rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

Business Class Airline

Sat Nov 29, 2003 2:48 pm

I have an idea for an airline and I'm wondering what everyone thinks about it.

Take 737NGs and make them all business class. Operate them on premium routes out of key business cities, i.e. NYC-LAX, ORD-SFO, etc etc. There are many possible route combinations. So instead of having around 130 seats these planes would have around 75. Onboard you can have gourmet meals and great service...everything Midwest Express did but this time on routes with ACTUAL premium traffic. At the same time costs will be low by using new planes and by keeping the planes flying most of the day. Hopefully, attractive fares and great service would attract lots of loyal passengers.

I know many people are against the idea of an all premium airline but I think it could work if it flew the right routes. Midwest was consistently voted #1 domestic airline in the US but Midwest didn't fly between cities with lots of business traffic.

So any thoughts?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
airxliban
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: Business Class Airline

Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:12 pm

privatair are doing this with 737s.

internationally, though.

i suppose this could work as a subsidiary of a major airline, therefore providing the passengers with mileage programs and connections and such.

yeah why not, at least from my uninformed perspective.

Air Liban
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
wgw2707
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Business Class Airline

Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:27 pm

There could possibly be a market for more business-oriented airlines in the years ahead similiar to Midwest. Midwest however does actually serve routes with quite a bit of business traffic, as I imagine relatively few people fly to Milwaukee, Columbus or Minneapolis/St. Paul on holiday Big grin

At present however the demand for business-class travel is rather low and Midwest is having some financial trouble. An airline such as this could probably only succeed if it followed a quasi-low cost model in today's world, and it might be better to wait until the next booming economy before launching such an airline.

-WGW2707
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Business Class Airline

Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:28 pm

Your wish is my command.

http://www.primarisairlines.com

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Business Class Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:18 am

privatair are doing this with 737s.

internationally, though.


Not the way the author of this thread dreams it up. Privatair sells business class service at a business class fares. What the author wants is business class service at WN-advertised fares. And, economically, that's just not realistic.

[Edited 2003-11-29 16:18:45]
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

Business Class Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 1:24 am

It would have to follow a low cost model such as keeping the utilization rate high, turnaround times fast, and other costs low.

And imagine if Midwest made some money from Milwaukee, what can be made out of New York?

Alpha, I didn't mean to give the impression that they would be WN fares.

I just did a quick search on fares from JFK-LAX for a roundtrip flight next week.

290 roundtrip on JetBlue to LGB
272 roundtrip with a connecting flight
489 nonstop on United or American
1,000 in first/business class on the majors...similiar price for an unrestricted coach ticket.

So a premium airline could charge more than the coach fare but less than the first class fare...Something like $600. That way you capture pax who are paying the 490 but know the service will suck and are willing to pay slightly more...and you also capture the pax who would buy the unrestricted coach ticket or first class ticket. Pricing would be a complicated issue but if you find the right fare between coach and first, I think this airline could work.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: The Captain Of Air Force One

Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:54 am

FLY777, Primaris Airlines is a perfect example of what I think is a good airline idea...Although I find the route structure odd. EWR-DEN ahead of other more possible profitable routes. I would think that EWR-MIA or EWR-IAH would come ahead of EWR-DEN. Methinks flying to Paris will hurt them too.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
LastBaron
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:55 am

RE: Business Class Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 7:06 am

There is a proposal already o the books but suffering from lack of first round funding, to fly out of TPA and be something just as you envision. It is called Crystal Airways - http://www.crystalairways.com/. So far they have been unable to achieve first-round financing.

The premium airlines of the past, MGM Grand Air, Air One, and to a lesser extent, Legacy, all have shown that this will never really work. Even with the current "let them eat cake" U.S. administration in power, there are simply not enough business and first class full-fare passengers out there to make it work.  Yeah sure
 
wgw2707
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Business Class Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:49 pm

LastBaron, you were doubtless referring to Legend. Actually though those business class airlines were failures, Legend might have succeeded had they not been bogged down with litigation for four years before they were allowed to begin operations. It's a shame that that occured, that would have been an interesting airline. Also don't forget, though those business class airlines have been failures, Midwest Express, which is definitely all business class, has been a success. They were a resounding success in the boom years of the late 1990s when the major airlines were developing such a bad reputation for poor customer service, and even now have managed to avoid bankruptcy and are holding out for the forseeable future. Another airline largely oriented to business class travel in Europe (although with a conventional two-class cabin), SN Brussels Airline, has been one of the most inspiring success stories in recent aviation history.

It will be interesting to see if any more business class airlines are launched...if another one is launched, I personally believe that it would be wise to consider, instead of a hub, catering to different high-yield point-to-point markets that are usually devoid of non-stop service, such as Privatair's EWR-DUS route.

-WGW2707
 
tcfc424
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:56 am

RE: Business Class Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:04 pm

I too, have wondered about the possibilities of this type of airline materializing. I think that the way the US airline industry is headed, it would not be unheard of to see majors working mainly coach or "LCC" type service, with another airline or subsidiary working LCFC (low-cost first-class)...i.e. First or business for the price of unrestricted coach. Obviously, it would have to operate from a hub that would not require years of litigation (e.g. Legend and DAL) and would sustain high F loads...MIA, SFO, LAX, NYC and to some extent DIA and IAH.

I, personally would love to see this...it would be interesting to see a co-op between WN or B6 and this LCFC...a major on two different levels? Imagine UA operating "TED" and "UNI"...the LCC and the LCFC, respectively, or DL operating "Song" and "yet to be named" respectively. It is interesting discussion, and I do not think this is too far off the mark, though I fear this may signify the end of the middle class in America...just my thoughts.

Mike
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Business Class Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:05 pm

WGW2707, I agree completely with you. If Legend and AA hadn't been fighting so much, Legend might be here today. And while they were around they received great praise.

If a business class airline started today and operated on high yielding point to point routes such as JFK-LAX, and had great service, I think it would thrive.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
tcfc424
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:56 am

RE: Business Class Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:09 pm

RJ...

I am very interested in this idea, as I have had the same idea, or at least a very similar idea...email me...tcfc424@yahoo.com.

Mike
 
tcfc424
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:56 am

RE: Business Class Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:25 pm

Looking at Midwest's route map, it almost seems obvious why they are not highly successful...MKE is not (to my knowledge) that big of an F destination. I would think that a MIA, JFK, or LAX hub would be optimal, as those are locations with high F yields...and they are not providing an F product, they are providing a Y+ product...
 
penguinflies
Posts: 932
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 12:00 pm

RE: Business Class Airline

Sun Nov 30, 2003 8:18 pm

Dallas kinda worked for Legend. They didn't budget legal fees well among other expenses that killed them. But their idea proved successful with their forcasting of revenue and passenger enplanements.
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
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RE: Business Class Airline

Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:33 am

What is happening with Legend's terminal and car park now? Are they still there?

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Business Class Airline

Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:18 am

No idea FLy777. But while Legend was in Dallas they did do very well, just the darned legal battle....oh well.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
B4REAL
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RE: Business Class Airline

Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:02 pm

Rjpieces's Idea won't work on its own, in my opinion.

It needs a 'big-brother' backing by an established airline in the US, in my opinion.

It would need to be a 'product' of a large offering. DL would be a great candidate to add another offering and confuse travellers even more  Smile

No seriously, if someone ever bought YX and dropped their YX Saver routes and focused on their core premium product and utilized an aircraft with coast-to-coast range, now you are talking.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: AA A300's To Hawaii

Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:07 pm

"No seriously, if someone ever bought YX and dropped their YX Saver routes and focused on their core premium product and utilized an aircraft with coast-to-coast range, now you are talking."

What is the difference between that and what I proposed?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
B4REAL
Posts: 2559
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:53 am

RE: Business Class Airline

Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:12 pm

No difference, when I said "Now you are talking" - I meant, now Rjpieces is on to something. So I'm saying 'You're on to something'

B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Business Class Airline

Mon Dec 01, 2003 3:03 pm

Their 717's should be capable of trans-con with about 66 passengers onboard based on Boeing's 717 Corporate Jet model...

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
uadc8contrail
Posts: 1636
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RE: Business Class Airline

Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:55 pm

any1 in here remember grand air?????lions on the tail,dc8s lax-jfk mid-late 80s???all first/biz class...forbes did a article about that not to long ago about how time share a/c have taken off and used grand as a example of how a airline can not compete against warren buffet and his privates.....u can not do a lcc with f/c service and expect to make it unless ure paying the staff minimum wages,,,,most lax-jfk movers/shakers are flying privates and letting the help(albeit)major help fly f/c and get the corp discounts
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: AA A300's To Hawaii

Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:35 am

Hmm, they were before my time. Can anyone tell me what type of routes Air One and MGM Grand Air flew. Why did those airlines crash?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"