KLM exel
Topic Author
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 10:00 pm

Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:55 am

In what situation an arline makes the desision to increase frequency on a route and in what situation they choose to pute a larger aircraft on that route?
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:04 am

I'd say length of the flight (the shorter, the more likely they'll go for frequency - longer route, more likely to have a larger aircraft) as well as, obviously, slots: if you simply cannot obtail slots that make sense for your operations, then you'll most likely opt for a larger aircraft as well...

But that's just me guessing...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:16 am

Landing slots, gate space - both size and number, length of route, need for matching with a flight bank at a hub, type of traveler on that market (business travelers prefer more options on WHEN to travel), landing fees (is it per operation or by weight?), all sorts of decisions. Also, keep in mind that you just don't have a stack of planes to pull from whenever you want. Everything you put on a route needs to be taken from somewhere else!

Sounds like you are ready for our game (in development)!
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:20 am

InnocuousFox ,

Any idea when the game will be on the market? Is there already a site where we can see previews etc? At least it's nice of you that the game is for free for A.net members.....  Laugh out loud
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:29 am

I thought that it was a shameless plug at first - but, wow, the game free for a.net-members? That's great!!!  Big grin

Nonetheless - drop me a line when it's available, will you? Thanks!
Smile - it confuses people!
 
mbmbos
Posts: 2568
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:32 am

The advantage to offering a larger aircraft with less frequency is improved economy of scale (such as only having to pay a landing fee once, only having to pay for one slot, etc., as mentioned above).

Whereas offering greater frequency attracts more passengers and allows greater potential to feed other flight segments.

So, it's a balance between these two tensions.
 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:34 am

Actually, it was a shameless (yet topical) plug.  Smile Anyway, we are in the process of putting together the playable demo right now and will be presenting it to publishers at the Game Developers Conference in March. If we can secure the publisher funding, it will be out on shelves by next fall. You can see a lot of the information on the game, some screen mockups, etc. on the web site. There is also a message board there for news and questions. Just go to the company url in my profile and you will find it all.

Anyway, I've been doing the Airline AI for the past 2 weeks now and I am dealing with EXACTLY that decision formula right now. I just thought it was amusing to see the subject heading of what I'm working on. It actually is kinda spooky!
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
geg2rap
Posts: 721
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:02 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:38 am

Seem airlines are going for the greater frequency to keep employees busy and meet the demands of high margin travelers.
For example, delta has gone to 5x per day with crj, seemingly timed for when a business traveler would need a flight, we will see how it works out for them. Southwest is able to dominate a route by frequency. After all the name of the game is profit.
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:41 am

InnocuousFox ,

That site looks absolutely COOL!!! To bad Europe isn't included (yet).
Guess you have to start somewhere..... Can't wait till it comes out..

KL911
 
yegbey01
Posts: 1349
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:04 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:50 am

Frequency is more attractive especially to business travelers. If you are running a flight o Cancun.. you know that the majority of pax are going for a vacation. You don't need to have a very convenient scehdule...


If the flight is out of a hub, then it may be taken into consideration whether running a larger plane is beneficial versus flying a number of flights instead.

I am not sure there's a clear cut answer to this question, it really depends on a number of factors
 
Jaws707
Posts: 667
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:45 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:53 am

Some routes like from Europe to Asia need to depart at certain times to keep the flight within reasonable departure/arrival hours. Routes like these will require larger aircraft because it is very difficult to increase frequency to other times.
 
yegbey01
Posts: 1349
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:04 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:03 am

Frequency is more attractive especially to business travelers. If you are running a flight o Cancun.. you know that the majority of pax are going for a vacation. You don't need to have a very convenient scehdule...


If the flight is out of a hub, then it may be taken into consideration whether running a larger plane is beneficial versus flying a number of flights instead.

I am not sure there's a clear cut answer to this question, it really depends on a number of factors
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:06 am

Higher frequencies are better for the customer, bigger aircraft are better for the airline, in general.

For short routes with low trip costs, it could make business sense to do a.

For long routes with high trip costs (like tip-to-tip flights LHR-SIN) a larger aircraft clearly makes sense.

N
 
ckfred
Posts: 4732
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:26 am

AA wrestled with this question in the early 90s. It used to be that almost every flight out of ORD to beyond the Rockies was a wide-body, either 767 or DC-10. This included, SAN, LAS, LAX, SFO, PHX, and SEA.

When the airlines started losing money, a lot of DC-10s were grounded. So, a number of 767s were pulled out of domestic service and switched to trans-Atlantic routes. This meant that some 757s and a lot of MD-80s started flying long-haul domestic routes out of ORD. A lot of cities then saw their frequencies increase. For example, ORD-LAX went from 10 or 12 round trips per day to 16. ORD-DFW went from 14 to 23 round trips daily.

The only reason this worked was that a lot of MD-80 pilots, particularly F/Os, were on B-scale for wages. Between the B-scale for the F/O, a typical MD-80 captain making less than a DC-10 captain, and no F/E on the MD-80, it made economic sense to drop DC-10s from a route and operate a larger number of flights with MD-80s.

Once AA got rid of the two-tiered pay scale for pilots, then the advantages of flying so many narrow-bodies on a route decreased.
 
Ex_SQer
Posts: 1351
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:43 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:07 am

Don't forget, bilateral agreements often limit number of flights as well, hence the usage of larger aircraft on high density routes when frequencies are restricted.
 
Gemuser
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:00 am

Jaws707's point is very important on the true long hauls. For example on SYD-LHR pratical departure times from SYD are limited to about 6 - 10am and 5 - 9pm taking into account curfews, transport to/from airport etc, but not slot constraints. Add slot constraints at both LHR & SYD and bigger aircraft make more sense than more frequency.
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
ssides
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Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:09 am

Don't forget the role of the market and passenger demand. In the US, a business traveler is usually more time-sensitive. He doesn't care if he's flying on a 777 or a 757, he wants several options to get from point A to point B. In Asia, however, people prefer widebodies (and widebodies in some of the most densely populated routes aren't the enemy of frequency). Most Asian airlines have very few widebodies in their fleets, simply because people prefer them.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
InnocuousFox
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Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Extra Frequency Or Larger Aircraft?

Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:21 pm

Do you realize that like 4 of us talked about the business passenger and timeliness of flights?  Nuts
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!