flight operated by an A332, which is really the only reason why I knew it...  Big grin

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
alexchao
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:30 am

Hmm, if CX does begin LHR-JFK flights, will AA and BA members be able to accrue mileage on the transatlantic flights?

-alexchao
 
bombayhog
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:42 am

From the LHR Movements website:

AC0854 From Vancouver, Canada C-GHKX 330 25/11/2003 11:27
AC0855 To Vancouver, Canada C-GHKR 330 25/11/2003 13:54

So it looks like they do. Unless the poster of this info is mistaken.

RayChuang, why would CX give up the LHR-JFK route? This is a very lucrative market, one which I'm sure every airline in the world would love to serve. I assume CX will have the right to fly passengers just between New York and London, like they do currently with their JFK-YVR that continues onward to HKG. The LHR-JFK route, I'm sure, has very little to do with connecting passengers in that direction to HKG. Therefore, whether they start a non-stop flight JFK-HKG going west on the A346 is irrelevant. They would still want the JFK-LHR flight as a nice little money-maker.
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 4:25 am

I was under the impression SQ and CX both have Us approval, it is just the UK that was holding it back.

Have SQ been refused landing rights? Or have they been refused flying the route from the UK authorities?

Singapore has open skies with the US, hence they have the rights to any international gateway via any intermediate point.

From the UK authorities, they were offered the rights to fly between LHR and the US WITHOUT picking up cargo and paxs between the two countries. They understandably chose not to exercise those rights.

In their discussions, the UK has also offered CAAS (Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore - the body that negotiates rights) transatlantic fifth freedoms ex-MAN in exchange for dropping all requests for fifth freedoms ex-LHR. CAAS turned down this offer as well.

The UK's "rationale" for not granting SQ fifth freedoms is because they want to see how the US-UK bilateral works out before deciding on rights for third country carriers. Guess this won't work anymore. Whatever the case, DL, CO, NW, BD must all be livid....


SQ don't need to fly LHR-JFK, or, rather, they already do, seeing how they own 49% of Virgin Atlantic who serve the route thrice daily.

I can confirm that even with its stake in VS, SQ still wants to fly LHR-US using its own aircraft.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:39 am

Bombayhog,

I hate to say this, but there are so many flights already between JFK and LHR just from AA, BA, UA and VS (plus single flights from a couple of other airlines) that I don't think CX will make much money on this route. CX would be better-served by a direct HKG to JFK flight using the upcoming A340-600HGW, a route that could have quite a lot of premium traffic considering both New York City and Hong Kong are major business centers.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:16 am

any chance that VS is going to tap into HKG-SYD already early next year? i need to get to BNE in early March and i´d love to travel with VS.

cheers
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:16 am

We can also rest assured that Bethune and Mullin are going to raise absolute holy Hell over this.

Give 'em until Friday... Monday at the latest!
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
artsyman
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:30 am

I have to agree that this is ridiculous. DL, NW, CO etc have been fighting for years to get into LHR to fly the routes to New York, and the British Government will not open it at all, yet CX out of nowhere can fly it just as a swap with Virgin.

Why does the US allow CX to fly the route ?

J
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:39 am

Why does the US allow CX to fly the route ?

Not to mention the plight of SQ.

BA has made a mini-focus at SQ's one and only hub, and flies both of its flagship routes.... yet SQ has basically been told to take a long walk off a short pier, every time it asks for any freedoms ex-LHR

In accord with Artsyman, allowing CX to fly LHR-NYC is unreasonable.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Sydscott
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:40 am


As ConcordeBoy says this will raise hell with the likes of Continental, Delta and NWA. But on the whole its a great deal. The following link provides an Australian story for you to read on it.

http://www.tradingroom.com.au/news_research/index.jsp?page=aap_article.jsp&id=48828

This also means that CX finally has its first round the world route which has been an ambition of theirs for quite some time now. The more interesting thing, from the Qantas perspective, is how much of a stink Geoff Dixon will kick up about Virgin being allowed to do LHR-Hong Kong-Sydney when QF is not able to. QF have been trying for quite some time to get access to that route without success by blocking Cathay access to SYD-LAX and additional rights into Australia. Maybe this will see them give some ground because I'd love to see QF and Virgin Atlantic go head to head on the Kangaroo route.

Interestingly if CX gets Sydney-LAX rights it means they will have 2 round the world routes. They are obviously trying to be a truely international carrier and it'll be interesting to see if this is a taste of the future or whether they will lose money.
 
jupiter2
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:54 am

In relation to the VS HKG/SYD sector, I was under the impression that for Hong Kong to grant these rights then Australia wanted something in return, namely QF rights to fly HKG/LHR.
If and when that is granted I would expect to see VS flying to SYD via HKG, not before.
RL
 
dutchjet
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 7:03 am

When CX does start service between NYC and London, passengers originating in New York will have the choice to fly CX via London (I imagine the flight will operate JFK-LHR-HKG and probably with a 744) and, if the schedules do not change, via Vancouver - kind of interesting - you can choose which ocean you want to fly over - and both routings are offered by the same carrier. Rather unique; I cant think of another 2 cities pairs that are linked by one carrier (code-shares dont count!) that offer that choice.

If a JFK-LHR-HKG route is launched by CX, will it mean that the long anticipated nonstop service between JFK and HKG will be put on hold for the foreseeable future? If you remember, CX went as far as announcing nonstop service between JFK and HKG at one time to be operated by special configuration A343s, and then, for various reasons (ie, world events and the world economy), dropped the idea.

I am sure that CO and DL will be very troubled by CX being able to offer service into LHR from the New York area, something both airlines have wanted for years.......and we can understand why. However, 2 different sets of rules are being applied (and we can discuss whether its fair or not fair forever) and the fact that CX will fly this route has little to do with CO and DL request to serve LHR......will Bermuda 2 ever be renegotiated?
 
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Richard28
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 7:32 am

If they wanted to (I doubt however the logistics would work!) CX could schedule planes flying clockwise (or earth-rotation wise!) HKG-YVR-JFK-LHR-HKG, and others flying anti clockwise (anti earth-rotation wise!) HKG-LHR-JFK-YVR-HKG.

They could even offer a "round the world" oneworld mile accruing ticket - HKG to HKG - you choose which direction!

that would be a first!

 Big grin  Big grin
 
BD1959
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 7:47 am

Can anyone confirm that agreement is specifically LHR-JFK and HKG-SYD? I've seen 'Transatlantic' and 'Australia' also listed as the agreement in various news items.

BD1959
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:03 am

This is an unacceptable and intolerable situation to be in.

It is wholly unfair, unjust and stupid to allow some airline who has only waited four years to fly this route while not allowing Singapore Airlines Limited who have waited for about 10 years no access.

The mind boggles as to how an airline, regularly voted by Business Traveller UK magazine, and hence a higher quality airline in the eyes of its readers and surveyants over the years, has been stopped in its tracks, while other airlines including Kuwait Airways, Air India and even EVA Air have wonderful traffic rights LHR - JFK.

The UK Government's White Paper of 1998 to liberalise air traffic is a farce. The United States of America even before Open Skies with Singapore as far as I know, gave Singapore Airlines the rights to fly LHR - JFK / ORD once a week! (which was what SIA asked for). For this airline to suddenly swan in and take this is simply a disastrous faliure of UK air traffic rights allocation.

And let us not also forget bmi British Midland - a UK airline, which has been asking for LHR - U.S.A. rights for probably as long as Singapore Airlines, being overstepped by this airline from China.

I personally have now lost faith in this government. I have revoked my membership of the Labour Party. I have made my views very clear to the Department of Transport's Press Office and the Labour Party Membership HQ.

This whole scenario is an abomination and an insult.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:07 am

while other airlines including Kuwait Airways, Air India and even EVA Air have wonderful traffic rights LHR - JFK.

AI's rights are grandfathered... they've been flying from Heathrow to the USA longer than any other airline!
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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Richard28
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:13 am

Yikes, imagine if SQ were granted access LHR-JFK, that would cause a bit of strife in the VS board room!

SQ dont allow VS to fly LHR-SIN, as its their most popular route - VS on the other hand's most popular route is LHR-JFK!

I'm all for libaeralisation, however, this can only come when LHR gets that damn 3rd runway!
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:23 am

"SQ dont allow VS to fly LHR-SIN, as its their most popular route - VS on the other hand's most popular route is LHR-JFK!"

Of course not. Singapore Airlines Limited owns 49% of Virgin Atlantic Airways. It would be uncomprehensionable for them to fly a route and compete so blatantly against their 49% owner. Their efforts would be much more fruitful by competing against rival airlines like to HKG and then onwards to break a duopoly from that city to SYD.

However, I can see how such an argument could backfire for the LHR - JFK route. But that's not the case here. Singapore Airlines want to fly LHR - JFK and Virgin codeshare in Economy Class on all flights LHR - SIN v.v. anyway.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Sydscott
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:34 am


Singapore, the current agreement is a classic one of both Airlines getting what they wanted. Virgin has been desparate to get into the HK-SYD run for ages because its one of, if not the most profitable way to do the Kangaroo Route. Plus Cathay gets its first round the world route.

SIA didn't get access simply because it wasn't in anyones interest to let them have access. BA already flies to Singapore and beyond to Australia so theres nothing to be gained by them. SQ owns half of Virgin so theres nothing to be gained there. BMI is covered by the Bermuda II treaty so they can't do anything and dont want to fly to Singapore. So therefore SQ wont be allowed to fly beyond LHR to the US because there is nothing for the UK or its carriers to be gained by allowing them to do so.
 
Sydscott
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:54 am


Concorde I did specify that it was "Cathays" first round the world route. There are numerous other airlines that have in the past flown round the world routes and may still to do. But I did specify "Cathay".  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:03 am

Ah, that you did... my bad, didnt even read it right. Silly me Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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Richard28
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:31 am

Singapore_Air - that was precisely my point!!
 
docpepz
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:35 am

Yes we can whine. We can whine about why BA flies SIN-SYD and SIN-MEL both daily with a 744 while SQ can't get LHR-JFK.

Sorry Singapore_Air but even though SQ is one of my favourite airlines, let us look at this rationally so please don't take this as a personal attack on you.

Thing is, its all about both sides wanting something. BA ALREADY has the rights ex SIN so they never bargained for more. SIA was desperate for LHR JFK. so one side is desperate, one side is not, nothing is gained.

Whereas now you have VS (49% owned by Singapore Airlines Limited, the greatest airline in the world) from the Brit side desperate for HKG SYD (which they don't have) and CX desperate for LHR JFK. So with 2 parties needing something, a deal is reached.

And remember, Along with BA came QF to SIN which is GOOD for SIN. If SIN revokes BA's right to fly to Australia, BA can always move to KUL or some other place. SIN is not indespensible to BA and QF. Unforunately, LHR is for SQ.

SQ, I assure you, will not be bothered with CX (pardon the foul language, S_Air!! ) being able to operate LHR-JFK. Besides prestige, it would not have contributed much to their bottom line. One daily flight for LHR-JFK cannot compete with the (however many) daily flights provided by BA, VS, UA and AA.

On the other hand, if SQ halts all (erm...3) daily flights to LHR in retaliation, The BAA is not going to beg them to come back.

Perhaps it might be a loss of face. But face doesn't count in the business world. It's the bottomline.

If anything, it was because VS, 49% owned by Singapore Airlines Limited - A proud member of Star Alliance - was desperate to operate HKG-SYD, that resulted in this. At least now you cannot blame the British Civil Aviation Authority (whatever they are called) for bias towards BA or against VS. They clearly acted in VS's interests and for that, I applaud them.

That is the reality of the business world. A tough world out there!

About Up to 85% of SQ's USA flights do not have pax originating in SIN, but either in other South East Asian destinations or in their intermediate destinations in Seoul, Taipei, Hong Kong Tokyo, Frankfurt or Amsterdam.

Of course in the past it could be argued that SQ NEEDED to stop somewhere en route to the US since there wasn't a plane long enough for that range. It turned out to be a blessing in disguise since most of the revenue generated for SQ in the US ultimately came FROM those intermediate destinations.

Is it fair that SQ can operate a daily LAX-AA), Japan">NRT flight when JAL doesn't use any fifth freedom rights out of Singapore? Is it fair that in return for daily flights to New York from Frankfurt for SQ, all LH does is a daily flight to Jakarta from SIN?

Is it fair that SIA can fly 10 times a week from Seoul to Vancouver and San Francisco, and daily from Seoul to Bangkok, while Korean Air/Asiana don't use any fifth freedom rights beyond SIN?

In the business world, we win some, we lose some. Emotions don't count. It's all about "what do I have to gain"

Remember - in the case of HK and the UK, both sides had airlines with strong wants. In the case of Singapore and the UK, only the Singapore side had a strong want. It's so simple!
 
mandala499
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:42 am

Can't pinpoint the reason why... BUT i JUST CAN'T STOP LAUGHING READING THIS!

SQ buys VS to gain access to LHR-N.America...
VS allows itself to be bought to gain better exposure in Asia....

CX wants an LHR-US route... so does SQ... Well, ironically for SQ, the fairest way is to gove CX the LHR-US and give VS the LHR-HKG-OZ route ! LOL

Why does this remind me of the AirNZ debacle again?

Laughing to the bank...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Sydscott
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RE: CX To Fly London - New York

Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:52 am


Why does it remind you of the AirNZ debacle Mandala??? What does CX having a daily flight between LHR and JFK and Virgin a daily between HK and SYD have to do with Air New Zealand biting off way more than it could chew by buying an airline with high costs that was being out competed in its home market and was losing millions of dollars a day???

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