Cessnapimp
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Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:46 am

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Business/reuters20031206_18.html

Still nothing about what kind of jets though, but Milton says the choice has already been made. It's just about "finalising paperwork" now. I'm sure that by "finalising paperwork" they mean finding someone to bum money off of. That won't be a problem I think. Plenty of masochistic entities willing to dump oodles of moulah into the aviation world. "Can't they think of anything better to do with their money?" I keep asking myself. But I am happy AC has a chance at surviving.

Come on... 717... come on! (Crossing fingers)

Grégoire
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:50 am

this is the most pivital order of the year. You've got a lot of people thinking this will really push the E170, etc in the limelight.

Lots of people hoping it will get the 717 going for a LONG time.

And Canadians hoping their home airline doesn't screw them out of billions of $$$$.


I'm rooting for 717, I'd love to see a -300, but still, this is going to be a good day for someone.

George
They're not handing trophies out today
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:25 am

Why would AC order the 717? It makes too much long-term sense. AC still lives in the short-term, and that's why the order will be split between Airbus and BBD, I'm afraid. Just a guess of course.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:38 am

Hmm, this article cannot seem to make up its mind. It seems to imply that 250 is a done deal in some parts, but then in others, it seems to imply that 250 is only speculation.


...if I had to guess, it'll probably end up something along the lines of 150 firm, and 100 options.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:51 am

We can speculate and dream all we want...we will simply have to wait and see what the order mix will be.  Smile

In the meantime,
1. AC continues to lose money,
2. AC's competitors continue to make money & make inroads into AC territory.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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Plane Holland
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:57 am

bet ya it gonna be another airbus.  Smile

cheap deal, mark my words

rgds, Plane Holland
 
artsyman
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:01 am

I don't think that a company trading in bankruptcy should be allowed to go off and buy loads of new jets while they are unable to pay their current debts, not paying their suppliers and are losing a lot of money on a daily basis. This smells of Swiss, who more or less did the same thing and they ended up back in the same dire situation

Jeremy
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:04 am

Yup, Airbus will win, potentially not with the A318 but rather more A319's. And they'll get them really cheap. Air Canada has the same mentality as being buying GM cars ... 0% financing, 0 down for 60 months. Maybe they're getting a deal like that? Only way to sell inferior products. (By the way, not implying Airbus stinks, I like Airbus as much as Boeing).
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
airways6max
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:07 am

A bankrupt airline going on a buying spree? I'm surprised anyone was willing to give away over 100 planes to an airline that is so deep in the hole financially.
 
aviationmaster
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:26 am

Swiss isn't bankrupt (me knocks on wood), they bought those A340s right after the company was formed. Right now they could use some money, but they aren't bankrupt... As for AC ordering 105 jets, I hope they choose the B717  Smile
 
Udo
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:31 am

The A319 an inferior product? Smoked some real bad stuff today, haven't you?


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
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solnabo
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:31 am

318, c´mon......318, c´mon
 Laugh out loud

Michael/SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
yow
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:37 am

The dream order for me would be B717s to replace the 732 routes and E170s to replace the 146 routes, to open new routes and to increase frequency on long, thin routes. But we'll know reality soon enough.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 8:16 am

Sorry Udo, no thanks! Share with others if you wish.

Regarding the inferior product comment, if you read my post, I said that I liked A and B equally. That's not a politically correct statement, it is my true opinion. Given that, the A319 (and A318) is an inferior product in the sense that it does not meet the needs as established by Air Canada to offer less capacity for short haul routes. The 717 and Embraer (and to a lesser extent the CRJ 700's) are more ideal for Air Canada. Hence, it makes the Airbus product inferior in this role.

"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:11 am

We have to remember that it's not necessarily AC's choice, it's Star's choice.

I think it will be the 717 and the EMB-170/175 since these are the only aircraft that AC, SAS, OS & LH have all specified an interest in.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:18 am

I don't think AC would order the A318 unless Airbus really gives AC one heck of a sweetheart deal.  Smile The A318 is too heavy a plane for just seating over 100 passengers.

I wouldn't be surprised that the order is split between the Boeing 717-200 and Bombardier CRJ900. I don't think AC wants the Embraer 170/190 series for political reasons (e.g., Bombardier jobs).
 
Korg747
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:20 am

From my heart I trully hope it's the 717 however in air canada's condition.I'm not sure if boeing is going to be happy if air canada reaches a point of not being able to pay for the aircrafts for the rest of it's time.

we will see but......GO BOEING!
Please excuse my English!
 
N79969
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:29 am

I agree with Artsyman. It seems like the last thing a bankrupt company should be doing is making huge capital investments in airplanes. I have almost no understanding of how bankrupt companies operate. I am curious as to how AC justifies this to creditors who hold IOUs.

 
CB777
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:45 am

My guess would be the 717. This is due each airline would now have a fleet type that they now will all have and had not before. Making all aircraft equal to be moved around as needed.
CRJ/EMB/A31X would be too political for all.
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Air Canada Questions

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:46 am

Although I agree that the Embraer would be a great choice, I doubt it will be the airplane. Commonality will dictate the CR705 unless they are doing a complete short haul fleet renewal. As for the 100 seater my vote goes for the 717, i doubt it will be 318/9.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:49 am

Hmmm, this is interesting!!! Almost every post so far wants the B717! And so do I....It is unfortunate, but the Star order really will determine the future of that wonderful plane. If Star orders it the line will be open for a long time, the -300 will be developed, and the 717 will look better for other potential operators.

Can you see Air Canada not buying Bombardier though? I agree that the Embraers would be a lot better, but imagine all the newspaper headlines?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
rockyracoon
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:52 am

Please for the love of god, ac buy some 717s.  Smile

Tim
 
Jaws707
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:55 am

Has Lufthansa mentioned anything about waiting an extra couple of years for the FD-728? I think they were planning on buying a bunch of them before Fairchild Dornier went bankrupt, but if and when Fairchild Delong or whatever the company launched the 728, I think a Lufthansa order would really help the company out, and Lufthansa would get the aircraft they always wanted.
 
Olympus69
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:04 am

Several posts have mentioned that a company in AC's situation should not be making huge capital investments. However, where did it say that Air Canada was actually going to BUY these planes. I thought they were going to be leased.
 
L1011Fan
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:56 am

Same here...go 717! I am really hoping for the 713.
 
N79969
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:06 am

Whether these new airplanes are purchased or leased, they will require large and regular outflows of cash.

Of course, I am pulling for the Boeing 717 but I do not believe that Boeing will get this order.
 
Jj
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:10 am

I think they'll go for the 717. I hope this is THE order that the 717 needs to become a successful jet liners. It would make sense h,owever to split the order and buy some smaller aircraft, I hope the Embraers.
 
captcjmac
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:32 am

C'mon 757!!! That way Boeing will be forced to keep the line open!!  Big thumbs up  Nuts
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:06 pm

For an airline that....

a) needs to fund its $1B pension shortfall within 8 years.
b) needs to raise $4B for new aircraft; and
c) become a profitable carrier first and foremost.

....one has to wonder where all the money is going to come from. Air Canada isn't exactly swimming in money right now. On top the actual costs associated with the above mentioned items, a decision has to be made as to which group within Air Canada will fly the aircraft (Jazz or mainline). Expect that to be a long, lengthy battle.
EH.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:18 pm

It will be Airbus. Austrian Airlines is the lead negotiator on behalf of the group of airlines. SAS, Lufthhansa, Air Canada and Austrian Group are all committed to Airbus having purchased Airbus products almost exclusively over the past few years. If this new order is anything other than Airbus, then I'll be (happily) surprised. But, it'll be Airbus.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
fraT
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:52 pm

I'm going with Plane Holland and Bicostal. It's gonna be Airbus. Even though it might not be the optimal choice for AC (to big A/C for the Jazz routes), Airbus will offer them the best deal. Let's see, maybe Airbus even includes the two A345 if they buy the A318.
Another possibility might be a split between Airbus and Bombardier. That would give them A/C for small routes and not that much bad press in Canada.
 
LHR001
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:36 am

Bye Bye Boeing...


Hello Airbus!


Air Canada, will be replacing its aging fleet of 767 aircraft! In addition look for aircraft to expend apon grown within North America!
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:55 am

I'm not sure they are so eager to replace the 767 fleet in the immediate. If so that's news to me. As for the 318, I cannot imagine this. I still think it will be the 717 for the 100+ seater. Before trashing Airbus, you gotta look at the reliability records of AC's narrowbody fleet. It's excellent. The only advantage for the 318 is its range. Commonality, I'm not so sure due to the size of the fleet that's being ordered. Another issue: Airbus is in a position for a very sweet deal for the baby busses. The 318 is the slow seller, and you can rest assured that the backrooms are stuffed right now with Airbus dealers to strikeout something big. I can smell from across the Atlantic.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
flyabr
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:05 am

and didn't the CEO of AC say not too long ago that boeing was not the UNDERDOG in this competition...makes you wonder who was...
 
gigneil
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:11 am

In addition look for aircraft to expend apon grown within North America!

What?

N
 
caribb
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:21 am

I predict the CRJ and 717.. my two cents for whatever it's worth... as for apron growth (?).... I guess the longest plane wins on that level... for whatever it means LOL..
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:26 am

I predict the CRJ and 717.. my two cents for whatever it's worth...

I agree with Caribb. CRJ-700 or 705 and 712/713 is my wish, if not prediction.

But who knows? It could be theA318 and EMB-190.

Any of the 4 manufacturers could win a piece of this order.




I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Air Canada Questions

Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:28 am

Well here's more interesting news, AC is taking 8 747s(they are getting them for a steal) they are asking the ACPA group to fly them at A340 rates of pay( i know this from mainlne pilot friends), so i don't think the 340-500s are coming when AC can get a superior a/c at low lease rates. I have a feeling that it will be the CRJ200 & 705 and I'm not too sure about the 100 seater(once again I'm all for Boeing) and it's already pretty much determined that Jazz will fly the 50/70 seaters, I'm not banking on the 100 seater which is fine with me. The aircraft will be leased NOT bought.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:07 am

Crj900, the 747 story gets even more complicated! I love the 744's and hope they do stay in the fleet for a while. I also hope they can get the dedicated cargo operation up and running sometime, as they have been talking about for quite a while. As far as the 744 being superior to the A345, I'm not convinced however. But the 744 will be far cheaper to lease, that's for damn sure.

C'mon AC pilots, don't be greedy! Fly the 744's at the same rate as the A340's!
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Air Canada Questions

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:14 am

Oh i agree that the 340-500 is a great product but comfort-wise I find the 47 far better, I guess I just have a soft spot for them.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:21 am

Well, if you want to talk about comfort, as much as I appreciate the majestic beauty of the 747, the A340 to me is more comfortable. The 2-4-2 Y class seating is very comfortable, and better than the 3-4-3 of the 744. It is also quieter, and has better IFE, at least in the Air Canada fleet. Will Air Canada invest some money into the 744's and install PTV's? Trust me, I don't want to sound like a typical a.net teen where I wont fly if it doesn't have a PTV, but surely Air Canada must be competitive, especially if WS will offer live Sat. tv in their 73G's.

Anyways, bring on the 744's!!! (and 717's).
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:24 am

Where are the 747's coming from? UA?

Will AC return all 343's when the 744's arrive? Otherwise, this will simply be a huge increase in seat capacity which will drive down yields for everyone.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Air Canada Questions

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:38 am

I have no clue, came as a surprise to me as well, this could be part of Mr.Li's plan to increase AC's international presence. I'm sure the 340's are staying but you and I know that things at AC change overnite. I agree that we need PTVs on our longhaul product but IFE is a customer option and I've seen some pretty nice systems on Boeing aircraft, to be exact some of AC's newer 767s that were added to the fleet in 2000 have the same system as the Airbus. The 340 doesn't ride as nice as the 747. To be exact most of the BUSES I find (and friends who fly them)are really shitty in turbulence. When we get ride reports, if an Airbus ahead of us on the same route says they are getting moderate chop more often than not it means light in a Boeing. I've commuted in the jump of the 767 and 747 enough to experience it first hand. Don't get me wrong I like the bus fine, but overall comfort and space is greater on the pig.
 
awschucksflyer
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:47 am

I don't mean to be rude.. but PEOPLE...AIR CANADA is NOT GOING TO ORDER THE 717!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why WOULD they?!?!?
 
TK
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:49 am

The A340 is FAR more comfortable. I don't know where you get the impression that the 747 is better than the A340 in terms of comfort. This is the very reason why I choose Air Canada when I travel long haul. Airy cabin, great leg room, quiet, good air quality, and 2-4-2. A340 rides turbulance fine.

[Edited 2003-12-07 23:56:08]
 
planemaker
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:51 am

From what I have heard from AC, it will be the CRJ-705's (for political reasons) and the E190's (for operational reasons).

If you recall, Milton said that AC did not care about domestic market share - but that would be the discounted Y market share. So, to maintain the C and full fare Y traffic and international feed they will still have to offer frequency with obviously smaller aircraft. The 717 didn't really have a chance due to the range - it can't fly west coast/Kelowna to YYZ, YOW or YUL while the E190 can. And the A318 is too heavy and too expensive.


Also, don't forget that GE is providing $700 million DIP financing, and the 717 is the only aircraft without GE engines.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Air Canada Questions

Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:00 am

Well, like i said it's a personal preference and a professional one from someone who flies for a living, remember I'm on airplanes over 80hrs a month, not a few times a year. I'm certainly not going to aruge back and forth over something that silly. Why is it necessary that alot of the threads on here to turn into a ridiculous arguement over who's opinion is the right one? I never said I was right, I just expressed my opinion TK and your entitled to express yours... more power to you.
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Air Canada Questions

Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:03 am

well Planemaker that would be VERY cool if it indeed comes to reality, the best of both... Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Goose
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:12 am

Trust me, I don't want to sound like a typical a.net teen where I wont fly if it doesn't have a PTV, but surely Air Canada must be competitive, especially if WS will offer live Sat. tv in their 73G's.

If you're talking about the LiveTV technology.... well, Air Canada simply cannot offer it in their aircraft. At least, not the technology offered on JetBlue and soon, WestJet.

Why? WestJet has a five-year exclusive deal for LiveTV in Canada.... and someone told me that the IFE sat-TV technology was pretty unique anyway.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada: Order For 105 Jets By X-mas

Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:17 am

Goose, I'm sure if AC really wanted it, they could find another supplier? Anyways, I'm talking more with respect to having PTV's with video on demand for passengers. AC will find that there will be less and less reasons for passengers to fly with them if their product lags behind lower priced rivals.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster

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