FlySSC
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The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:47 pm

The first B777-300ER for Air France entered the paint shop on december 5th.
The plane should be delivered to the airline in April 2004 and will start services in MAY 2004, operating AF006 CDG-JFK. Air France is the launch company for the new B777-300ER type.

AF B773 will receive a 3 classes / 310 seats configuration, with the new Business and First class seats. They will be the only planes of the AF fleet (along with the B772 and later A380 ) to remain equipped with a First Class, as all AF A343/A332/B744 will be re-fitted with only Business/Eco.

The first plane to receive the new 2 class config is an A340-300 and will operate on AF004 CDG-EWR from Feb.2004
 
NORDO
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:52 pm

Looking forward to introducing the new AFR006 to New England in the spring
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:49 am

Can't wait to see the 773ER in service. Just a beautiful aircraft! Kudos to Air France for buying such a quality piece of aviation art.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
Spacepope
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:59 am

Someone get a photo of her while she's still clean! hey wait, i think I used that line back in college too...

T.J.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:35 am

AF B773 will receive a 3 classes / 310 seats configuration

it'll actually be F8/J66/Y235 for a total of 309  Big grin



and will start services in MAY 2004, operating AF006 CDG-JFK.

For the longest time, they listed daily AF276/275 (CDG-NRT) and 5xwk AF274/273 as the launch routes on June 14; even gave a press release lauding how the bird would help them in the Japanese market.

What made them decide to change that?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
FlySSC
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:47 am

ConcordeBoy,

The new planes are always "tested" on the shortest routes of the long-haul network (usually NYC, YUL or IAD for AF ) and to cities served by many daily flights, in case of technical problems. When the pilots have to train (witch is not the case for the B773) those planes are even used the first weeks" on short European or Domestic flights like CDG-LHR or CDG-NCE

Moreover, you need more than one aircraft to operate a daily CDG-NRT.

I just had this information today about AF006 CDG-JFK in May with the B773
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:49 am

Moreover, you need more than one aircraft to operate a daily CDG-NRT.


Hence the aforementioned date of 6/14  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
FlyinGuy1
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:31 am

Puting politics aside, if that is possible, as AF is the launch customer for the 777-300, I believe that it is time for all nationalities who disagreed with France on their stance on the war in Iraq to come together and unify in appreciation of the flight of this incredible aircraft. France purchases American products, Americans should pruchase French products, not because we just should for the hell of it, but because we truly need them. AF needs this aircraft for their fleet, obviously! I believe that the 777-300 is so beautiful that I might have to change my favorite aircraft from the 767-400 to the 777-300!

Also, I am going to go out on a "bipartisan" limb and hopefully, will not start another Airbus v. Boeing war! Currently, my favorite aircraft are: 737-800 w/winglets, A-330, 767-400, and the 777-300!!! Your opinions? What do you think?
The Magic City
 
donder10
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:37 am

AF6/7 is the flight that gets back into Roissy around 9am?

Is Dakar still down to be one of the first routes to see the 773ER?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:42 am

Flyinguy1,

I'm no fan of the French (even though that includes a quarter of my family  Laugh out loud), but you're right... screw politics, it's nigh-impossible not to marvel at such an incredible aircraft, and the fact that AF is launching it.

Not only is AF the launch customer for the 773ER.... but it's also the first non-Asian airline to operate any version of 773 series at all, and will also be the first airline in the world to commercially operate any 773 version transatlantically. Good stuff!  Big thumbs up
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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Plane Holland
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:00 am

why does it take 4 months to deliver when it's already in the paint shop ?

rgds, Plane Holland
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:15 am

It still hasn't received FAA (and equivalent) certification for one thing.

Another is the fact that AF asked Boeing to delay the delivery. When the lease order was first placed, AF originally wanted to have this bird in operation by last month.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
airways6max
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:26 am

It's nice to see that France wants to improve its relations with the U.S.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:29 am

...based on what evidence, an order that was placed three years ago??  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
rjpieces
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:20 am

That just shows how the 777 is superior to the A340. That the government owned airline of France is the launch customer for the 777-300 E.R. which competes head to head with the A340-600!
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
9v-svc
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The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:25 am

Any chance of AF flying the 773ERs to Singapore ? Big grin
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
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solnabo
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:43 am

Long delivery due to the aircondition in 773?
Maybe thats what americans want, to see
the french falling ill like in the KLM 772 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
*Just kidding*

Michael/SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
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LN-MOW
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:45 pm

The aircraft is probably going to participate in the final test phase of the aircraft. This is not unusual for the first 'production' specimens.

- I am LN-MOW, and I approve this message.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:28 pm

The aircraft is probably going to participate in the final test phase of the aircraft.

Based on what source?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
FlySSC
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:56 pm

Donder10,

AF 006 (B773) will leave CDG at 1:15PM - Landing JFK at 3:15
AF 007 will depart JFK : 7:50PM - to arrive at CDG : 8:50 (+1)



 
FlySSC
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:16 pm

The B777-200ER and the B777-300ER are certainly excellent aircraft, but I don't think we can say that are "better" than the A340. They just suit more an airline like AF, than the A346/A345, because of AF traffic, network, geographical position.

The A340 for AF is now needless. The A330 fits much better AF needs and can fly from CDG to ALL the destinations served by the A340, including Japan (AF A330 now flies daily nonstop CDG-KIX). The 22 A340 of AF are scheduled to leave the fleet in a medium term, though they are still quite "young" (the first a/c F-GLZA joined the fleet in 1992).

This is not a A. Vs B. statement. As a passenger, I prefer to fly the B777 than the A340 or A330. On the other hand, I definitely prefer the A320 family on the short/medium haul than the B737's.
 
fritzi
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:31 pm

Rjpieces,

Get your head out of your a$$! Do you have any evidence to backup your statement with except that AF took the B777-300ER instead of the A340-600 which is a french product?

Didnt think so...

You could also turn around your statement to this:

Why does UA, NW, B4, US and other airlines use A320s when they could get an American-produced B737?

PS: This is not meant to be A vs B, just trying to see what is inside of RJpieces head...

[Edited 2003-12-07 13:33:10]
 
Tom_EDDF
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:06 pm

I think the main factor for AF for not even considering the A340-600 was the fact that it is not available with GE powerplants. AF seems to have a very strong commitment to GE (which again might have to do with politics, as CFM is a joint company of GE and Snecma), with all of their aircraft powered by either GE or CFM engines. In the long run, the cost and value of the engines and related maintenance might exceed the acquisition costs of the aircraft itself.

Remember, that AF did order the A318 (which is, IMHO, a less competitive product in its class than the A346) only after Airbus agreed on fitting some CFM56s under its wings (whereas the initial plan was to go for the PW6000 only).

It might be possible that Airlines like NWA will not consider the A346 for the same reason, i.e. not offering a PW engines. Boeing might face some similar problems with the GE exclusivity for the 777ER/LR.
 
CPH-R
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:11 pm

I thought that Airbus put the CFM on the A318 due to problems with the PW6000?
 
JAL
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:52 pm

Can't wait to see the aircraft!!!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:08 am

It might be possible that Airlines like NWA will not consider the A346 for the same reason, i.e. not offering a PW engines

On small advantage the A340NGs do have is that Airbus can fit them with PW engines should enough market demand develop. Such an occurrence is rather unlikely; but unlike the 777NGs, there is no exclusivity on A340NG engines... just that a single manufacturer was majority preferred thus far by the market, and had an engine design ready to go.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
FlySSC
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:16 am

ConcordeBoy,

I confirm that AF B777-300ER will be equiped with 310 seats (not 309).
8 First / 67 Business / 235 Economy.

After AF006 CDG-JFK, the aircraft will fly the CDG-NRT route (summer 2004). Schedules :


12-4-5-- AF272 CDG 11:25AM --- NRT 06:25AM (+1) = A340-300
1234567 AF276 CDG 1:15PM --- NRT 07:50AM (+1) = B777-300ER
--34--- AF278 CDG 11:25PM --- NRT 6:00PM (+1) = B777-300ER
12--567 AF274 CDG 11:25PM --- NRT 6:00PM (+1) = B777-300ER
 
gigneil
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:21 am

Rolls did good with designing the Trent 500 and 600 on speculation, that's for sure.

I dunno what PW will offer on the A340 if it ever does. Clearly, the PW4052 and PW4056 are the right thrust class, but they are an oldish engine at this point and likely don't meet the requirements for SFC and weight. Who knows.

The Trent 500 actually is larger physically than those engines, now that I think about it.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:26 am

but they are an oldish engine at this point and likely don't meet the requirements for SFC and weight

They could be tweaked, if the market called for it (fat chance)

Look at what RR's been able to do with the RB211 all this time (especially considering the start it had)
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
RiverVisualNYC
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:34 am

Last night the National Geographic channel had an instructive documentary about the A330 that glided over the Atlantic to a dead stick landing in the Azores two years ago. Anyone who thinks the 744 or A340 is useless should watch this. Yeah I know the shutdown rates on ETOPS twins are low, but when mechanics botch something and one engine is out on a twin, that leaves you with...one engine. If the same thing is botched on a quad, you've still got 3 engines. Ask anyone on that Air Transat flight, most of whom apparently thought they were going to die, if they think 4 engines for long distance overwater isn't necessary..
 
brons2
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:43 am

Oh brother, RiverVisualNYC.

The problem that affected that A330 (fuel exhaustion) would have affected a 4 engine craft as well. It does not make any case for 4 engines at all.

HTH.

HAND.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
donder10
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:43 am

Doesn't matter if they had 3,2 or 4 in the Transat incident:the plane was going down.
 
FlySSC
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:43 am

CPH-R,

Initially, Airbus conceived the A318 only with PW engines. AF was interested in the plane and asked Airbus to study a version with CFM engines, or they wouldn't buy this a/c. So Airbus developed a version with the CFM.
The problems with the PW came later and actually, Airbus was lucky that they had this special request from AF, so the program didn't get too much delay.
 
RiverVisualNYC
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:49 am

According to the documentary, Air Transat mechanics botched the fuel lines of 1 engine, 50% of the twin's engines, which is what caused the initial fuel loss. Botching 1 engine on a quad would result in a remaining 75% of unbotched engines. Number of dead stick landings by twins out over the Ocean = 1, number by quads = 0. If anyone knows of an incident like this with a 747 or an A340, please post it!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:58 am

What you dont understand is that the fuel flow was obstructed to the wing (which on a Triple7, just happens to hang 1 engine), causing it to lose fuel. Fuel then pumped from opposite wing, and all thrust lost. It would have done the same thing to an A340, 747, etc.


If anyone knows of an incident like this with a 747 or an A340, please post it!

BA 747 lost all engines over the Indian Ocean due to volcanic ash
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:22 am

RiverVisualNYC-

they ran out of keroseane mate, nothing more too it.
165 engines on that thing ain't going to be better than two when you have no gas to make 'em suck and blow.

If you speak stastically, with a 4 engine plane compared to 2 engine, the 4 engine plane as DOUBLE the chance of a mess up like fuel line rubbing that caused the A330 to run out of gas.

There is a thread going on pprune.org about multiple engine failures, and they'll pretty much just reiterate what I said. Give me a twin over the ocean anyday, 1/2 the chances of something going wrong with the engines.

George

They're not handing trophies out today
 
Cores001
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:24 pm

Sorry for going back to AF new class configuration, but I woonder what´s the commercial rationale of a two-class configuration on a 747 or A34. Will they fly them to markets where first does not sell anyway? It just sounds a bit cheap for a company like AF.
 
UTA_flyinghigh
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:29 pm

what´s the commercial rationale of a two-class configuration on a 747

On certain destinations operated by AF, the loads in Espace Premiere were very, very low. I myself have flown on numerous occasions CDG-SEL, CDG-DEL, CDG-NRT and CDG-YUL where there was absolutely no one in First.
UTA
Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
 
FlySSC
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:53 pm

Cores001,

The First class will be kept on the B772ER, B773ER, and A380. These planes will be, of course, used to the destinations where there is really a market for such a product (JFK, NRT, BEY, HKG, etc...)

The B744 are to replace the 4 B743 and 5 B742 and will be mainly used to the touristic "sun" destinations such as MRU, RUN, PTP, FDF, SXM, CAY, PUJ, SDQ, and to provide extra capacity to major AF destinations.

Why offering a First Class to ALL destinations or NO destination ? there is a good alternative : To offer the First Class where there is a demand for First Class....!

There is no question of being "Chic" or "Cheap" in the aviation world today. An airline has to make money : if there is a demand on a destination for First Class, then we will propose a First Class by flying there a 777.
If there is not, we will fly there an A343, A332 or a B744. Very simple an logical !
 
707CMF
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:57 pm

Doesn't that make it a 777-328ER ?


707
 
UTA_flyinghigh
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:04 am

Doesn't that make it a 777-328ER ?

No, that makes it a Boeing 777-328/ER

UTA
Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:29 am

Not quite sure I understand the point of reply #40  Confused

While the plane is owned by ILFC (and may possibly take their code), but it's more than likely built to AF's specifications and therefor indeed a -328ER
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:06 am

"BA 747 lost all engines over the Indian Ocean due to volcanic ash"

It was on a flight departing Kuala Lumpur and lost all engines over Indonesia; it made a successful emergency landing at Jakarta.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
flyLAX
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:16 am

Any chance of an AF773ER coming to LAX? Maybe doing some CDG-LAX-PPT?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: The 1st B777-300ER For AF

Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:36 am

I think it would be easier to leave a 744 on that route due to ETOPS issues. However, if the 773ER gets the full 330 minute ETOPS approval that it is going for, then LAX-PPT would not be an issue. I think you need at least 207 minute ETOPS approval to fly the shortest LAX-PPT routing; otherwise you need to fly a more circuitous routing.
E pur si muove -Galileo