GalvanAir777
Posts: 201
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:28 am

2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:12 am

The Following is from the Chicago Sun-Times:


2nd close call in 2 days for jets at O'Hare, FAA says

December 12, 2003

BY ANA MENDIETA Staff Reporter

For the second time within a two-day period, two jets came too close to each other while landing at O'Hare Airport, the Federal Aviation Administration reported Thursday.

At 10:30 p.m. Wednesday, a westbound Air France 747 on approach to an east-west O'Hare runway drifted off course because of high winds, FAA spokeswoman Elizabeth Isham Cory said. It encroached into the path of a westbound American Airlines MD-80, also attempting to land on a parallel runway nearby.

The planes came within about 2.5 miles of each other horizontally and 500 feet vertically before air traffic controllers moved them, Cory said.

The FAA was investigating for pilot error, Cory said.

The incident came a day after a Mexicana Airlines flight made an apparent wrong turn and was on a collision course with a landing United Airlines flight. The incident happened at 6:45 p.m. Tuesday when the Mexicana pilot was told to turn right on approach to O'Hare but instead turned left.

The two planes were one mile apart at 8,000 feet.

Please Post your thoughts here
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InnocuousFox
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:32 am

Well, the 74- would have been for the left side. I can't imagine him drifting that far, though. The interesting thing is, the runways aren't 2.5 miles apart. They must have been way outside the marker because if they are established on the approach, all bets are off on incursions with the parallel. So really the 3 mile sep ring isn't in effect at that point. I just can't get a picture of this.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:39 am

Could it be AF Cargo?
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
potomac
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:39 am

yeah, first the idea of a 2.5 mile horizontal separation being an issue seemed odd to me, whether it was 500 feet vertical separation or 0. and drifting off course due to high winds?...did they not have their ILS turned on?
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:46 am

"did they not have their ILS turned on?"

Likely the issue with that would have been overshooting the LOC on the intercept. That can happen quite easily if you have a stong cross wind. You don't turn in soon enough or sharp enough and you wander over the LOC and have to backtrack a bit.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
GalvanAir777
Posts: 201
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:28 am

RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:55 am

10DEC 2003 AirFrance Cargo.com
| AF6406 | CDG | ORD | Departs: 1955 | Arrives: 2230 | 74F | 0


"Where did you find this piece of crap story?"

Why even bother posting if you where going to have such a terrible attitude. If you read the figgion article it said The Chicago Sun-Times

And to further dispute your terrible attitude i went to Airfrancecargo.com and got the flight information above.


So the question i ask you is "Where did you get your peice of crap attitude?"
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767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:57 am

Air France 747 to ORD? No.
Arriving at 10:30PM? Don't think so.
Where did you find this piece of crap story?


Um, JCS buddy: It could have been any one of these CARGO flights:


AF6428 Arrive ORD 2145 74F
AF6452 Arrive ORD 2200 74F
AF6400 Arrive ORD 2200 74F
AF6458 Arrive ORD 2105 74F

I KNOW you're not just trying to be an asshole.....


 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:58 am

I see Galvan and I had the same idea at the same time!
 
GalvanAir777
Posts: 201
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:28 am

RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:00 am

I really has great disdain for people who just because they think there so damn smart about everything in aviation think Christ, they are automatically right. Case in point the above post where Ill leave his name unknown but you know who IM talking about thinks they know just about everything. When myself and another poster posted information to discredit his obviously ridiculous opinion.
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potomac
Posts: 692
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:02 am

sure, i can see overshooting the localizer when turning on to final, but i can't imagine it would go that long without being corrected, whether on a visual or ILS approach. but still, whats the big deal about 2.5 mile separation?
 
767Lover
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:03 am

what do you expect when someone lists "drinking beer and pumping chicks" as their hobbies.
 
GalvanAir777
Posts: 201
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:05 am

767Lover, It makes me wonder what those 61 people where thinking when they added the above named to there respected list.  Nuts
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767Lover
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:09 am

Funny you say that because while you were writing that (about the respected users) I was adding you to my respected users list. Welcome!
 
GalvanAir777
Posts: 201
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:28 am

RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:12 am

Thank you  Smile your my first one!
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CactusA319
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:12 am

I KNOW you're not just trying to be an asshole.....

Um, yeah he actually might be trying to do just that.


Doesn't appear as if the Sun-Times did a good job describing what happened here. I'm left trying to picture exactly how these planes could have possibly had a near miss. Guess I'll have to look at the radar track data next week to see where those two could have gotten "close".

 
petazulu
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:13 am

Jcs17,

Wow- you are on the wrong side of bed today? Under what basis do you think the story is "crap"? Sounds like you might be basing it on some information?

The media gets aviation stuff wrong all the time- but still...
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:49 am

"Doesn't appear as if the Sun-Times did a good job describing what happened here."

Imagine that... journalists writing about things they just don't understand.  Insane

"left trying to picture exactly how these planes could have possibly had a near miss"

Remember, they could be flying all but parallel and still be within the magic circle. They may not colide on their course for another 20 nm, but it still is a deal.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
CactusA319
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Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 1:51 am

RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:54 am

Remember, they could be flying all but parallel and still be within the magic circle. They may not colide on their course for another 20 nm, but it still is a deal.

Gotcha. It's looking like it was a boderline deal at that. If so, this is just another case of media overblowing something trivial. Imagine that.

 
CactusA319
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Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 1:51 am

RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:50 am


Looked up the radar track replay of the incident and it all became clearer:

The AF Cargo 742 was lining up with the ILS for Runway 27R (kind of odd, as cargo usually lands on the left side). The AA MD-83 was lined up for 27L. Over the lakefront, the 742 began to drift and basically encroached on the MD-83's path, causing the AA plane to execute a go-around. The 742 realigned with the ILS for 27R and landed while the MD-83 went around the pattern and eventually landed on 27L.

Looking at the replay, it appears the two planes were closer than the 2.5 miles reported by the Sun-Times and were definitiely closer than 1,000 ft. vertically. More like 500 ft. My guess for the encroachment was high crosswinds, as other aircraft seemed to be drifting somewhat, altough not as dramatically as the AF 742.



 
InnocuousFox
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:52 am

"Looked up the radar track replay of the incident and it all became clearer:"

Sounds like someone has Flight Explorer!
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
CactusA319
Posts: 2821
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 1:51 am

RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:07 am


Nah I didn't do it on Flight Explorer. Can you do replays on FE? I used a noise monitoring system here at work that stores flight track data and can replay a certain time period. Pretty neat stuff.

 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:08 am

"Can you do replays on FE?"

Only on the Professional edition. That was the software they used to go back and look at the 9/11 stuff.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
ILoveORD
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:20 am

RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:22 am

Would anyone like to blame this incident on the AF crew's "poor" understanding of spoken English, hence their ATC miscommunications?? I'm sure someone would....*  Big grin

*Refering to last week's original near miss thread; see Reply #9.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1297852/

[Edited 2003-12-16 20:22:49]
Backhanding the left into submission, one activist judge at a time.
 
pilotntrng
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:13 pm

RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:30 am

I thought the classification for a near miss was delegated when the 1000 foot bubble was breached. If they were 2.5 miles apart, regardless of the vertical separation, isn't that legal? IM probably wrong, but I thought I would jump in the mix LOL  Smile
Booooo Lois, Yaaaa Beer!!!
 
contrails
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RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:53 am

This makes me very uncomfortable. What is going on here?
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InnocuousFox
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Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: 2nd Close Call In As Many Days Over ORD

Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:26 am

"This makes me very uncomfortable. What is going on here? "

You mean the incident? Nothing but business as usual. Just because you don't hear about ATC "deals" doesn't mean they don't happen. Just because you heard about this one shouldn't make you any more uncomfortable that you were before.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!