N62NA
Topic Author
Posts: 4006
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

EWR Vs JFK

Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:09 pm

OK, the SAS flying only to EWR post has degenerated into a "which is better, EWR or JFK" so I figured I would open a new post to continue this topic (and add my thoughts!)


JFK is generally thought of as the prestigious New York area airport. The JFK routes are more prestigious.


As a kid growing up in the 70s and 80s in northern NJ, it always DID seem like JFK got the "better" planes - at least when making apples to apples comparisons of airlines and routes. UA , TW and AA flew 747s JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO, while EWR got AA 707s, TW 707s and UA DC8s (and a rare UA D10 or 747).

To this day, the "prestige" services between NYC and LAX/SFO by AA and UA are still from JFK on 762 and 763 aircraft. You won't find yourself crammed on an UA A320 or AA 738 on JFK-LAX... It's EWR-LAX that gets the narrowbody planes from these airlines (though AA will be retaining a single 763 EWR-LAX once they introduce the 738).

Just to show this wasn't/isn't restricted solely to the the NYC-LAX/SFO routes, back in the 70s, where did NA fly their 747s from between NYC and MIA? JFK of course! And that short period of time when EA flew 747s to MIA and SJU. It was from JFK.

To summarize, it seems like the "old school" airlines that are still around (such as UA, AA, NW) still regard JFK as the premiere NYC airport for trans-cons and international flights (a throwback to the dawning of the jet age perhaps when JFK's Terminal City truly was world class - especially compared to EWR pre-Terminals A/B/C?).
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:17 pm

To summarize, it seems like the "old school" airlines that are still around (such as UA, AA, NW) still regard JFK as the premiere NYC airport for trans-cons and international flights (a throwback to the dawning of the jet age perhaps when JFK's Terminal City truly was world class - especially compared to EWR pre-Terminals A/B/C?).

A pretty fair assessment, I'd say.
JFK today is also getting known as the area's main low-cost airport thanks to the rise of B6.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
jsnww81
Posts: 2297
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:12 am

To summarize, it seems like the "old school" airlines that are still around (such as UA, AA, NW) still regard JFK as the premiere NYC airport for trans-cons and international flights (a throwback to the dawning of the jet age perhaps when JFK's Terminal City truly was world class - especially compared to EWR pre-Terminals A/B/C?).

I'd say so. The old EWR terminal (pre-1973) was basically a giant steel shed with open-air wooden gangplanks attached to it. Hardly a showcase airfield.
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:27 am

I flew out JFK yesterday - kinda ridiculous to pay $45 for a cab from Manhattan. That the same price that I pay for flight to BUF. JFK has the worst and most expensive commute among all major airport. The same EWR.
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:36 am

I usually take the subway to JFK from Manhattan and it costs me $2.00  Smile Or if I'm in a hurry, grab the bus for $11 or whatever it is nowadays. $45 is a bit high, isn't there a set price like $30 or did that go up?

Michael
 
COEWRNJ
Posts: 1000
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:46 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:52 am

I would take EWR any day over JFK. I have never flown out of JFK but been there many times to pick people up. It is a disaster to get to. First it has taken me up to two and a half hours to get there because of the Belt pkwy. Next once you get there I don't know if its gotten better but we had to park by the Delta terminal when we needed to be at the AA terminal and than had to wait for a van which seemed to take forever in those great northeast winter days and after that it was 15min ride to the terminal. Not to mention driving around JFK is a pain in the neck in itself. Anyway you get my point. I would prefer EWR's easy circle terminal plan any day and of coarse its much easier to get to for me.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13201
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:05 am

"NYC and LAX/SFO by AA and UA are still from JFK on 762 and 763 aircraft"

True but with AA and UAL's impending retirement of their 767-200 fleets and UAL's lingering bankruptcy, plus the loss of revenues from the encroachment of low fare airlines like Jetblue and soon Song on Trans-con routes out of JFK does anyone honestly believe that AA and UAL will continue to operate all widebody service from JFK to LAX and SFO.

I think within the next two years most of UAL's trans-con flights from JFK will either go 757s and A320s, some flights may be dropped all together.

CO is currently operating 2-3 767-200s from EWR-LAX and 1 from EWR-SFO, CO's 767-200s are brand new and will be operating long after AA and UAL's are retired. AA and UAL's likely replacement for their 767-200s are 757s, they both have over 100 757s.

AA will probably stick with 767-300s on their LAX-JFK route, but a mixture of 757s and 767-300s is possible for that route and JFK-SFO.

DL is probably going to turn over their Trans-con flying over to Song, even if they don't they are operating mostly 757s from JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA etc..

And I think folks are getting too hung up on the LAX and SFO transcon widebody flights from JFK, it's nice they offer that service but that does not make up for the fact that UAL that has a major hub in Denver does not even offer one daily flight from JFK. Or how about Chicago, Chicago has the second largest business district in the US and UAL who are headquartered there cannot even offer one daily flight from JFK?..

Im sorry but widebody service from JFK-LAX and SFO does not meet or equal the services at EWR that cater to Business travelers.

JFK attracts low fare customers, EXCEPT.. on flights that are not offered from JFK (ie. LAX, SFO).





Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
9V-SPF
Posts: 1340
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 6:42 pm

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:11 am

$45 is a bit high, isn't there a set price like $30 or did that go up?

There´s only a "flatrate" for the trip from JFK to Manhattan but not on the way back and it was $35 when I was there the last time (tip and bridge/tunnel fees not included of course).
A cab driver once told me that the flatrate was introduced in order to prevent the drivers from ripping off unexperienced tourists and NYC-newbies after their arrival but I don´t know if he was right.

Daniel
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:39 am

It's so hard to compare the two, it's almost like apples and oranges. It's certainly impossible to say outright that either one is "better" than the other all around. Each has its pros and cons, although the exact balance of pros and cons is different depending on whom you ask. So, as a lifelong New Yorker who regularly flies out of both airports (not to mention LaGuardia, which is sort of special...don't want to confuse the issue here!), I will attempt to make an unbiased, balanced comparison between the two in specific areas, which IMHO is the only fair way to do this.

1. Access to airport. This totally depends on where you are coming from. Newark will always be more convenient for anyone in Jersey, and JFK will always be easier to get to from Brooklyn, Queens and Long Island. That's just simple geography, end of story. Manhattan is where it gets a bit trickier. Traditionally, Newark has been more of a haul, but the Airtrain changed all that. It's true that the $11, 20-minute train ride from Penn Station is a compelling option, but on the other hand it's not so great when your flight arrives at Newark after 11 pm, when trains run VERY infrequently (I speak from experience here). Taking a cab to or from Manhattan, however, is prohibitively expensive (can be over $60, depending on your destination). To JFK, on the other hand, the subway is a bit of a schlep, but definitely cheap. A taxi will run you about $30 plus tip and tolls, give or take, to the airport, and going into the city it's a $35 flat rate...not cheap, but nowhere near as astronomical as the Newark cabs. So, going to or from Manhattan, it really depends on several factors: how close you are to Penn Station, how much luggage you're carrying (the train isn't exactly luggage-friendly), what time of day you're traveling, and how many people you're with (don't forget, a $35 cab fare cheaper than 4 $11 train tickets). And, note that this whole equation will change again once AirTrain JFK finally opens.

2. Terminal infrastructure. About 5 years ago, Newark was the winner, hands down. JFK was, for the most part, a stinking hole--especially the dreaded, windowless, I.A.B. Ugh. That in itself accounts for much of Newark's growth, especially internationally. However, that has changed dramatically in recent years, thanks to the new T1 and T4, and renovations at the other terminals. T3 is still difficult, and I try to avoid it, but T1 and T4 can hold their own against anything Newark has to offer--or any other world-class airport in the world, for that matter. T7 is decent since it was renovated, T6 is getting old but JetBlue makes the best of it, and T8/9 is currently a construction zone but will be beautiful if/when it's finished. At Newark, Terminal C (used by CO) is beautiful, especially the new int'l arrivals area, but A and B are much less impressive. Again, no clear winner--each has its high and low points.

3. Domestic service. Newark has a clear advantage here, thanks to CO's hub. There are nonstops to lots of places that you can't get to nonstop from either JFK or LGA. However, JFK is becoming more popular for domestic travelers thanks to JetBlue (and now Song), and for transcons, JFK has more premium widebody service.

4. International service. JFK definitely still has an edge here. CO has added a lot of international flights, so Newark is definitely becoming a more compelling option--especially since there are now a few cities served nonstop from Newark but not JFK--but for most international airlines, if they serve one NY airport, it's JFK. Because of its historical importance, JFK is generally perceived as NY's premier international gateway, while Newark is used more for overflow when airlines can't get additional slots or gates at JFK (SQ and LH have done this). Then there are airlines that have or once had agreements with CO (SK in the past, and currently BR), and the special case of TP, which serves the large Portuguese community in Newark itself. Yes, MH and MX fly into Newark a few times a week, but look at the long, impressive list of JFK-only international carriers: AM, AR, BW, CA, CI, CX, EI, IB, JL, KU, LA, MA, NH, OA, RG, SA, SU, SV, TK, and many others.

5. Connections. Until the AirTrain is up and running at JFK, Newark will continue to be much more connection-friendly. At JFK, it's not so bad if both of your flights are at the same terminal, but heaven forbid you have to change terminals--what a mess. At Newark, most connections are likely to be on CO anyway, but even if you had to change terminals, the monorail makes it very easy.

So, as you can see, it's impossible to say either airport is "better" than the other. Better for specific things, and for specific people going specific places, absolutely. But each has a lot to offer, and each deserves respect.

[Edited 2003-12-03 17:48:11]
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
N62NA
Topic Author
Posts: 4006
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:54 am


I'm sorry but widebody service from JFK-LAX and SFO does not meet or equal the services at EWR that cater to Business travelers.

Granted, CO has recently added 762s EWR-LAX and EWR-SFO, but I was actually making a more apples to apples comparison in terms of AA and UA in particular.


True but with AA and UAL's impending retirement of their 767-200 fleets and UAL's lingering bankruptcy, plus the loss of revenues from the encroachment of low fare airlines like Jetblue and soon Song on Trans-con routes out of JFK does anyone honestly believe that AA and UAL will continue to operate all widebody service from JFK to LAX and SFO.


Actually, that's something I haven't considered. What WILL UA and AA do on their JFK-LAX/SFO routes once their 762s are gone? 777s probably not. 763s possibly. Will be very interesting to see if they go AA 763/757/738 and UA 757/A320. Time will tell...

 
ssides
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:01 am

I've flown in and out of both airports, and they both have their pros and cons. I flew AA Eagle to JFK in Sept. then connected to an AA JFK-LHR flight, and the small, under-construction terminal was a pain, but I know that's just the construction.

In any event, I've never understood why JFK gets the "prestige" transcon routes but hardly any other domestic traffic. AA only has one DFW-JFK flight per day (sometimes two, depending on the season). AA has ZERO ORD-JFK flights as well. Seems like there are hardly any major domestic routes from JFK, except for transcons. Yet, the majors always route their big transcon planes from JFK. Any explanation?
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
RiverVisualNYC
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:11 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:06 am

No matter which airport you choose, I encourage fellow a.net members to come visit NYC, we need the business! Anyway, some assorted points from a New Yorker living in Manhattan:
1) JFK is in the New York City borough of Queens (as is LGA); EWR of course is in the State of New Jersey, not New York. The only reason it is considered an official airport for NYC is that it is run by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, a bi-state organization. There is an amusing historical story from the '30s about our feisty Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia making a fuss about an airline that flew him to EWR when he had bought a ticket to New York, which Newark is clearly not. He was so upset, he got an airport built within the city that was eventually named after him.
2). Because it is not in New York City, you cannot get a metered New York City yellow taxi to take you to the City from EWR, only a Newark taxi. Newark taxis are practically unregulated compared to NYC taxis, and many of these cabs are literally falling apart. Alot of visitors arriving at EWR have a bad taxi experience and incorrectly attribute it to NYC.
3). EWR has had better rail access than JFK, with the NJ Transit/Airtrain connection, but in a couple of weeks the JFK Airtrain will open and there will be a comparable connection between the Long Island Railroad (or NYC subway) and the JFK Airtrain.
4). EWR is dominated by CO, JFK offers a greater choice of airlines and destinations. At one time you could save money by flying CO out of EWR vs other majors from JFK, especially when CO was trying to establish itself after bankruptcy and had taken over the hub from PE, but today, because of more competition at JFK and CO's dominance at EWR, there is sometimes a premium to be paid for flying out of EWR.
5). Along with the Airtrain project, alot of money has been spent to develop JFK over the last few years, including the new International building, the new Terminal 1, and the renovation of Terminal 7. JFK has something like 8 or 9 terminals vs. EWR's 3, so your JFK experience largely depends on what airline and terminal you are using, as some are very modern and some are very outdated (such as the Delta Terminal 3 facility).
6). In sum, the whole comparison is a bit of a wash, based on where you want to fly, airline preference, lowest fare, and importantly for the NYC area, where you live or work. Basically, the distance from the City to EWR and JFK is the same, but in different directions. In my experience, if you are in or going to uptown Manhattan or the East side, or anyplace east of that (Queens, Brooklyn, Long Island), JFK is the better choice. If we are talking lower Manhattan, the West side, Staten Island or anywhere in Northern NJ, EWR is more convenient. Of course LGA is undisputedly closer to the city than either of those, but does not offer longhaul or much international service.
 
haveric
Posts: 1219
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 9:31 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:12 am

All 3 NYC airports are genuinely miserable places. They have poor transport connections, poor terminal facilities, and are not user friendly. Compared to major airports in other large US ciites, NYC has subpar facilities -- none of which NYC should be proud of.


 
ssides
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:12 am

Another point: if you live within the LGA perimeter and not in Miami or a JetBlue destination, good luck finding a non-stop to JFK!
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:19 am

Haveric, that may have been true in the past, but it doesn't sound like you've flown in or out of NYC lately. When was your last visit to JFK, LGA, or EWR? And which terminal did you use? I don't mean to grill you or put you on the spot--it's just that as a New Yorker I'm genuinely proud of the improvements that have been made at all three airports in recent years, so I'm curious about what led you to that assessment.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13201
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:27 am

Comparison of select flights to US "Business" centers from EWR and JFK..

JFK-Atlanta
DL 2 767-300
Song 1 757
DL connection 5 CRJ
total 8 daily flights

EWR-Atlanta
DL 7 737-800, 2 757, 3 M80
Airtran 4 717
CO 9 737s (300s and 500s)
total 25 daily flights

JFK-Boston
AA Eagle 5 ERJ (135, 140)
DL connection 5 FRJ, 1 CRJ
total 11 (Regional Jet) flights

EWR-Boston
AA Eagle 5 ERJ-135s
CO 7 737-300, 1 M80, 2 737-500, 1 737-700, 2 737-800
total 18 daily flights (mostly 737s)

JFK-Chicago (Ohare & Midway)
DL Connection 1 daily CRJ (Ohare)
total 1 daily (50 seat Regional Jet) flight!...

EWR-Chicago Midway
ATA 6 737-800
CO 1 737-300, 5 737-500

EWR-Chicago Ohare
AA 1 M80, 9 F-100
CO 9 737-500
UAL 5 737-300, 5 737-500, 3 A320

EWR-Chicago (Midway & Ohare) total 44 daily (no regional jet) flights

JFK-DFW
AA 3 M80
total 3 daily flights

EWR-DFW
AA 7 M80
CO 6 737-500
total 13 daily flights

JFK-Denver
Jetblue 1 A320
total 1 daily flight

EWR-Denver
CO 1 737-500, 2 737-700, 2 737-800
UAL 1 A320, 1 737-300, 2 757
total 9 daily flights

JFK-Detroit
DL Connection 1 CRJ
NWA 2 DC-9
total 3 daily flights

EWR-Detroit
COEX 2 ERJ
CO 2 737-300, 2 737-500
NWA 1 A320, 3 A319, 3 DC-9
total 13 daily flights

JFK-Mineapolis
NWA 1 DC-9
Suncountry 1 737-800
total 2 daily flights

EWR-Minneapolis
COEX 3 ERJ-145
CO 1 737-500, 1 737-700
NWA 2 A320, 2 A319, 2 DC-9
total 11 daily flights

JFK-New Orleans
Jetblue 1 A320
total 1 daily flight

EWR-New Orleans
CO 1 737-300, 3 737-700
total 4 daily flights

JFK-St.Louis
DL Connection 1 CRJ
total 1 daily (50 seat Regional Jet) flight

EWR-St.Louis
AA Eagle 4 daily ERJ
COEX 4 ERJ
CO 1 737-500
total 9 daily flights

JFK-Seattle
AA 1 757
DL 1 757
Jetblue 1 A320
total 3 daily flights

EWR- Seattle
AS 2 737-700
CO 2 737-700, 2 737-800
total 6 daily flights

JFK-Washington National
AA Eagle 3 ERJ
DL Connection 1 FRJ
DL 1 M80
total 5 daily flights

EWR- Washington National
COEX 4 ERJ
CO 6 737-500
total 9 daily flights

JFK-Montreal
AA Eagle 4 ERJ
total 4 daily flights

EWR-Montreal
AC 5 CRJ
COEX 5 ERJ
total 10 daily flights

JFK-Toronto
DL Connection 1 CRJ
total 1 daily (50 seat Regional Jet) flight

EWR-Toronto
AC 6 A319
COEX 3 ERJ
CO 1 737-300, 2 737-500
Jetsgo 3 M80
total daily flights 15 daily flights

Domestic US Cities served from EWR but not JFK..

Albany, Asheville, Augusta, Austin, Birmingham, Charleston SC, Charlotte, Columbia, Dayton, Daytona Beach, Fayetteville, Grand Rapids, Greensboro, Greenville/Spartanburg, Hartford, Honolulu, Huntsville, Kansas City, Knoxville, Lexington, Louisville, Madison, Manchester NH, Memphis, Milwaukee, Myrtle Beach, Montrose, Oklahoma City, Omaha, Portland ME, Portland OR, Providence, Richmond, San Antonio, Sarasota, Savanah, Steamboat Springs, Tucson, Tulsa, Vail

Domestic US Cities served from JFK but not EWR..
Long Beach, Ontario


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:29 am

Flatrate is $35 plus tolls and tip which always ends at $44-$46. Mikephotos - AFAIK there is no subway at JFK.
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:32 am

Many pax heading to one of those "business centers" would be likely to use LGA instead of JFK or EWR.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
RiverVisualNYC
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:11 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:32 am

Haveric- We are really proud of what IS being accomplished here given that we suffered the brunt of the 9/11 attacks and have to work with high costs and a huge and dense population. I will concede that unlike, say, Orlando, Las Vegas or even Chicago, we are not in a position to devote alot of public resources (ie local tax dollars) to make things comfy and convenient for tourists and conventioneers. However, as a New Yorker whose business has been hammered by the post-9/11 dropoff in tourism, I think most visitors will find the hassle worthwhile, and things are literally getting better every day. At JFK we have new and renovated terminals, the home of best LCC in the country, flat rate taxis and the AirTrain coming in a matter of weeks, at LGA we have a recently renovated main terminal with a foodcourt viewing area and a short taxi ride to midtown, and at EWR we AirTrain access and the international hub of the best major US carrier!
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:34 am

I'm going to fall into line with FoxBravo on this one. I fly into NYC fairly regularly (at least twice a year) due to my work with a nonprofit. As a nonprofit, our Chief of Staff books the cheapest ticket to NYC, regardless of which airport it's into (as in this past summer she booked a few people into ISP on WN). I have to admit I've never been booked into JFK, but in all cases where I was booked into EWR I've never had a problem getting around. EWR is, to me, the most user-friendly PANYNJ airport. I've never had a problem checking in, finding my way to the gates, getting between terminals, getting luggage, or getting into Manhattan. Airtrain and the EWR station for NJ Mass Transit is a godsend. I will admit that once into Manhattan, Penn Station can be somewhat offputting, but hopefully that will improve when Penn Station is relocated to the Farley Building.

As for LGA, my experience is mostly with the Delta and the USAirways Terminals, but the times I've used the CTB along with the DL and US Terminals, I've come away happy. Once again, no probs with any aspect except getting to LGA as one is dependant on taxis. Here's to hoping that Airtrain might one day connect LGA to the 7 line somehow.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24560
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:35 am

AA will probably stick with 767-300s on their LAX-JFK route, but a mixture of 757s and 767-300s is possible for that route and JFK-SFO.


All AA flights between JFK and LAX/SFO are 767-200ERs and it will stay that way. They are all outfitted with 3-class American Flagship service that are a key part of thier trans-Con service. The only other domestic routes that feature this service are JFK to Miami and Hamilton, Bermuda and Los Angeles to Miami.
a.
 
RiverVisualNYC
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:11 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:44 am

FYI just to stay on topic, remember that NYC or the PANYNJ has no influence over what type of aircraft serve what route. Those decisions are made in Dallas, Chicago, Houston, Atlanta etc. So if you were uncomfortable on a RJ to LGA or flying transcon on a 737, it wasn't our fault! I think all services to and from the NYC area should be operated by 747s or A340s, but then I am biased....
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:05 am

A couple of people have mentioned it, but I'll say it again--there's no question that EWR has more domestic service than JFK, but JFK doesn't NEED more domestic services. LGA is even closer to Manhattan, is extremely user friendly, and offers flights to just about everywhere between here and Denver. Because both airports cater primarily to O&D traffic rather than connecting passengers, this division between international and domestic flights is not a problem. Saying EWR is "better" than JFK because it has more flights to ATL or ORD is just plain silly.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
N62NA
Topic Author
Posts: 4006
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:27 am


FYI just to stay on topic, remember that NYC or the PANYNJ has no influence over what type of aircraft serve what route. Those decisions are made in Dallas, Chicago, Houston, Atlanta etc. So if you were uncomfortable on a RJ to LGA or flying transcon on a 737, it wasn't our fault!


Yes, that was the original intent of this topic... JFK seems to have got the more prestigious planes over the years when comparing to EWR route for route, airline for airline, as chosen by the airlines themselves.

However, it's nice to see how the topic has evolved!
 
RiverVisualNYC
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:11 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:35 am

Well, regardless of what equipment the beancounters in the south and midwest send to our airports, and regardless of what airport you arrive at, NYC will roll out the red carpet for you, even if it might be a little tattered these days! Internationally, I think the best comparison I can make to EWR vs JFK is LGW vs LHR, of course London has several other airports, but while both of these have international service, history has made LHR the prestige airport for London just as it has made JFK the prestige airport for NYC. It's no coincidence that connecting the two was the main function of the Concorde  Smile
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:39 am

Mikephotos - AFAIK there is no subway at JFK.

Danny....you might want to check that. I'm on the subway (A train) Monday thru Friday and pass Howard Beach/JFK 2 times daily. Yes, you still have to take a bus (for now) from HB/JFK to the JFK but it's still a cheap way if you have the time and feel comfortable riding NYC Transit. Tons of delays at times (trust me, I know) so I wouldn't recommend this option for most people.

Michael
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:52 am

Many pax heading to one of those "business centers" would be likely to use LGA instead of JFK or EWR.

I agree, I like to consider LGA as JFK's "domestic terminal"  Big grin
Using EWR vs. JFK or vv. really depends on where you live or work. Personally, I would never use EWR based on where I live, even if the fare were $100 lower. But since I work in Manhattan, I always consider flights departing EWR if I'm leaving after work but always prefer to fly back into JFK since I'm 10 minutes away. I really doubt someone on Long Island would say "hey, EWR has more domestic service to "Business Centers" than JFK, I think I'll cab it over to EWR..." ah, no. If you live in/near NJ then it's a no brainer to use EWR.

Michael
 
krisair747
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:06 pm

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:54 am

As far as inbound delays, you can't pay me enough to fly into EWR! Last night flying DL CVG-EWR, a little wind in EWR, and we are strapped with a 2 hour ATC hold. Horrible. At least JFK has the runway space.
Open your heart and push the limits
 
AeroAussie
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 1999 10:47 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:08 am

I would take EWR over JFK anyday. First of all, getting there is SO much easier. NJTransit/Amtrak....need I say more? At least the AirTrain service is functioning at EWR. JFKs service seems to suffer from delay after delay after delay, and still has yet to start. Second of all, anyone who has tried clearing immigration/customs as EWR vs JFK knows that EWR is a breeze. I only use JFK when I absolutely have to.
-Nick
 
RiverVisualNYC
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:11 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:15 am

AirTrain JFK will be starting on the 17th I believe, per yesterday's NY Times. There are some other threads here about it. It will be all new and both faster and larger than the Newark AirTrain which is not really a new train but a continuation of the old monorail system that connected the 3 terminals for years. As for anyone having a bad immigration line experience at JFK, it really depends on which of the 8 or 9 terminals you were in at what time of day. I recently breezed through Terminal 7 at JFK (BA/UA/CX/QF terminal) arriving at night from LHR, and yet had a very long wait at EWR arriving from CUN on CO in the afternoon because alot of their international flights, particularly from the Caribbean/Mexico, come in around the same time. Again, these issues are less a function of the city or the airport's management than of scheduling decisions made elsewhere and the number of inspectors the good ol' US government decides to have working at any given time. In the end, it's all luck of the draw and personal preference.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13201
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:21 am

"Last night flying DL CVG-EWR, a little wind in EWR, and we are strapped with a 2 hour ATC hold. Horrible. At least JFK has the runway space."

True but JFK has one disadvantage that causses frequent morning delays but rarely effects EWR or JFK, Fog. JFK is right on the Atlantic Ocean (separated by a little sliver of land known as the Rockaways), as often happens along the shore fog sets in some mornings and does not burn off until 11Am.

Going to College along the Jersey shore the weather difference between the Shore and my house about 25 minutes away can be dramatic.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
airjampanam
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:06 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:27 am

FoxBravo.. as a fellow New Yorker. that was a dead on assessment of the situation!
Well done... everyone else should re-read!
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:53 am

True but JFK has one disadvantage that causses frequent morning delays but rarely effects EWR or JFK, Fog. JFK is right on the Atlantic Ocean (separated by a little sliver of land known as the Rockaways), as often happens along the shore fog sets in some mornings and does not burn off until 11Am.

While we do get fog, it's not that often. I would say in the past month we had one or two foggy mornings, if that. How do I know? Well, I happen to be a Rockaway resident. It's rare that the fog lasts until 11am, haven't seen that in a long time. It does not cause frequent morning delays.

Michael
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13201
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:21 am

Fog is not really a Winter problem, but definetly Spring and Summer.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:48 am

I have never had a single one of my many flights in or out of JFK affected by fog. Nor'easters, yes, thunderstorms, yes, but fog, no.

This is getting a bit off topic, but compare that to AMS, where I think I have had fog-related delays nearly every time I have landed there (always in the morning, arriving from the U.S.), and even had to divert to CGN due to fog once.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
petazulu
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:32 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:53 am

As a fellow life long New Yorker- I agree with FoxBravo as well. LGA is the domestic terminal fo JFK. Comparing domestic services is a useless endeavor. Whta really got the original SAS thread cooking was the assertion by SST757 that EWR was the larger, more prestigious and more diverse international gateway for travellers (especially business) in NYC- which patently wrong and many levels.

Ever since I pointed this out to him- he has harped back to frequency of domestic services! Anyways- I think that issue is settled - unless someone wants to argue otherwise.  Smile
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:01 am

Petazulu-that's EXACTLY (caps for emphasis) why it would be a GREAT (again, caps for emphasis) idea for the PANYNJ to build an inside-security transfer system from one airport to the other so a passenger flying IND-ATH on Delta (for example) could make a connection from LGA to JFK, to make the connection to the European flight if heaven-forbid they couldn't get on the single Chautauqua ERJ flying from IND-JFK daily...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13201
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:06 am

"SST757 that EWR was the larger, more prestigious and more diverse international gateway for travellers (especially business) in NYC- which patently wrong and many levels"

I never stated "larger" , what I stated was that EWR is more of a business airport . I stand by that, the Port Authority's own figures confirm such.

LH flying their "All Business" class BBJ flights from EWR also confirms the fact, it's fact.

41% of EWR's travelers are business travelers, JFK's is only 25%.

JFK has lots of International flights, but many of those flights cater to huge Immigrant Communities of Brooklyn (Israel, Egypt, Pakistan, India, Trinidad, Guyanna), Queens ( Korea, Ireland, Jamaican), Manhattan ( China, Dominican Republic).

Where the only "Immigrant" driven International Route from EWR is Lisbon, all the other International routes are Business oriented.

Also FYI..

It's STT 757 , not SST 757. STT is the airport code for ST.Thomas USVI, the 757 part is obvious. Lots of folks get that confused..
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:10 am

Fog is not really a Winter problem, but definetly Spring and Summer.

I don't recall very many foggy mornings during the summer, one or two here and there. Certainly not enough to say that JFK is *often* affected with morning delays due fog.

Michael
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13201
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:11 am

"inside-security transfer system"

While at some point the JFK Airtrain may very well be extended from Jamaica to LGA (Charles Gargano has hinted at such), doing it inside security is impossible.

First of all none of the JFK Airtrain Terminal Stations are inside security, and second you would have to make the whole system "inside security". From Howard Beach-Terminal 7-Jamaica Station-LGA.

Impossible..

An extension of the JFK Airtrain from Jamaica Station to LGA, possible. Inside Security, No way..
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:18 am

STT-How about building an entirely new system, that only makes stops at the Delta and American terminals at the respective airports (since virtually everybody who would use such a system would be Delta or American passengers)...I'd say it would cut domestic-international connections from 3:50 to 1:15, and international-domestic connections from 3:50 to 2:00...am I wrong?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13201
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:20 am

Mike your misquoting me, I said..

" as often happens along the shore fog sets in some mornings "

Shore means shorelines, from Rockway to Long Beach Island to Santa Monica to Astoria Oregon, fog is common occurance along the Shore.

I was refering to shores generically, not the Jamaica bay specifically. And besides I used "some morinings", not "often" Mornings.

To quote you directly..

"I would say in the past month we had one or two foggy mornings"

2 x 12 (12 Months in a year) is 24, so at the minimum there are 24 foggy days at JFK (Rockaway). I believe (but I don't have time to go digging for National Weather service info) that the number is most certainly higher than 24 days of foggy mornings at JFK, even if it's "only" 24 days (which I highly doubt) that's 24 days more than EWR.

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13201
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:30 am

SHUPirate1,

Connecting LGA and JFK is a great and obvious idea, however they are not going to do it just for two airlines.

The current JFK Airtrain costs $2 Billion, they are not going to build another whole system which would probably cost 3 times the current JFK Airtrain costs just for two airlines.

AA and DL just don't have enough traffic to justify such an expense, and who would pay for it.

AA and DL would have to pay for it themselves since legally the Port Authority cannot collect Passenger fees from all JFK airlines and spend it on only two airlines at such a massive cost, and the rail project would cost about $2-5 Billion more than what AA and DL themselves are worth.

AA and DL could fly 767s every 10 minutes between JFK and LGA for less than what building a rail line from JFK to LGA (for them only) would cost, they could charter Helicopters for less than what it would cost to build a eniterly new rail system for them only between JFK and LGA.

Take into account that the amount of passengers that would use such a system would be less than 1,000 people each day, spending (atleast) $5 Billion on a transit system to benefit less than a 1,000 people is rediculous.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
N62NA
Topic Author
Posts: 4006
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:36 am

Great replies everybody. Thanks much for a spirited debate in this thread.

BUT, for those who have posted in this thread on things BESIDES my original topic, (i.e. which airport is foggier, which airport has more domestic flights, maybe they should build Airtrain between JFK and LGA)...


JFK is generally thought of as the prestigious New York area airport. The JFK routes are more prestigious.


Any thoughts on the original topic? Would love to hear your views too!
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:37 am

Ah, but of those "24" days, maybe only 2 or 3 of them are severe enough to cause delays. Remember, we are in the age of hi-tech airliners that don't need to "see" to land. When you compare "fog" delays at JFK to traffic delays at EWR, well...you know more than I do which is more of a problem. With normally only one departing runway and one landing, evening push at EWR is far worse than fog at JFK. Yes, JFK has some nice evening push delays also so no need to mention it.

On my quote, you fogot to add the "if that" Very important as I'm going by memory only and I could very well be wrong. It could have been 0 days in the past month but certainly not more than 1 or 2 as I would remember since fog usually causes problems with my train ride/bridge crossing.

Michael
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:40 am

While I would bet that it would benefit more than 1,000 people (undoubtedly more people from the lower midwest would connect through LGA/JFK rather than backtrack through ORD), it would not benefit the people of the city of New York at all (save revenue built into the ticket for that connection), and at second thought, it would probably be used almost exclusively for connections from domestic flights arriving at LGA to international flights departing from JFK (and vice versa), and would likely receive 90% of their passengers during the evening rush hour...in other words, NYC might be better off telling passengers to stick it out in traffic on the Van Wyck Expressway (which is, every time I've been on it between JFK and LGA, insane, and I'm a Nassau County resident)
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:47 am

BUT, for those who have posted in this thread on things BESIDES my original topic, (i.e. which airport is foggier, which airport has more domestic flights, maybe they should build Airtrain between JFK and LGA)...

Ok, the topic is about EWR vs JFK and you don't think comparing delays at either airport on topic? While I don't believe FOG is a big cause for delays at JFK it certainly is an on-topic post no? I mean, comparing delays at JFK vs EWR or vv. is important when choosing a "preferred" airport you would think?

Michael
 
RiverVisualNYC
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:11 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:53 am

N62NA- It's all history, and a little bit of New Yorker pride that makes the difference. JFK used to be Idlewild and was the international gateway to NYC at the dawn of the jet age, the great jetliners like Comet, 707, 747, and Concorde all appeared at Idlewild/JFK first, and in some cases never served at EWR at all. That's the history bit. The local pride part is that JFK (and LGA) are in New York City, and EWR is in New Jersey. Not our city, not our state. We may have lost our football teams to New Jersey, but we still like our airports in New York!
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13201
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:01 am

EWR is 15 miles from Mid-town Manhattan, JFK is 15 Miles from Mid-Town Manhattan.

To get to EWR you take the NJ Turnpike which beats any Queens highway, handsdown.

I've driven from West Side Highway to Newark Airport in less than 15 minutes, you will never be able to drive from Manhattan to JFK in less than 35 minutes.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13201
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: EWR Vs JFK

Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:05 am

"It's all history"

True..

First Transcontinental Airline route was from Newark..

First NYC airport was Newark

First Airport with a Control tower (anywhere) was Newark

First Airport with paved runways (anywhere) Newark

First Airport with runway lighting (anywhere) Newark

First Airport terminal Newark

First Airport Hotel Newark

Heck even before modern Jet travel the Lighter than Air ships that used to cross the Atlantic like the Hindenburgh flew out of Lakehurst Naval Air station in Ocean County New Jersey.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757