DLKAPA
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Jetblue And DEN

Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:01 pm

I have been confused... I just looked at the DEN website, and found a little surprise I have not seen before in the list. It seems that JetBlue will be starting or has already started service into Denver.

Here is my question: Have they already started service, or will it be soon? I couldn't find any dates on either the B6 or the DEN website for when it would start, nor could I find any pics in the A.net db.

And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
LH423
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:07 pm

Well, if they haven't already, they will have B6 service in January as they're starting service from BOS. I don't know however, if they have any other cities, although it would seem strange if they didn't considering JFK is they're main operating base and that most cities in their network at served from JFK.

LH423
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flyf15
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:33 pm

They have served DEN for quite some time (from JFK).
 
ScottB
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:45 pm

From their press release archives:

Jetblue Passengers Join The Mile High (City) Club With New Nonstop Service Between Denver And NYC

Service started May 17, 2001 - typical jetBlue red-eye for utilization.
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:46 pm

The reason you dont find pics in the a.net database is cause the flight times at DEN are not conducive to photography...it gets in and leaves at night...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:34 pm

What Gates do they use? Something on C?

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
ScottB
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:40 pm

 
DLKAPA
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sat Dec 06, 2003 5:44 pm

Hmm... Sharing gate space with F9... Is it logical to assume that F9 works the flights?

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
BA
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:28 am

DLKAPA,

Yes, Frontier does the check-in for Jetblue and even the maintenance and catering.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
F9Widebody
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:35 am

I really wish they would start a flight between DEN and LGB. That would be so nice for connections along the west coast.

Cheers,
F9W
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STT757
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:45 am

They have one daily flight between JFK and Denver, red eye.
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BA
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:57 am

And one daily flight between BOS and Denver....

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
flyguy1
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:13 am

I am curious as to when/if B6 will ever add more flights from DEN-JFK?
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:20 am

DEN, SEA, and MSY all have just one flight to JFK. This has to change sooner or later.


Stephen/New Orleans
 
flyguy1
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:34 am

MSY I would think could support at least 2 JFK flights per-day. At one time there was at least.
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
JBLUA320
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:00 am

MSY used to have 2, and I think that its quite likely once some more A320's arrive that we could see 2 flights again...

JBLU
 
airwarrior
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:29 am

I just flew DEN-JFK this week. It was JetBlue employees checking us in, not Frontier.
 
gigneil
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:44 am

I just flew DEN-JFK this week. It was JetBlue employees checking us in, not Frontier.

Perhaps wolves in sheep's clothing?

Frequently outsourced staff still dresses in the colors of the contractee.

N
 
goingboeing
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:51 am

DEN, SEA, and MSY all have just one flight to JFK. This has to change sooner or later.

Ah...this is where it gets interesting. As has been mentioned on another thread - Jetblue stock is priced for perfection - and part of that perfection is 85+% load factors. It's pretty easy to get a high load factor when you only operate one flight per day. The more flights you add, the lower your load factor can become. Even just a second flight (during the day) may pull a lot of the passengers off the redeye. And you're average load factor can go down. I dunno....JetBlue may be a fine airline - they don't serve my city, so I couldn't tell you. But looking at if from an investment point of view - I think there's a lot of smoke and mirrors there. When they introduce the secondary fleet of 190's (200 of them!) and start serving cities, it'll be interesting to watch - because the stock price has factored in 85+% load factors. What will the investment community think when they see that number begin to fall?
 
BillElliott9
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:08 am

What's going to happen when they have to start making the baloon payments on their fleet?

Not bashing, just asking..........
You can fight without ever winning but never really win without a fight.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:17 am

When they introduce the secondary fleet of 190's (200 of them!) and start serving cities, it'll be interesting to watch - because the stock price has factored in 85+% load factors. What will the investment community think when they see that number begin to fall?

Did JetBlue "factor in" 85 percent load factors to the stock price they started trading at, or did Wall Street "factor them in," whatever that means? It's not like a corporation autonomously decides exactly at what levels the market will trade its stock on an ongoing basis. That term is very fuzzy and needs explanation.

Neeleman & Co. are extremely smart managers, and it's hard to imagine them expecting 85 percent load factors forever. (Does WestJet get that? Did it the whole time Neeleman was there?) Nor is B6 likely planning to run toehold levels of service at places like DEN forever. One redeye gets an airline established in a longish domestic coach route like JFK-DEN. It's not a permanent plan for an airline that, as Neeleman has said from day one, plans to be at over 400 a/c in less than ten years.

JetBlue may need to add frequencies to DEN sooner than they expected though, since Cartel giant United can snap its fingers and have forty Ted A320's to throw around wherever they want. JetBlue may soon find themselves facing two or three Ted A320's on JFK-DEN that are *not* redeyes, and have to defend the route.

JetBlue is no smoke, no mirrors, just a solidly planned corporation with proven winners at the helm.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Ops48
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:17 am

Beginning December 20th, Jetblue will be moving from A31 to A33 and A35 at DEN. They will have two late night flights on the ground in Denver at the same time. They will also begin ticketing at the Integrated desk on that same day as well. There will be temporary Jetblue podiums at the gates until the CUTE system comes online.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:01 am

Did JetBlue "factor in" 85 percent load factors to the stock price they started trading at, or did Wall Street "factor them in," whatever that means? It's not like a corporation autonomously decides exactly at what levels the market will trade its stock on an ongoing basis. That term is very fuzzy and needs explanation.

IMHO, JetBlues stock price has been determined by all the good news, among those, one of the highest average load factors in the industry. These load factors were achieved by flying 1.) between the two largest cities in the USA with a rather limited number of flights and 2). From one of the largest cities in the USA to one if that states most popular vacations spots. The market has determined the stock price based on a very rosy past picture, and when wall street determines something based on past performance, you'd better believe that if load factor numbers drop, the "investors" on the street will punish the stock. Just look at the impact that the announcement that yields would not meet expectation, and they would be significantly lower than the previous quarter's numbers. THAT is what I mean by "priced for perfection" - It is extremely sensative to any news, good or bad. FWIW - after the announcement of the 190's, Wall Streets initial reaction was not good. It's gone up since them, but the next bit of bad news caused a very large downturn.

Neeleman & Co. are extremely smart managers, and it's hard to imagine them expecting 85 percent load factors forever. (Does WestJet get that? Did it the whole time Neeleman was there?) Nor is B6 likely planning to run toehold levels of service at places like DEN forever. One redeye gets an airline established in a longish domestic coach route like JFK-DEN. It's not a permanent plan for an airline that, as Neeleman has said from day one, plans to be at over 400 a/c in less than ten years.

Neeleman may not expect that, but he'd best be telling Wall Street TODAY that 85% load factors should not be expected as the airline grows, because Wall Street sure expects them. Neeleman also has a track record of leaving airlines once he's grown them or sold them. As young as JetBlue is, and as fast as their stock has risen, should he leave, the stock will get punished pretty hard - everybody was concerned when Kelleher stepped back at SWA, but he was in place for 30 years. Neeleman hasn't demonstrated that he's willing or able to stay with one airline for that long.

JetBlue may need to add frequencies to DEN sooner than they expected though, since Cartel giant United can snap its fingers and have forty Ted A320's to throw around wherever they want. JetBlue may soon find themselves facing two or three Ted A320's on JFK-DEN that are *not* redeyes, and have to defend the route.

And JetBlue's yields were down because of "low fares after the California fires" - I'm still trying to figure that one out. What will happen should TED invade DEN-JFK with daylight flights - introducing low fare competition on a route that hasn't had much? IMHO, TED's a joke, but should they start competing on JFK-DEN, and JetBlue responds, it's going to have a just as negative effect on their bottom line as TED's will on UAL's bottom line. Low yields are not what Wall Street wants to see.

JetBlue is no smoke, no mirrors, just a solidly planned corporation with proven winners at the helm.

Usually I agree with what you say, but I still have a "gut feeling" that JetBlue really is a lot of smoke and mirrors. Right now, they get exceptional press because they are located in Wall STreets back yard - the home town lowfare carrier. Everybody points to LUV's market cap to argue why that stock is overpriced - but I don't think LUV's market cap was anywhere near JetBlue's when LUV had but 40 planes. Irrational exuberance, I believe that they call it. No doubt that they had a lot of money to get started, no doubt that Neeleman know how to start an airline (as I said, he also knows how to sell them). And talk of 400 planes in less than 10 years - sorry, but that sounds a bit "People's Expressish" to me - even the grandaddy of the LCC's in the US doesn't have 400 planes after 30 years.
 
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mariner
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:51 am

Um - call me dumb (many have) but if JetBlue wanted to expand at Denver - what would they use for gates?

It's taken a major ruckus for Frontier to get a few more gates at DEN. And you can be fairly certain that the incumbents aren't going to welcome an expansion by JetBlue with open arms:

"Here, use some of our gates?" I don't think so.

Nor is Denver in a mood to build any more, given the expenditures they are presently facing with the new F9 gates and the expansion for UAL at Terminal B.

cheers

mariner
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DLKAPA
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 8:04 am

If Frontier and JetBlue Codeshare, (don't call me stupid I'm just not sure if they do or not), then frontier could "lend" a couple of gates and all of a sudden United has to compete with Two big LCC's instead of just one.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
dinker225
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:33 am

What is the CUTE system? Havn't heard of it.

Dinker
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DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:56 am

Irrational exuberance, I believe that they call it. No doubt that they had a lot of money to get started, no doubt that Neeleman know how to start an airline (as I said, he also knows how to sell them). And talk of 400 planes in less than 10 years - sorry, but that sounds a bit "People's Expressish" to me - even the grandaddy of the LCC's in the US doesn't have 400 planes after 30 years.

Thanks for the detailed response Goeingboing, it definitely answers my question. How much, though, will Wall Street's oversensitivity about JetBlue's stock price affect the airline's financial performance? Airlines are traditionally a narrow-margin business, and if JetBlue makes money reliably, they'll be around for the long haul even if the stock price fluctuates some.

It's not clear to me where Neeleman would go in North America if he left JetBlue. Southwest has its own corporate clique, and AirTran doesn't seem in line for any major changes. And if Branson starts up Virgin, could the USA take another new substantial LCC? Would that be a certain enough winner for N. to want to join? Unless he wants to back his bags and go to Europe or elsewhere, there literally may not be another opportunity of the kind David Neeleman seems to like. That could change, of course, but it doesn't seem to me that there's much out there that could draw him from JetBlue for now.

Regarding People Express....it was destroyed by its Frontier purchase & leveraging, its lack of computer res system (and Crandall's deft use of AA's to destroy PE's yields), and Burr's failure to stay on top of costs and operations. People Express was *not* destroyed by fast growth. Look at say an early 1986 timetable, shortly before the FR purchase, and PE's route system was close in size to AirTran's today, with a few 747's to Europe and West Coast thrown in. (Another PE mistake JetBlue is not likely to repeat)

New York City is completely unique on the East Coast, as Burr understood; far and away the biggest O & D market, something upon which LCC's are much more dependent for their hubs (yes, they have 'em) than are network carriers. Plus its huge natural leisure corridor to Florida, NYC simply has enormous LCC potential that has never been fully tapped. PE's loss set back the LCC dev't of not only NYC but the East Coast a decade, especially because the Cartel-Six Famiglias consolidated their control right after that.

JetBlue is simply picking up where People left off after its loss, as I think Neeleman & co. well understand. NYC can anchor the kind of operation JetBlue wants to build, a conclusion with which George Soros seems to agree, and his judgment carries some weight I think.

This is why my own gut feeling is that JetBLue knows exactly what they're doing, and that this huge growth is carefully planned. I respect your judgment otherwise, you've clearly thought it out carefully, but I still disagree. And Wall Street's teen-girl emotional state won't stop JetBlue, either.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Ops48
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:01 am

CUTE stands for Common Use Terminal Equipment. It is a system that allows software from multiple airlines to run through a single network. This allows airlines to share ticket counters and gates.
 
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mariner
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:38 am

Um - I thought George Soros sold the majority of his JetBlue stake a few weeks ago - I know he sold a very big bunch of shares.

Luckily for him, he got out before the stock price lurched downwards.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
rjpieces
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JFK Future

Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:50 pm

One of the reasons the stock price lurched downwards was because he sold his stock!  Smile
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
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mariner
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:44 pm

RJpieces:

That post is (a) funny and (b) possibly truthful.

I guess the question is: what did Soros know - and when did he know it?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
DLKAPA
Topic Author
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:47 pm

He is like the Martha Stewart of the Aviation Industry.  Nuts

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
sllevin
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RE: Jetblue And DEN

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:00 pm

New York City is completely unique on the East Coast, as Burr understood; far and away the biggest O & D market, something upon which LCC's are much more dependent for their hubs (yes, they have 'em) than are network carriers. Plus its huge natural leisure corridor to Florida, NYC simply has enormous LCC potential that has never been fully tapped.

I do and don't agree.  Smile I agree that jetBlue has very much exploited the NYC O&D market. And there's more to be exploited.

I'm just not sure there's another 200+ airplanes worth of potential. Eventually, there's going to be a "Clash of the Titans" between Southwest and jetBlue.

But it should be fun to watch!

Steve

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