MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24558
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:54 am

American Airlines, which has launched five new non-stop routes out of Miami since July (two more launch in January), and all have experienced strong loads, the weakest performer being Pittsburgh, and even PIT is doing a strong ~75% load factor on weekends. Weekday loads are, expectedly, lower than weekends, but still performing well. Indianapolis and Columbus services are consistantly filling up. And in all these cases, it was a case of "why didn't AA serve these destinations before". About time.

Tommorrow's loads:
MIA-MSP: 112/115Y; 3/14F (MSP-MIA: 89/115Y; 3/14F)
MIA-IND: 115/115Y; 6/14F (IND-MIA: 113/115Y; 3/14F)
MIA-PIT: 95/115Y; 1/14F (80/115Y; 0/14F)
MIA-CMH: 50/50Y (CMH-MIA: 50/50Y)
MIA-CVG: 50/50Y (CVG-MIA: 48/50Y)

Inaugural loads:
MIA-RIC: 12/37Y (RIC-MIA: 13/37Y)
*Announced yesterday (5 December)
MIA-LIR loads not available.

Anyone can check loads on almost all American Airlines, American Eagle, and American Connection flights at:
http://www.aa.com/apps/reservations/CheckAvailableSeats.jhtml?anchorEvent=false
a.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24558
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:04 pm

Also, on a side note, these recently launched routes are doing well load-wise:

Miami to Sao Paulo daylight service (only daylight between US and deep South America; starts 15 December)
Boston to New Orleans
Dallas to Buenos Aires
JFK to Caracas (starts 19 December)
Ft. Lauderdale to Port-Au-Prince
Ft. Lauderdale to Caracas (starts 15 December)
*(FLL-SDQ is doing okay, not as well as the other two)

As many do know, loads are little indication of profits, but full planes are still nothing to complain about.

[Edited 2003-12-07 04:07:31]
a.
 
AA777MIA
Posts: 671
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:30 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:50 pm

I have heard that everything has been doing pretty well out of here. That is good news for us based here in MIA... Hopefully they will add some more destinations. Would totally LOVE to see a non stop to SAN again, and perhaps FLL to SFO... =)
 
FLAIRPORT
Posts: 3863
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 10:46 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:00 pm

I think AA has a lot of hope from FLL. MIA is still big for connections, but people just like to fly nonstop from FLL better. it is muh more convinent, and there is less traffic.

I'd like to see FLL-Mexico, FLL-POS, FLL-SXM, and espically FLL-the west coast.

and AA, if you give us FLL-the west coast, can you schedule arrival from 6:30am-7am of your red-eye. Nothing wakes me up more than a plane from the west coast approaching!

[Edited 2003-12-07 05:02:28]
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
FLAIRPORT
Posts: 3863
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2000 10:46 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:19 pm

wow!
PAP-FLL
1 Bus.
71 Y!

book your seats now!
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
airways6max
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 6:22 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:58 pm

Well, it's nice to see that AA has discovered a way to make money again.
 
flymia
Posts: 6808
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:32 pm

Well AA does fly FLL-LAX. Anyone see more European Routes for MIA in the Future or maybe one day even AA), Japan">NRT?
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
FedExIndy
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 2:14 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:32 pm

What other airlines have load information on their web sites. This can be a great tool for non-rev travelers.
 
AA 777
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:34 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:00 pm

Fedexlndy,

I believe that on the AA site it shows seats that are booked but they really arent. They are blocked and some can only be "released" by agents at the airport. As for non-rev travellers, they have access to a form of Sabre that they can access on their own computer through the AA Employee site.

AA 777
Matt
CRJ-700 FO
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

JFK Future

Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:03 pm

AA has been adding a lot at FLL. Southern Florida is a huge market and they can sustain a hub at MIA and a large operation at FLL. I would love to see them doing FLL-CDG, a route Delta came close to doing at one point.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
tekelberry
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:08 pm

The AA.com seatmaps do not reflect load factors one bit. You could have a flight that looks completely booked but have 50 empty seats since AA does not show open seats blocked for elites. Not to mention the fact that AA also blocks some non-elite seats & emergency exit seats as well.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24558
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:55 pm

You could have a flight that looks completely booked but have 50 empty seats since AA does not show open seats blocked for elites.

If you mean the process where AA blocked off seats next to Elites in Y so they could have more space, I am almost positive AA no longer does that.

I think AA has a lot of hope from FLL. MIA is still big for connections, but people just like to fly nonstop from FLL better. it is muh more convinent, and there is less traffic.

For someone living in Ft. Lauderdale, yes. But how about for someone living in Miami? I, and more than 2.3 million other people, am a ten minute drive from MIA (25 in traffic), while it takes me 35 minutes (1 hour with traffic) to get to FLL. While both MIA and FLL clearly serve the same exact market (people in Miami go to FLL for low fares; to MIA for international non-stops), saying FLL is "more convienent" is totally relative.

I'd like to see FLL-Mexico, FLL-POS, FLL-SXM,

FLL-Mexico and FLL-SXM are not happening. FLL-POS I would not rule out, because it is a high-yielding market with a lot of business traffic. I would also not rule out AA starting FLL-SJO (I have hear rumours about that one), and AA was trying to get the FLL-BOG route authority from Aces' liquidation, but it went to Avianca.

and espically FLL-the west coast.

American Airlines flies between Ft. Lauderdale and Los Angeles four times a day, non-stop. AA announcing a redeye FLL-SFO would not surprise me (and if a certain Delta LCC announces it, AA will retaliate in less than a week, I promise), especially seeing how much they have expanded at FLL lately. SFO is the largest domestic O&D market from Miami/Ft. Lauderdale not served from both MIA and FLL.



a.
 
fraT
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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:04 pm

High loads are good, but what about the yield????
That's how you make or loose money.
 
Southamerica
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:09 am

If those numbers really are true, great to hear that AA is shaping up more its MIA hub and extending their Latin American network.

Why does CCS get all the fun? Flights to DFW, SJU apart from the normal MIA frecuencies, and now FLL and JFK too !!. We guys in BOG only get several flights to/from MIA  Crying . Maybe because there's not any relevant airline to compete with in Venezuela on those routes?? I mean, if AA flew to JFK from BOG they'd have to compete with a daily AV 767, and if they started to fly to FLL they'd have to compete with them too. Definetely not Venezuela's case.


Federico in SOUTHAMERICA
 
ssides
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:18 am

From what I hear, AA's loads are really, really good systemwide -- especially on Eagle. Much of this, of course, is due to their reductions in capacity. They say they will add seats in 2004 -- let's see if they can keep this up when more seats are being sold.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
DB777
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:48 am

From above: "I think AA has a lot of hope from FLL. MIA is still big for connections, but people just like to fly nonstop from FLL better. it is muh more convinent, and there is less traffic."

A response to above: "For someone living in Ft. Lauderdale, yes. But how about for someone living in Miami? I, and more than 2.3 million other people, am a ten minute drive from MIA (25 in traffic), while it takes me 35 minutes (1 hour with traffic) to get to FLL. While both MIA and FLL clearly serve the same exact market (people in Miami go to FLL for low fares; to MIA for international non-stops), saying FLL is "more convienent" is totally relative."

25 minutes in traffic to get to MIA? I know people who live in Kendall or Richmond Heights who work at MIA and routinely spend an hour in traffic getting to work. On really bad days it's an hour and 45 minutes. Yes, things are indeed relative.

Location, location, location - this is reason #1 as to FLL is growing like wildfire while MIA has suffered a decline. This is the reason why FLL has had more O&D traffic than MIA for at least five years now. Five or six years ago, the geographic center of population for South Florida was a point a mile or two west and just slightly north of FLL itself. That figure is probably further north now due to increased development in north Broward and Palm Beach County.

That means half the population of South Florida lives north of FLL and of course they're going to use FLL or PBI whenever possible. Very few people living in central or north Broward, or Palm Beach County, are willing to venture south to MIA and put up with the traffic and third world atmosphere unless they absolutely have to.

Of the people who live south of the geographic center of population, you have a substantial number of people in south Broward (Hollywood, Hallandale, Miramar, Pembroke Pines) who will prefer to fly out of FLL because it's closer, easier to use and the fares are lower most of the time.

On top of that sizeable population in central and south Broward, you have a large population in north Miami-Dade County (Aventura, Bal Harbour, Surfside, North Miami Beach, Destiny, Miami Lakes, unincorporated areas) who will prefer to fly out of FLL instead of MIA for several reasons but this is the primary one: you can get to FLL faster than MIA in the morning because you are going opposite rush-hour traffic - traffic from north Miami-Dade County to MIA is the absolute pits on every weekday morning, especially on the Palmetto Expressway or I-95. Southbound traffic to MIA on the Palmetto sucks in the middle of the day now too and in the late afternoon it is often backed up in gridlock due to an accident. Vehicle traffic is going to strangle Miami-Dade County, there is no hope in sight, and companies will continue to move to Broward and points north to make things easier on their employees. Lack of planning and foresight on the part of our elected officials and transportation officials past and present have doomed everyone to horrible traffic gridlock in Miami-Dade County and one of the unfortunate casualties will be MIA because no one can get there in a timely manner from the north.

Now, based on the above, you only have people living in central and southern Miami-Dade County that can get to MIA faster than FLL. That's a far smaller share of the total South Florida population than what FLL has. And from that group you will have a substantial percentage who are willing to drive further to fly out of FLL if they can save $50 to $200 per ticket due to lower air fares. They would be crazy not to do so, especially if husbands and wives are traveling together or with two or three kids on a trip. An added 45 minute drive each way to save $1000 on air fares for a family of five? It sure makes sense to me and more and more people are figuring out the math.

FLL will continue to thrive due to its location, the far lower operating costs for airlines which attracts the low-cost carriers, and because it is easier to get to and get through the process to board a flight. Someone at American has done their homework and they are smart to take advantage of the situation at FLL.

Don
Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
 
LambertMan
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:28 am

MAH, Thanks for that link! Big thumbs up
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24558
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:26 am

High loads are good, but what about the yield????

If you'd re-read my post, I stated how loads are a small indicator of how profitable a flight is. However, in the case of the Miami flights, Miami is a traditionaly strong yielding market, despite it's leisure-orientation (Miami is a high-end tourist destination; Ft. Lauderdale is lower end).

?Why does CCS get all the fun? Flights to DFW, SJU apart from the normal MIA frecuencies, and now FLL and JFK too !!. We guys in BOG only get several flights to/from MIA

It has nothing to do with American Airlines. Like I said, AA tried to get FLL-BOG. The Colombian government is one of the strictest government when it comes to foreign air services. They are very protective of thier own carriers. For example, they won't let AA serve more than three Colombian cities. It took more than ten years for AA to finally ge the authority to serve Medellin.

Now, based on the above, you only have people living in central and southern Miami-Dade County that can get to MIA faster than FLL. That's a far smaller share of the total South Florida population than what FLL has.

25 minutes in traffic to get to MIA? I

Living in the downtown Miami area like I and many others do, yes. 25 minutes in traffic.

That figure is probably further north now due to increased development in north Broward and Palm Beach County.

While I am not disputing increased development in the area, the hottest areas in terms of real estate development right now are downtown Miami and Miami Beach, both a 25 minute drive from MIA with traffic. Nobody else in South Florida comes close to the development boom going on in those two areas.


Vehicle traffic is going to strangle Miami-Dade County, there is no hope in sight,

No hope in sight? Then what's that new $10B+ rapid transit expansion and highway improvment programme approved last year by a .5% sales tax height? That includes, finally, a heavy-rail train line to MIA.
http://www.miamidade.gov/trafficrelief/about_plan.asp

Someone at American has done their homework and they are smart to take advantage of the situation at FLL.

I am not arguing with you there. Someone at American was very smart. It is an excellent situation, taking advantage of a huge FF base and making sure they are properly served from both the area's major airports. American Airlines is on track to surpass Southwest as the #2 carrier at FLL by the time the year is over, and there are rumours of new routes that keep on popping up particularly a redeye to SFO, a daily service to SJO, and making the FLL-RDU flights daily (currently 2x daily on SaSu only).




a.
 
scottysair
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:07 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:44 am

Hey MAH4546,

I just got information about rail expansion to MIA airport and here it is:


Earlington Heights/Airport Connector: a 3.1-mile extension from the Earlington Heights Metrorail station to the Miami Intermodal Center, located on the east side of Miami International Airport.

This is came in from these webpages about metrorail will expansion to Miami Airport. Is that true about of MIA? I read alot about of them with the future expansion into Miami. I am still miss in FLL/MIA very often and that why we are moving to PHX already. Thanks, Mark (MAH4646).

Regards!

Scott W.
 
Ealsys1
Posts: 211
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:44 am

DB777,

Doesn't the short runway length, the fact that you mainly have only one runway available, and the fact that Dania Beach residents will never allow the southern runway (9R ?) to be lengthened all conspire to limit FLL's growth to not much more that we're at now or will be in the near future? I'm an MIA guy always since I'm SO much closer to MIA than FLL> FLL can be a haul!!!

Regards,

Sam
 
jeffie813
Posts: 239
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:03 am

While I am not disputing increased development in the area, the hottest areas in terms of real estate development right now are downtown Miami and Miami Beach, both a 25 minute drive from MIA with traffic. Nobody else in South Florida comes close to the development boom going on in those two areas.

where do you get that information regarding development from? everything i've read (newspaper, s. fl business review, etc.) indicates that the "boom" is actually occuring more in palm beach and broward counties. condo development is all well and good, but in terms of a devlopment boom you have to look beyond condos and factor in new housing and planned communities. miami doesn't come close to broward or palm beach simply because there isn't any more room for development. drive anywhere in central to northern palm beach county (or scan the terrain as you fly the approach to PBI) and you will notice that there are more new communities and mixed use developments than you could ever count. palm beach county exceeds broward now in new housing building permits issued.
 
YUL2010
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:57 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:07 am

AA started its 2nd daily flight to YUL in November with a B738. Any news on the loads there?
"Hotel November Oscar clear to land runway 24L"
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24558
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:26 am

indicates that the "boom" is actually occuring more in palm beach and broward counties. condo development is all well and good, but in terms of a devlopment boom you have to look beyond condos and factor in new housing and planned communities.

I was referring to new condos, office towers, etc. In the US, only Chicago is currently building more new skyscrapers than Miami. No doubt the new housing communities are popping up all over in Palm Beach and Broward. As you said, there is zero room for that in Miami, which is far too compact. Which is why in Miami, they are building up, like the recently opened Millenium Tower, one of the tallest residential buildings in the world at 794 feet (a taller one, Met3, was announced a week after that one opened). Building new planned residential communities is nice, but the future points towards urban living once again, and Miami is definitley prospering from that, as well as downtown Ft. Lauderdale, another hot spot for high-rise construction.

AA started its 2nd daily flight to YUL in November with a B738. Any news on the loads there?

Both YUL-MIA flights are going out full/near full daily. MIA-YUL flights are going out at 75% or so capacity.
a.
 
scottysair
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:07 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:32 am

Hey MAH4546,

Oh my god!!! This is mean for those flight is always full on their way to YUL flight and I think still the load factors were doing very well. How is happening to know about AA were added second flight to YUL. You didn't not answer with this post from me about information for the future expansion on the metrorail to Miami Airport. What are you about still need expansion MIA in the future by the new city anytime soon? AA is make to keep with their money and will be alright for them.

Regards!

Scott W.
 
Air1727
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:57 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:18 am

Broward and Palm Beach Counties are blowing Dade into the shadows in terms of growth and development. Miami and Miami Beach are nothing compared to new areas of Palm Beach and Broward in terms of growth. As for FLL and the expansion of 9R/27L, someday Dania beach will have no say over the runway's future when capacity issues warrant Broward County to step over the battle and move ahead by mandate. The south runway at FLL will be expanded someday. When is another story, but that airport will become larger and more efficient as long as air travel stays its course. Dania Beach will have to have a coke and a smile, and get over it someday. Palm Beach Intl will also expand as well within 10 years (PBI already has two expansion master plans completed) for the population growth in Palm Beach, Jupiter, Stuart, Wellington, and Boyton Beach is beyond control and FLL and PBI will not be able to support the traffic once air travel balances out again. And no one from Broward or Palm Beach will deal with the stopped up toilet of I-95 and I-75 to the Crawlmetto Distressway to get to MIA. Forget it!
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24558
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:25 am

Broward and Palm Beach Counties are blowing Dade into the shadows in terms of growth and development. Miami and Miami Beach are nothing compared to new areas of Palm Beach and Broward in terms of growth.


While Palm Beach and Broward county are devolpment and growth is huge, so is that in Miami-Dade. They are all growing rapidly, not one county significantly shadowing the other. Where area's Miami-Dade's growth is in urban highrises, Palm Beach and Broward's growth is in suburban sprawl. And if Broward does not get its act together in regards to thier own highway and mass transit improvements, they are seriously screwed in terms of traffic problems.

[Edited 2003-12-07 23:26:27]
a.
 
flymia
Posts: 6808
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:32 am

Traffic is realy not that bad. Anyone that lives in PBI area is not going to MIA unless they really want to fly non-stop some where so lets take PBI out of this. MIA area has many more upper class pax then FLL area does first. Second Miami Downtown is bomming like crazy. Much more then does pre planed communites. Traffic really is not horrible. Except for the hours 6:15-9:00am traffic is a easy. FLL is for direct flights and flights for famlilys going on vacation with Delta. MIA is more direct upper class or international people. Also MIA is a bigger Business Airport as well. You cant say Broward and Plam Beach are blowing dade in the Shadows. Dade still had a good 1.3 million or even more people then those two counties. Miami and Miami Beach are the future. Imagine if the Free Trade Zone comes to Miami to stay that would make i heard 90,000 new jobs there is a nice way to bring up pax in both MIA and FLL.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:37 am

There is no doubt that South Florida is booming.....there is so much real estate development from Jupiter to Miami that it is amazing - population and business are increasing which adds demand to MIA, FLL and PBI.

All there airports are growning and demand will increase, but each is talking on a different role.....MIA is clearly an international gateway for all of South Florida and the largest gateway to the Caribbean and Latin America for the entire US, add to that AA's large hub operation and the proposed STAR complex there (if it ever gets to full maturity I guess depends on UA's finances and future) and the result is a huge operation. FLL and PBI provide O&D services to their "greater" local communities (which have developed into large cities on their own) and also accommodate some O & D traffic from the Miami area (especially the northern suburbs, Aventura, and even Miami Beach) because, as pointed out, at times MIA can be difficult to get to and many passengers (including a lot of South Florida residents) simply avoid MIA as it is a much less user friendly airport that FLL or PBI - MIA has simply gotten very big and very crowded over the years. Honestly, many leisure passengers consider PBI, FLL and MIA interchageable (like JFK, LGA and EWR) and select among the airports based upon price and schedule - of course, FLL is more convenient if you are going to Pompano, but if the fare is significantly cheaper into PBI or MIA, leisure pax will make the drive (most tourists rent cars anyway).

AA's move at FLL is a clever one, by opening some direct services to Latin America/Caribbean out of FLL, they take some pressure off of MIA and prevent from another carrier operating a competing hub in their backyard.
 
rockyracoon
Posts: 1010
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:58 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:37 am

With loads good at cvg, does anyone see a possibility of a mainline flight(s) in the spring to MIA?

Tim
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24558
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:42 am

With loads good at cvg, does anyone see a possibility of a mainline flight(s) in the spring to MIA?


I think it is highly unlikely, especially since American Airlines no longer flies to CVG. I won't not be surprised to see if the American Eagle flight went daily or double-daily, but look for them to stick with Eagle. Also, not a lot of F demand between the cities, so RJs do the job fine.
a.
 
Air1727
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:57 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:28 am

Sorry, it just doesn't equate, but everyone is entitled to their view. The urban development and lets also say "recycling" of Miami and Miami Beach are big projects, but the giant community developments of Broward and Palm Beach just destroy any premise of Miami-Dade having any comparable growth. In order to keep up with the wealth (which is just as heavy in Broward and Palm Beach; some municipalties in Palm Beach burry areas of Miami in wealth comparisons), population boom, and commerce, Fort Lauderdale will become a major player in air travel; because it will *have* too. Even more so than it is now. Traffic is not bad? no comment...
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:04 pm

Considering that 40% of the worlds wealth and over 80% of the US wealth is controlled by one zip code in S Florida 6 months a year I think the pompous attitude that FlyMia has about the amazing upscale residents of Miami-Dade County is heresy. Palm Beach Florida zip code 33480 is the money central of South Florida. Not Miami, Miami Beach or any other Miami Dade County area. In case you did not know it... Palm Beach is in Palm Beach County.

Now as for MIA, PBI, FLL and the rest.

Miami is the de facto international gateway for South Florida

Ft Lauderdale is considered by most (but certainly not all) as the most convenient airport for North Dade and Broward Counties

Southern Palm Beach County goes to FLL or PBI depending on price or schedule. MIA is used for International Nonstops by those whom do not wish to connect in ATL, NYC, or WAS.

Central Palm Beach County to Port St Lucie/Ft Pierce goes to PBI.

Anything North of there goes to Orlando.

The Keys are strange...

Many Keys Residents bypass Miami for its traffic and clutter and stay on the turnpike into FLL. Some fly from EYW to MIA or FLL then out. And a few even fly from MTH to FLL and out.


Now as for AAs moves... Well lets be real...

FLL to SJU was around for several years and AA has competed with TZ, TW, and now NK on the route.

TW also flew to AUA from FLL (via SJU) and had codeshare and connecting service to SDQ, STT, SXM, EIS, VIJ, STX, and others.

AA has the full hub in SJU to look at.

NK filed two or three years ago for FLL-CCS, FLL-SDQ, and FLL-PAP. What was interesting was that within 48 hrs of the NK filing hitting the DMS, AA filed for it and started a tremendous campaign to win the rights.

They did and then deferred service till recently.

The real goal was to keep an ultra low fare carrier that was not fiscally unstable out of the motherland of high yields. It worked sort of....

Eventually, NK filed for some other routes... CUN is an example... The DOT did not bite AAs line this time and NK got it.

NK refiled on PAP SDQ and a few others earlier this year and the DOT gave AA a use it or loose it ultimatum.. (See http://dms.dot.gov)

They started the service and it is reasonably successful...

But before you go reading to much into this remember AA always knew it would be. However at the cost of its service from MIA and the FLL-SJU connections. Why hurt a market you have to start another when you will only be taking from yourself? It is not that any of these events are going to cost the carrier money... Rather, It could have made more keeping things status quo and not having to so often dump seats with net saver etc on empty flights for $188 RT vs $568 RT.... (See AA.com and subscribe to NetSavers.)

No the real battle is yet to come. There will be and already are a number of challenges to AA's South Florida / Latin America, Caribbean stranglehold. Pan Am / Travelspan are near daily FLL-POS this month, They are continuing indefinitely now.

NK is getting fiesty and with lots of cheap MD80s on the way and rumored 757s too things could be real interesting in the next few years.

Avianca, Aeromexico, Royal Aurbian, Cayman Airways are all now up and running.

TMA is looking at FLL as a Latin America Gateway for P-T-P charters.

USA3000 is looking at FLL as a Caribbean, Mexico Gateway

And finally, Jet Blue has said already if the runway issue at FLL is resolved they intend to make FLL their gateway to Caribbean expansion...

It will be interesting...

One last comment for FlyMIA....

At least FLL's BCAD with all its trouble has no where near the level of corruption and ineptitude as MDAD. Miami has wasted more money on less functionality in the last 15 years then the entire FLL updates since the 1960s have cost and Miami has not seen the growth that FLL has.

A C Vitale - A long time veteran of MIA, FLL and PBI commercial aviation
 
AC320
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:17 pm

I know Gainesville has been talking to AA about opening up routes to the New York area and Dallas. AA also mentioned the distince possibility of MIA-GNV service, wonder if anyone has heard any rumours or info regarding this possible route and when it may start?

Details have been pretty sketchy up here.
fuddle duddle
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:28 pm

MIA-GNV and FLL-GNV have been tried several times by various carriers and to whit have yet to be successful. The last time I saw FLL-GNV it was initially set to 3-5 times daily and failed miserably with 5-8 pax per flight at low low yields.

Unless GNV is set to guarantee revenue I doubt we will see this service.

Now going North from GNV is another story... High yields and service that may see a certain ATL based LCC adding RJs soon.

A C Vitale
 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:31 pm

Well I do know that the city, backed heavily by UF has raised a significant amount of funds to entice new service to GNV. I beleive they covet the direct flight to New York most, there seems to be some demand here and the University definately wants more conveneince for its travel and visitors. Apparently, during talks with AA, the airline itself tendered the idea of additional service to Dallas and Miami....
fuddle duddle
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15265
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:41 pm

Am I the only one that finds it a little odd that AA lets you see the loads on all its flights? Most airlines won't even tell OA nonrevs how many seats are available but AA just lets the world see everything? What's the difference between that link and an employee just typing what SABRE says the flight looks like?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24558
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:43 pm

American Airlines is in talks with GNV officials to start MIA-GNV and DFW-GNV:

http://www.alligator.org/edit/news/issues/stories/031125miami.html
a.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:09 pm

Hmm sounds about like what I said... AA would want big $$$$ to guarantee the route. They say in the article $8 Million for 2 dailys. The consumers want $60-100 for the flight.. (Yeah right) and the airport director and airline say unreasonable...

If and that is a big if they raise $8 million for AA it will be money out the window. The service will last as long as the guarantee and then it will go...

And yes the guarantee will be used up because college students won't pay $500-800 RT to Miami!

I expect similar loads to previous varients... 5-8 pax a flight.

The airport director would be better off using the $8 million to try to get WN in with some flights..

They might offer FLL service for $69-$89 each way far closer to the typical UF student budget. Then AA will.

 
AC320
Posts: 2809
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:29 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:21 pm

Well the service is not intended exclusively for students. UF is hoping to increase transportion options to/from Gainesville for its own purposes of business.

Of course any airline service to the south would be welcomed, even if its only a seasonal offering during peak student travel periods. WN to FLL would be nice, woudn't mind skippinf the 5 hour drive.

Perhaps AA is just throwing ideas around to make it more attractive than Continental, who was in talks exclusively for Newark service.

It would be interesting to see how these talks develop, and if any concrete plans for GNV-FLL/MIA service develop
fuddle duddle
 
AA777MIA
Posts: 671
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:27 pm

Look how long it has taken for the terminal in MIA to get started and it is NO WHERE near being finished right now. FLL has renovated the terminals, built another, and is in the process of finshing a parking garage and hotel on the property. FLL is much more civilized... I prefer to fly and work out of there. Yes MIA is a major hub for my employer and it is not their fault that it is such a mess down there, but I really wish that Miami Dade Airport Authority would get their act together....

As far as expansion in FLL,,, have heard the following, that AA filed for FLL-BOG (which we did not get), FLL-SJO, FLL-LRM, and there are rumors of FLL-LAS, FLL-SFO... FLL-RDU (AE) is starting back again as well...
 
airliner777
Posts: 411
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:46 pm

"Doesn't the short runway length,......"

South African Airways B747-400s used to take off from 9L/27R bound FLL-JHN many times with 15+++ hours of fuel onboard.  Big grin


Fly safe,
Adel

[Edited 2003-12-08 05:46:44]
 
DB777
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RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:39 pm

I made a mistake in my first post where I said FLL has had more O&D pax than MIA for at least five years - it should have said domestic O&D passengers.

I've read all of the above comments and offer these comments either in agreement or in rebuttal:

1. While there's all kind of impressive condo development downtown and in the Brickell area, it pales in comparison population-wise to new home construction north of Miami-Dade. The center of population for South Florida will continue to move northward as more people move out of Miami-Dade for more desirable developments in Broward, Palm Beach and Martin counties. As the center of population moves northward it will only result in more growth for FLL and PBI. The latest figures that I've seen, and it's been a while, is that 800,000 to 1,000,000 people have moved out of Miami-Dade for points north of here since 1960. Granted, the majority of them have more than been replaced by immigrants from other countries, along with other people from up north but the exodus of people northward will continue as people reach retirement age and say screw it, let's move to a saner area with a lower cost of living, lower home prices, lower insurance costs, lower medical costs, uncongested roadways, less crime, fewer crooks and drug dealers, etc. I've lived in the Miami area since 1951 and virtually everyone that I grew up with has fled this county many years ago. High school reunions are often held upstate or in other states because virtually everyone who grew up here in the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's has moved out. Reunions held here in Miami-Dade County suffer attendance problems because people don't want to come back here, even for a short reunion weekend.

2. As pointed out by a post above, the wealth in Palm Beach far outweighs the wealth in Miami. And isn't the City of Miami one of the nation's poorest cities on a per capita basis? I keep reading that in the Miami Herald. And I suppose the wealth on Jupiter Island overwhelms Palm Beach on a per capita basis. But why are we talking about wealth to begin with?

3. Winter tourists from the rest of the USA have long deserted the Miami area for points north of Miami or to the Caribbean islands. Miami used to be the mecca for American snowbirds, with all the big name top entertainers performing at Miami Beach hotels that were filled to capacity every winter season. Hialeah Park used to have the prime winter horse racing dates and it was packed daily every season with big gamblers from up north, who spent fortunes on hotel rooms, rental cars, fine dining, entertainment acts, ladies of the evening, etc. The track is dead now because our domestic tourism dried up. All of those tourists used to fill flights to Miami but for a long time now they've been going to FLL, PBI, MCO, TPA and the Caribbean. Miami has deservedly developed a bad reputation over the years for surly service, crimes against tourists, high prices for mediocre accommodations, language barriers, traffic congestion and as a result tourists are going elsewhere. While SoBe attracts many affluent club goers, the average John Doe and his wife and kids are going to other places to spend their vacation savings and credit card limits. The numerous tourist attractions in the Orlando area have contributed mightily to this area's dramatic decline in domestic tourist business and there's nothing Miami can do to regain it.

4. I stick by my statement about there being no hope in sight for Miami-Dade's traffic problems. Whoever says that traffic isn't bad doesn't watch the traffic gridlock reports on the local TV stations every weekday morning, or spend an hour going less than 10 miles to work like I used to. It's absolutely pathetic that our public officials think they can solve traffic gridlock by wasting the recently voter-approved extra half-cent sales tax money on more buses and Metrofail tracks that will only serve a function for a minute fraction of the commuting public. The growth in vehicle traffic will increase many times over the number of cars being removed from the highways by people riding rails to work or the airport. The rail network isn't one iota of benefit to the tens of thousands of western Broward and Northwest Dade residents who commute to central Miami-Dade county for employment, and it surely doesn't reduce the zillions of commercial vans, dump trucks and semi-tractor trailers that clog our roadways on a daily basis. They should have built additional expressways throughout the county as originally planned instead of wasting billions on a rail system that only has 20% (if that much!) of the projected ridership when people voted on the system. As former President Reagan said many years ago, it would have been cheaper to buy everyone in Miami a new Mercedes than build the Metrorail system.

5. Yes, MIA is the defacto international airport for South Florida - no argument there. But I forgot to mention in my first post that a sizeable percentage of ethnic groups that were exclusively in Miami-Dade county previously are now moving northwards. Weston and other western Broward suburbs have a high percentage of Colombianos and thus service to Colombia from FLL. Miramar has a sizeable Jamaican community and they prefer to fly from FLL. Haitian residents are moving to Broward and Palm Beach counties and so on. International service is going to follow the ethnic groups northward and we've seen numerous international flights added at FLL in the past several years. This international service can not help but increase at FLL, and maybe someday PBI, and decrease at MIA with time.

6. In reference to the south runway extension at FLL, the overall economic benefit to ALL of Broward County will hopefully outweigh the inconvenience to Dania Beach residents. The Broward County Commission will be voting soon on which runway extension option to pursue. I don't think the issue at hand is if the runway will be extended but how long they will extend it.

7. In addition to all of the above, MIA is in a bind similar to what happened at JFK. Not that long ago, at least to me, passengers had to travel thru JFK to get to Europe with few exceptions, and passengers had to travel thru MIA to get to Central America, the Caribbean and South America. JFK developed a horrible reputation with travelers connecting there and MIA's reputation as a connecting airport isn't so great either judging from published polls answered by travelers as to their favorite airports and what they consider to be the worst airports. Anyhow, European international route authorities were then extended by the CAB and U. S. DOT to other US gateways and JFK suffered a tremendous drop in traffic from their peak travel years. The same holds true for MIA in that the former exclusive international markets are now served from a number of US airports north of MIA, notably ATL, EWR, DFW, IAH, JFK, ORD, MCO, etc. Even US Airways is diverting Caribbean traffic through CLT. This significant increased competition from other airports, other airlines, and even American Airlines through their other international gateways, has adversely affected MIA's international share of the markets served and it will undoubtedly continue to hinder MIA's growth in the future.

8. To the comment above about South African taking off from FLL, their flights took off for Atlanta, not South Africa. FLL used to be a fuel stop only on the northbound leg.

Don
Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24558
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:10 pm

Look how long it has taken for the terminal in SA - Florida">MIA to get started and it is NO WHERE near being finished right now.


No where near being finished? Concourse D expansion is complete (was supposed to open 15 November. I have no idea if it did or not). The rest is opening November 2006. I'm not going to doubt that it has been plagued with delays, but it is very near being completed.

that SA)">AA filed for SA - Florida">FLL-BOG (which we did not get), SA - Florida">FLL-SJO, SA - Florida">FLL-LRM,

SA)">AA has not filed for SA - Florida">FLL-SJO nor SA - Florida">FLL-LRM. I have definitley heard the SA - Florida">FLL-SJO rumours, but they have not filed anything.

The numerous tourist attractions in the Orlando area have contributed mightily to this area's dramatic decline in domestic tourist business and there's nothing Miami can do to regain it.

Miami is a premium, international tourist destination. That has been it's place for a while, and it has no plans at changing it. Miami attracts tourists from France and Argentina rather than Detroit and Philadelphia. But dramatic decline? Get real. That is an overstatement. Miami's tourism industry is one of the best performing in the country right now. Miami was ranked as one of the five most popular tourist destinations for American this year according to American Express travel agents, along with Honolulu, Orlando, New York City, and Las Vegas.

8. To the comment above about South African taking off from SA - Florida">FLL, their flights took off for Atlanta, not South Africa. SA - Florida">FLL used to be a fuel stop only on the northbound leg.

SA - Florida">FLL was not only a fuel stop. Passengers could get on and off as they pleased. SA even codeshared with Delta on the early morning SA - Florida">FLL-SA - Florida">MCO flight so passengers could get to Orlando quicker than via Atlanta.

This international service can not help but increase at SA - Florida">FLL, and maybe someday SA - Florida">PBI, and decrease at SA - Florida">MIA with time.

Increased international service has so far not cost SA - Florida">MIA anything. It has been there to compliment SA - Florida">MIA service. And rightfully so. As you said, the Ft. Lauderdale area itself is becoming a haven of immigrants itself, but, with a handful of exceptions (French Canadian, Jamaican, Chinese), are nothing compared to the counterpart communities in Miami.

This whole "movement north" thing is way overexaggerated. You make it sound like everyone is deserting Miami to move North and Miami is becoming a ghost town, when the fact is that Miami's population continues to grow at a very healthy rate, as does Ft. Lauderdale's and Palm Beach's. I see no reason why the three cities must compete so much, as they seem to do, when they all represent the same metropolitan region and one community, the fifth largest urban area in the United States. Though the political and economic hub (and largest city) of South Florida is Miami, and will be Miami for a very long period of time to come.

While there's all kind of impressive condo development downtown and in the Brickell area, it pales in comparison population-wise to new home construction north of Miami-Dade.

Yes, it does pale population wise. Though future trends nationwide point towards urban living coming on top once again, and Miami (as well as downtown Ft. Lauderdale) are way ahead of the game.

The center of population for South Florida will continue to move northward as more people move out of Miami-Dade for more desirable developments in Broward, Palm Beach and Martin counties.

Desirable is totally subjective. If you rather live in suburban sprawl right off the Turnpike, than so be it. If someone perfers urban living, than Miami offers it, Palm Beach and north Broward don't.
a.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:38 pm

MAH4546,

I would suggest a check of http://dms.dot.gov the above poster is right on some of the applied for routes.

If you consider crimes like rape, murder and theft to be urban living then you are right and Miami-Dade leads the way for urbanization.

Seriously, How can you not reflect on the downtown areas of FLL and PBI as not being urban. I lived in Kendall and South Beach and the quality of life was NOTHING compared to living in Palm Beach County where I do not have to worry about 1.5 hr commutes to go to work 7 miles away, if my home will be burglurized, or worse....

But, back to aviation....

MIA - Leads the region with International Departures
FLL - Leads the region with Domestic Departures
PBI - Makes life easy for its locals with the most civilized of the three airports.
 
latinaviation
Posts: 1162
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:25 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:21 pm

From one of the original posts. AA does not block seats next to Elites in Y any longer, but they do block off seats. Generally, it's the first two rows of the main cabin, the exit rows and the last one or two rows of the aircraft. This can vary by aircraft and route. Generally speaking, and particularly to the Caribbean, blocked seats can be misleading given the high amount of no-shows.
 
AA777MIA
Posts: 671
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:30 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:05 pm

Concourse D was supposed to open in July, then November, and now it is slated to open in February... MAH4546, when is the last time you were at MIA.. It is no where near being completed... Yes, they have set a date, but considering how long its taken to get to the point we are at now, that date will change again...
 
Air1727
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:57 am

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:03 am

AC, it is no doubt amusing how people try to justify Miami as being this incredible city with all of this balance, life, and wealth. Sad part is that is was at one time. Now? Forget it. Not even worth discussing. As for Miami Airport, same thing; nothing but corruption and probably some of the most incredible wasteful spending I have ever seen.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24558
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:51 am

would suggest a check of http://dms.dot.gov the above poster is right on some of the applied for routes.

I checked. American Airlines has not submitted anything regarding FLL-LRM nor FLL-SJO service as of yet. I have heard FLL-SJO is going to happen this summer. It would make sense, as San Jose is one of Miami's biggest O&D markets.

Seriously, How can you not reflect on the downtown areas of FLL and PBI as not being urban.

As I said, downtown Ft. Lauderdale, as well as many parts of south Broward, are an extremely urban place.

I do not have to worry about 1.5 hr commutes to go to work 7 miles away, if my home will be burglurized, or worse....

I live in downtown (when I'm in Miami), and I have never had to worry about any of that. Miami has that image, but it couldn't be farther from the truth. Just ask the many people who actually live in the city. It's not perfect, but it is not the hell hole you think it is.

MAH4546, when is the last time you were at MIA..

I fly in and out of it about monthly now that I am splitting my living between Miami and Chicago, though I am living in Chicago's South Side, I fly ATA to go to Midway non-stop.

AC, it is no doubt amusing how people try to justify Miami as being this incredible city with all of this balance, life, and wealth. Sad part is that is was at one time. Now? Forget it. Not even worth discussing.

Miami is a much greater city now than it has ever been. It is safer, friendlier, and a much better place to live than the crime-ridden, drug haven Miami of the late 70s and 1980s. It has all the problems of a big city...crimes, drugs, corruptions. But every major city faces the same problems.

But, back to aviation....

Agreed.
a.
 
jeffie813
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 3:18 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:36 am

As I said, downtown Ft. Lauderdale, as well as many parts of south Broward, are an extremely urban place.

as someone who lives in downtown west palm beach, i find it funny that for some reason you don't consider it "urban". with clematis st., flagler, cityplace, ,el cid, flamingo park, and northwood (all parts of downtown WPB) you do have an extremely urban area. add to that the fact that 12 high rise condos are under construction downtown right now, along with a 30-40 story hotel at the newly opened convention center located downtown. is it as big as downtown miami? no. is it urban? yes.

miami and miami beach are the future

if that's so, why did the u.s. census bureau rename the metropolitan area as of jan. 2004, removing miami beach and replacing it with west palm beach? the reason is that the population of miami beach was exceeded by west palm beach and that trend will continue.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24558
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: AA: Good Loads On New MIA Routes

Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:57 am

if that's so, why did the u.s. census bureau rename the metropolitan area as of jan. 2004, removing miami beach and replacing it with west palm beach? the reason is that the population of miami beach was exceeded by west palm beach and that trend will continue.

The reason was that it was stupid for it not to include West Palm Beach. It made absolutley no sense to include Miami Beach and not West Palm, because no city in Palm Beach county was represented when it represents a large chunk (1.3M or so) of the area's population. It has nothing to do with population. Hialeah is the second largest city in South Florida, more than 2.5 times the size of West Palm Beach and it exceeds Ft. Lauderdale's population by about 60,000. Miami Beach is still larger than than West Palm Beach population-wise. Sunrise is also larger than West Palm Beach, as well as Coral Springs, Pembroke Pines, and Hollywood. The largest cities in South Florida, in order:

1) Miami
2) Hialeah
3) Ft. Lauderdale
4) Hollywood
5) Pembroke Pines
6) Coral Springs
7) Sunrise
8) Miami Beach
9) West Palm Beach

As well, the recently formed City of Doral is supposedly fits right in between Coral Springs and Sunrise population-wise. If it had anything to do with population, we would have been Miami-Hialeah-Ft. Lauderdale (which we actually were before the merger with Palm Beach).
a.

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