ouboy79
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:49 am

Flight 1822 from Mexico City to Detroit, an A-319, diverted to TOL after declaring a fuel emergency. No significant weather in DTW at the time, they just didn't have enough to make it the extra 50 miles. Plane is/was parked at Northwest's Gate 4; jetbridge not connected of course.

Flight should be heading back on to DTW shortly.
 
Captain_777
Posts: 273
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2000 11:18 pm

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:10 am

Thanks for sharing. That's interesting to hear. Aviation news always comes here on airliners.net first rather than the news. I love that luxury!
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:04 pm

How could they not have enough fuel, was there a VERY strong head wind?
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:16 pm

I'm wondering if the major storm over Oklahoma has anything to do with it. Maybe they didn't plan enough for having to fly well around this storm. If I find anything out will pass it on.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:10 pm

Just an update from what I've been told...

NWA1822 called TOL approach declaring a fuel emergency.

About 10 minutes prior to arrival, 1822 called the tower and (allegedly) stated that they were unsure whether or not they can make the field. At that time, all airline employees were requested to go outside as observers/witnesses - just incase.

Plane landed with 96 passengers.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:31 pm

FYI- emergency declaration of fual means estimated fuel on arrival is below 20 minutes of burn....


Glad to hear they made it ok. I wonder what happened...usually you have more than enough gas.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Guest

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:16 pm

"Diversion/delay due to enroute weather conditions"
 
Bobs89irocz
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:52 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:51 pm

I as a refueler normally put alittle extra on (i do alot of CRJ's and put about an extra 100 pounds or so on.) with a bigger jet ill give them alittle more. Such as a 747 ill give him about 1000 pounds more then expected. The reason being is most of the time the pilots like it and in cases like this. However maybe they had alot of weight and couldnt fully load the plane to is max fuel limit. Comming from Mexico city im sure it had alot of cargo. Not to mention like a few others have the weather was a facter so they had to do alittle more flying around then expected. Atleast it didnt end up like the AC 767.
 
chgoflyer
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:16 pm

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:53 pm

I heard that the gauges on the airbus were faultly
Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:05 pm

Bob,
You say you add some extra fuel and I'm sure that they are aware of this up in the office as they read the fuel gauges to do their calculations and things of that nature. But do you not ask them first or at least tell them that you have done it? I think that would make a bit of a change in their weight-even though how insignificant it is-it's still a change.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:00 am

I was a bit surprised when I read this (by Ouboy79): At that time, all airline employees were requested to go outside as observers/witnesses - just incase. What is the reasoning behind this? Is it to have witnesses in case of a crash? Or is there another reason behind it?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
RP TPA
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 1999 9:40 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:18 am

Um.......maybe so some of them can take pics to show on A.Net? (j/k)
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:55 am

>>>I as a refueler normally put alittle extra on

Please don't do this....

There's an old fable about the cook throwing an extra pinch of salt in the pot of whatever was cooking, and subsequent passers-by to the kitchen, each unaware of one another, each put their own pinch of salt into the pot. I think this is where the old expression "too many cooks spoil the broth" comes from.

When it comes to a fuel load, it first starts with the airline's dispatcher (here in the US), and s/he considers all the various weather and operational factors for that flight. One of the things that the dispatcher has to "balance" is overall fuel versus payload. Sometimes, it's a tight fit, and to get all your desired payload, you can take X-fuel, and anything over X-fuel will leave the flight overweight for departure. The captains and operations agents know when a flight is "tight" and know NOT to add "a little extra" to prevent an overweight situation. No disrespect to you as a fueler, but situationally, you can't be in a position to know whether a flight is "tight" on weight or not, and your arbitrarily adding extra fuel may create a problem.

When a an overweight situation is created (from over-fueling), one of two things usually happens:

(1) The aircraft will need to be defueled in an amount necessary to bring the aircraft back within max allowable takeoff weight. Defueling is not always as quick or easy as one might think, since it requires empty tank truck space. If the fueler has already left to top-off his/her truck, you may have to wait until they fuel another aircraft, freeing up some space. Airports that have hydrant (underground) systems and just using pumping trucks/carts and might not readily have available tank trucks.

(2) If it's going to take long while to defuel, the other option is to remove payload. If that's freight or mail, it doesn't complain too much, but if you're yanking folks off the aircraft, they usually don't take it very well.

In either case, above, the delay gets attributed to the fueler. I'm sure you don't want your boss on you...

Cheers...  Big grin

[Edited 2003-12-13 17:24:03]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Kohflot
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 1999 5:31 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:59 am

Someone beat me to it!  Big grin
Ask why..
 
jjbiv
Posts: 1203
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:58 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 2:07 am

Didn't this happen once before? I seem to remember seeing a lone NW Airbus flight from Mexico parked between gate 6 and the cargo building in the late 90s...

joe
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 2:31 am

OPNLguy, you are very correct that no re-fueler should play around with the fuel load on his own volition. Fortunately, I don't think he is actually a re-fueler. His profile claims he has no job other than "Watching Airplanes, flying, ridding[sic] motorcycles, working on my car." Undoubtedly he will claim to be in between re-fueling jobs.






An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:07 am

Back to the original topic, I looked at the sites for Toledo newspapers and TV stations, and didn't see word one of any NWA diversion. Not saying it didn't happen, just that it wasn't reported when I had looked.

Speculation here, but if something did happen, it probably wasn't from something "normal" in the sense of ATC delays (if any) less winds aloft than forecasted (lower tailwinds) or other stuff you'd normally expect. I'm not familiar with A319 performance, but Mexico City is a high-elevation airport than can lower takeoff weights. If this was a "tight" flight as far as fuel/payload, they would have known about this beforehand, and during the flight, fuel checks would have been accomplished. If it ever would have appeared that they would have insuffient fuel to reach DTW, the aircraft would have been landed short (diverted) to someplace like SDF, IND, CVG, DAY, or FWA. The situation never would have been pushed to the point where they were not sure if they could make the airport in TOL.

Continuing speculation, whatever happened (if something did) did so quickly, and a fuel quantity system malfunction would be a likely suspect. Republic has a DC-9 on a FAT-PHX flight back in the 1980s that was short of fuel and went into Luke AFB just west of PHX, and they were on the verge of fuel starvation, IIRC. The crew thought the aircraft had been fueled overnight in FAT, but it hadn't been, and a stuck gauge made them thought that it had been. I think the gauge started working enroute, and clued them in to their true fuel state.

It'll be interesting to see what info, if any, exists, or whether the event even happened....
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:18 am

Bobs, if you ever fuel one of my planes like that, it will be the LAST time you fuel an airplane.

That is actually a violation of FARs (in the US) to over ride a captain's command, and most of the time that is to add "x" per side.l

If you are fueling more than the captain asks, I pray you tell them it was a mistake. I don't know of ANY pilots who appreciate fuelers adding "a lil bit more" gas...

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:23 am

>>>That is actually a violation of FARs (in the US) to over ride a captain's command,

Which FAR is that?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1432
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:06 pm

"Back to the original topic, I looked at the sites for Toledo newspapers and TV stations, and didn't see word one of any NWA diversion. Not saying it didn't happen, just that it wasn't reported when I had looked. "

It definitely happend  Big grin I marshalled out our last flight of the night and saw the emergency vehicles out so I went out to the end of the ramp and was VERY surprised to see a NW A319... The media around here is kind of crappy in the sense of aircraft emergencies. When Grande Air had their crash a while ago, Detroit stations had a chopper hovering over the site before the first news broke here in Toledo. Just the world we live in here in TOL  Sad

Ry
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4114
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:57 pm

One reason why you may not have seen any word in the TOL press about the diversion, is because it happens all the time. TOL is the main diversion airport for NW in regards to DTW bound flights. There's usually a couple times during the year when Northwest will have 7-10 planes parked on the ramps in TOL because DTW is screwed up.

Not to self promote, but if you want to know what is going on at TOL go to flytoledo.com. A number of us from here keep things updated there quite often. Not to mention get a pic of the events up right away. LOL
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:20 pm

To add to the fuel issue:

Thanks, but no thanks.

Dispatch usually does a great job figuring in reserves. If the flight crew doesn't like it, they'll request more. So the amount you are given on your load sheet is the amount you should stick to, period.

If you don't report the overfills (which if you still have a job, it should be pretty obvious that you dont') then you run the risk of screwing up the weight and balance. 300 pounds of Jet-A might not sound like a significant amount, but if it's enough to nudge the aircraft over MGTOW there's a huge problem. Suppose Mr. FAA walked out onto the ramp and dripped the tanks and weighed the airplane (not likely but you really never know)...the airline would be fined and you'd be canned in a heartbeat.

Safety issues aside, tankering unneccessary fuel may not always make good economic sense...maybe not significant but hey, a penny saved is a penny earned, right?


And to the up-and-coming pilots on the board:

If it is humanly possible, WATCH the fuelers on the airplane. Dip the tanks immediately afterwards and do the smell/visual test before you even think about flying. I've requested to be topped off and ended up with only 5 gallons extra per tank (which would have put me below the amount I required to make it to my destination). Also, I caught a fueler heading to my 182 in a Jet-A truck once....couldn't believe it until I saw him stop at the airplane and get out his ladder.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
fourstripe
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:58 pm

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:25 pm

Hello All!

As a line attendant at the local airport, we see our fair share of regional airliner fueling as well as every single type of GA and military aircraft under the sun. An explanation on airliner fueling procedures:

Airliner fueling is very straightforward... you put in exactly what is dispatched... no more and no less. The only exception is if the Captain says otherwise. I cannot believe that another fueler would purposely overfuel an aircraft and not report it. True, mistakes happen, but you always report those. Another common problem on some of the older aircraft are the external fuel cut-off switches that don't work all of the time. This can result in a slight overfueling as well (30-60 lbs).

P.S.
If it is humanly possible, WATCH the fuelers on the airplane
I would have to say that 99.9% of us fuelers know what we are doing. You don't have to watch us every step of the way, we will take good care of you and your aircraft. That is our job, and we are extensively trained for it. As to the fueler driving up to a Cessna 182 with a Jet-A truck, he should be fired on the spot. (Not that he could have gotten any fuel into the plane, Cessna fuel caps are smaller than Jet-A nozzles, and the difference would be immediately noticed)  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
“Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.” - Edward Vernon Rickenbacker
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2821
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:38 pm

I always double check what load the crew gives me. If it's a plane with goofy refueling procedures(like a westwind) I also double check to make sure I'm following the correct procedure. I'd much rather piss off a pilot by asking him 3 or 4 times if I'm unsure than put the wrong amount in. JBird, that happens more often than you think. I've caught myself doing it once, we don't pump much 100LL and it's force of habit to grab the keys to one of the jet trucks. I did realize what I was doing before I got to the 152, unless there's one out there with a PT-6 conversion  Smile There's a reason that JetA trucks have J-spouts on the overwing nozzles. Of course, making the same basic aircraft with both turbine and reciprocating engines doesn't help our cause.

One thing when fueling larger aircraft, I always wait until the gauge is reading the amount that I want to put in. Because of this, there may be extra fuel in the tank because it takes a second for the valve to close. This is especially true on 727s that have been converted to digital gauges. Those have a habit of 'bouncing' to a high number before settling back down. With most carriers, you can go over by a certain percentage of the prescribed weight. But you can't be under. A couple hundred pounds is ok, a couple thousand is out of the question. The crew must sign for the fuel before they leave. If there is a problem, like a discrepancy between the cockpit and fuel panel on the wing, they have more than enough time to point it out.

Yes, I am a fueler. And I have fueled everything from Cessna 140s to MD-11s and everything in between.
DMI
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:38 pm

Fourstripe,

Welcome to A.net!

I just want to apologize if I came across as disrespectful to line guys at all...wasn't intended, I promise  Smile.

As to the fueler driving up to a Cessna 182 with a Jet-A truck, he should be fired on the spot. (Not that he could have gotten any fuel into the plane, Cessna fuel caps are smaller than Jet-A nozzles, and the difference would be immediately noticed)

I think he was...I never saw him again after that. He was also "mentally challenged" (why they let him fuel aircraft in the first place I'll never know), but I've had more fuel problems from that FBO than anyone else...but they are the only ones on-field  Insane). I just meant an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Sorry!
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Bobs89irocz
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:52 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:20 am

Segmentking- I hope i do refuel one of your planes just so you know how or what i do and why.

First off, the fuel load doesnt come from the captain. It comes from operations. I get the captain or fo comming down to me all the time to say "hey put on another 400 pounds" or take some off. ZW ops are always messing up that is why we change fuel loads all the time. Im not sure how your airlines work but ZW sucks. Im not breaking any FAR when the pilot comes to me and changes the fuel load. However, when I change a fuel load the pilots are the first to know, even before i do it i check with them and tell them what i think and why. Alot of times it get the "hey, thats a good idea" line. Im sorry i put it the way i did up there in my other post. I left my self wide open to negative comments and sure enough, you guys dont let up.


Hmmmm- my profile is old, i dont update it everytime something in my life changes, i have a life other then airliners.net and i simply over looked my airliners.net profile. But ill get right on that for you.....maybe later.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:52 am

>>>First off, the fuel load doesnt come from the captain. It comes from operations.

...and ops gets it from the dispatch release that the dispatcher sent to the station, and that the captain signed at the station. The captain and dispatcher have the legalities taken care of--your job is to pump the amount of fuel that the release calls for, and only that amount.


>>>However, when I change a fuel load the pilots are the first to know

If you inadvertantly go over on the planned fuel load on the release, yeah, you've "changed" the fuel load, but if you are intentionally putting on X-more pounds because you think this or you think that (and you convince the captain that it's a good idea), then you are greatly exceeding your authority. Doing so can create all the problems that I mentioned earlier (reply #12) in this thread, and as others have agreed with. Again, please stop adding fuel.


>>>Im sorry i put it the way i did up there in my other post. I left my self wide open to negative comments and sure enough, you guys dont let up.

Well, the first post aside, the most recent one reiterates the same message, and while you may think the responses are negative, another, more constructive way to look at things would be that myself and several others with experience in other areas of airline ops (that you do not have) have offered reasons why you shouldn't overfuel. If only one person had a differing opinion, that'd be one thing, but when several tell you the same thing, you should really consider that as being meaningful, i.e. you could be wrong.

I hope you take all this in the spirit intended....  Big grin

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:23 am

Bob,
Sorry if I come across as haggling you in my original post (Reply 9), however I needed to express my concern as to your professed doings. As OPNL has pointed out, your response to my and others peoples concerns has furthered the case even more. There is a cushion built into the fuel req's and regardless of what you think should be done, the Captain will ask for more fuel if needed.

You probably are good at what you do, and not to talk down to you but wouldn't it be better to express your concern for the fuel load FIRST, ask what the Captain thinks should be done, and go from there?
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:40 am

Wow, there are a lot of sensitive (and insensitive  Big grin ) people on a.net!
This turned into a pilot vs fueler flamewar pretty quickly. I'll add my .02 as an engineer (possibly neutral). Aviation is not a place for a defensive person. Safety requires that everyones work is subject to inspection by others. My work is sometimes required by law to be inspected by another engineer, and even if it isn't I don't mind if someone checks, because I might have screwed up. At an airline, there are so many pilots, fuelers, engineers, etc., that you don't get to know individuals, and so you should check! I once was at an aircraft for a snag, and the fueller, who was just leaving, mentioned in passing that he didn't have to put much in the left wing because it already had 8,000 lb. It didn't strike him as funny that the right wing had 2000 lbs when the flight arrived. I looked in to it, and sure enough the fuel quantity system had a 6,000 lb error in it. Can you imagine what that would be like on takeoff?
Check, check, and doublecheck. If something doesn't seem right, it probably isn't. End of preaching.
 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:52 am

"Please don't do this...."

Welcome to my respected users list.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
GroundStop
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:48 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:23 am

"but ZW sucks"

Hmmm, that's a pretty broad statement. I am responsible for the fuel loads for over 20 ZW flights every evening here in ATL, operating as AirTran JetConnect. The Air Wisconsin dispatchers are very proficient and ZW's internal W/B program is excellent. In fact, I've never heard of any issues regarding ZW flights from any city in the JetConnect system. So, I'd say the issue is with the ORD agents who may need a little retraining. Regardless, if I give the fueler a fuel load, he/she better be within 50 lbs, regardless of what the captain says. If the captain wants to change it, the captain needs to contact the load planner. The load planner has the authority to adjust the fuel level to any point between the Minimum Fuel Level and the Load Permitting Fuel Level. Anything beyond that, above or below, must be approved by ZW dispatch in Appleton. Regardless, its not your call.

JP

AirTran ATL ops
 
CactusA319
Posts: 2822
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 1:51 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:33 am


I worked as an ops agent/loadmaster for a couple of years and I never heard a fueler give a pilot suggestions as to what the actual fuel load should be. That's a first for me.

 
fly727
Posts: 1753
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:27 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:01 am

Give the guy a break. He never thought that adding a bit more fuel could have the serious implications we pilots know about. Great he learnt that in these forums (better if it would have been in a training session though), but definitely better than learning it the hard way -a NTSB accident investigation-.

Take it easy you all... For you dear friends working the line or doing the refueling, remember that the calculations for fuel are very strict and go out after the supervision and analysis of dispatchers, weather forecasters and pilots. If the release or final calls for X make sure X is what gets on board. We all build SAFETY and not acknowledging/following the regs and written specs is just one of many errors in the chain that finally produce an accident.

Keep the blue side up.
RM  Smile
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:49 pm

"Give the guy a break. He never thought..."

You could have stopped right there.

What would be interesting is if the aircraft in question didn't make it because of extra take-off weight from some bonehead adding too much fuel.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:08 pm

InnocuousFox, I think the point is that he (hopefully) knows better now. Hell, I know better now -- if I were ever to work as a fueler, I sure as hell won't be taking any liberties with the fueling having been scared shitless by this thread! Big grin

Besides, Fly727 considered the scenario of an accident, pointing out that it's better to get called on fueling practices now than in the midst of an accident investigation. This discussion has been educational for me, let's hope it's been educational for the folks who hold the lives of passengers (like me) in their hands.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:09 pm

The flight crew should have considered IND, DAY, CVG, or even MEM, before going all the way to TOL. This incident reminds me of two fatal accidents. The Avianca 707 on Long Island, and the UA DC-8-61 at PDX. There is no excuse for that.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:24 pm

>>>The flight crew should have

I haven't even seen any published account that the diversion into TOL occurred, let alone what may have caused it. Isn't it a little premature to say what the crew should have done?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:52 pm

Way to be an armchair pilot there, Rich. There are reasons they went back to TOL. They would have been in contact with dispatch during the diversion procedure and an agreement would have been reached between dispatch and the CA on where to go.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
jjbiv
Posts: 1203
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:58 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:25 am

The diversion did occur. NW's website reflected flt 1822 spending about an hour in TOL on the day in question. In addition, several of the people who post here work at TOL and personally saw the a/c at the gate. Our media outlets are horrible, but, nonetheless, an Airbus stands out at TOL  Wink/being sarcastic

joe
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1432
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:08 am

"I haven't even seen any published account that the diversion into TOL occurred, let alone what may have caused it. Isn't it a little premature to say what the crew should have done?"

Want me to go get the report from the emergency crews at TOL who responded? I can if you need proof that this did happen. I could prolly get the ATC transcripts too if the tower saved them. Once again...the media bites here. This did happen and as joe said...an A319 is twice as big as any other pax plane that flies out of here so I think people would notice it.

Ry
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:08 am

I know the TOL folks had indicated it was there. My point to the guy was that the media (not even the aviation media) had anything on it, and devoid of any info, his comments on what the crew should have done are way premature.

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Bobs89irocz
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:52 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:29 pm

PLEASE NOTE, since my last post i havent read any other replys....

I dont exactly know how to put into words i do my job but a fellow name Jeremy who is a spectator on this board (not a member) was kind enough to back me up on this subject. He understands exacly what im talking about and probably works just the same as i do.

BTW jeremy, i do the BAE-146 (very old aircraft and the gauges are always messed up) and the CRJ-200...

This was emailed to me from Jeremy. Thanks for putting it into words like i couldnt.

"Bob,
I cannot post to the forum as i do not have an account but if you would like to post this you may. While everyone is quick to "grill" somone, many never stop to think of all of the legalities and repsoinabilities that also go into our job. Everyone may say fuel it to the numbers of the release, well i can name quite a few times that should not be done. For clarrification anything related to or about any airline is just my view/opinion and should not be taken to court. I am not sure what different types of a/c you fuel so I will fill in some of the gaps just in case. CRJ series mostly the 100 and 200 series are very bad for gauges rolling. Everday i always add an extra 250lbs to the planned fuel load to compensate for this error. Quite a few times i have to go out on a limb because one of the ord flights has a ground hold, apu is running and the flight crew nowhere to be found. So I end up adding fuel for apu burn while also trying not to overfuel the aircraft just in cas!
e the ground hold gets lifted early. I do not have to do that, i could have fueled the aircraft to the numbers, and had to have refueled it a second time while possibly taking a flight delay in the process. I have been fueling for a little over 3 years and have down pat almost all commercially flown aircraft and from all of the flight crews that i have talked to, almost every single one will want a little bit extra.
Of course there will be a few oddballs in the bunch that will try to fuss over 10 lbs but thats life to me. I had a running with a crj pilot concerning fuel within my first 2 months of fueling. The situation was that when the aircraft was to land in mem, the airport would have just closed 5 minutes prior for runway cleaning. Due to the short hop it is to mem they had a very low fuel load, one that you would expect in mid summer with no weather, and i was asked by the ground crew to check with the pilot to see if he wanted to add any fuel so that he could do some sightseeing before landing in mem. i asked nicely and explained my reasoning and was yelled at and cussed in front of the pax that were deplaning at the time. He screamed to fuel it to the fuel slip and i told him okay and was just passing along the message and fueled it to the numbers. Well, the flight ended up diverting due to not having enough fuel to loiter above mem for 1/2 hour. So not all times are the planne!
rs perfect. This is not a perfect world and will never be.I do have to say that i like UAL's fueling paperwork, letting the fuelers know if the aircraft is pushing it weight wise. One good instance of a fueler speaking up, this happened a few years ago when an a300 was coming out of maintenance and was going back to JFK. Fueler was given the fuel load but knew that it was not enough to make it to jfk. He fueled it to the numbers, but he brought it to the pilots attention that the fuel load was too low and the pilot told him just exactly what i have read in this forum, that he did not know what he was doing and should keep his mouth shut. Fueler did just that. Well, oh about 30 minutes later here comes that same A300 coming back to the airport on low fuel requesting priority due to almost no gas. For some people reading this heres a good note for you. If you are so worried about the fuel, then why are we allowed to consider anything below 300lbs in the center tank on UAL's 73!
7's as 0 lbs? Any pilot i have talked to would rather be a few pounds over than a few pounds under. And one note to all of the armchair pilots or the equiv., yes there are some careless fuelers but there are also a lot of us that know what we are doing and we take our jobs seriously. Please note that every situation is different but many of us do take in all of the considerations and are aware of our actions. Especially with this day in age where the airlines are trying to cut money by not loading up as much fuel as the older days, but operational considerations have to be thought about and took care of. For instance on one DTW i fuel the fuel load is so close that if the apu is running they will not have their required amount at takeoff so it is a neccessity to barely overfuel it.And as you (Bobs89irocz) said the larger the aircraft the more the little bit extra is, that is correct. The 747 apu on some of the older series burns almost 1000 lbs of fuel an hour. Its safe to s!
ay the larger the aircraft the more the engines and apu are going to burn and that needs to be took into consideration by many people in the forum. I can think of many other instances to recollect on, but this is longer than I expected so good day and hope this helps you out. -Jeremy


ps. sorry fo this being so long but i felt i needed to get in a few good points to help out a fellow fueler getting bashed for looking out for someone."

Jeremy is right, you guys forget that the APU burns alot of fuel. On the CRJ-200 it burns 165lbs an hour. That is about all i go over. When an aircraft like the CRJ can fly with 50 pax on board and a 14,000lbs fuel load what is the difference if i give him 7300lbs instead of 7000lbs? Its not like i do that because i dont but think about it.........is the 300 lbs THAT much of a difference for me to loose my job over? If so, get a life and come to reality. I dont mind loosing my $8.50 an hour job. Find someone else that will be loyal to the company and airline on that wage. The ONLY reason i do this is because im around airplanes......the ONLY reason. I dont need the money, or even a job. I just want to be around planes. Just try and find a fueler that is worth anything on this wage. I work with A LOT of guys that can barely speak english or drive a truck (tanker....5000 GALLONS to 15000 GALLONS).
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:39 am

Sorry, but while there are some good points there, I still have to disagree with the idea of adding a bit more. How can the dispatchers plan loads if the fuelers may or may not put that amount in? For example, apu burn. IF there are delays, word gets back to ops that the fuel load wasn't enough. They then change the plan for that flight in the future. Is it possible you are masking a fuel load problem by adding more?
I'm all for people using their heads and trying to help out, but, without the Captains express permission the smart thing for you to do is fuel it to the numbers and don't second guess the system. You have no risk of being fired or open to any legal liability if you fuel it as ordered. Delays are not your fault, or cancellations, and all the pilots and dispatchers in the world can yell at you, but your ass is covered when you do as you're told.
Maybe I'm paranoid, but second guessing the fuel quantity or fuel loads could be another link in the accident chain. God forbid that there should be an incident or accident due to fuel load ( possibly by a faulty quantity indicator) ,
either over or underfuelled, but guess who they're going to talk to along the way? Lawyers aren't going to care if it's`"only 500 lbs" , they'll crucify you for not fuelling it exactly as ordered.
Just some friendly advice from someone who's dealt with an awful lot of fuellers,pilots, and dispatchers over the years.
 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:27 am

To think that you are the only one in the process who could have possibly come up with the idea of compensating for things just reeks of narcisism. You would think that there are people upstairs with calculators and spreadsheets and years worth of data at their disposal who may have already determined something which you "just feel is right". Does it not occur to you that YOUR 300 lbs is already on top of THEIR 300 lbs? So you don't care about losing your $8.50/hr job. If you kill my wife because of your whimsical "I'm just trying to help and damnit I know better than anyone else" attitude, that's a serious problem.

Just a note... whoever loaded that B1900 that crashed on takeoff last winter? I wonder if he thought so lightly of the specifics of his cheapass job as you do?
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:49 am

It appears that the guy has pretty much blown everyone here in the forum off, so it's probably pointless to debate the issue with him any further in an attempt to get him to change his ways...

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
HermansCVR580
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 1999 5:29 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:52 am

Ok so this becomes a pissing match between armchair pilots and the fuelers. I just wanted to point out a few things that can cause more fuel to be added, some times if not most times its hard not to give an aircraft some extra fuel. Some airlines paper work that has the fuel load on it show what they want in each tank, for instance they may say put 9258 pounds in the left and right wings and put 10,261 pounds into the center tank. Aircraft fuel guages dont read like that, so you have to give them more fuel becaus the guage only read in 50 lbs increments. So you would give them 9300lbs in the wings and 10,300 lbs in the center tank. Another thing that causes a plane to get a little extra go go juice is the fuel being pumped into the plane is being pumped a about 50 psi and about 200-400 a minute so when you stop the fuel flow there is still fuel going into the the aircraft for a few seconds after you stop fueling. Now I'm not saying its ok to fuel a plane 1000lbs over what they ask for but a few hundred pounds IS ACCEPTIABLE and UNDERSTOOD!!!! If you can get the fuel guages to read exactly what is given to you on the paperwork then damn you one hell of a great fueler, and I give props to you Smile
The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
 
Kohflot
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 1999 5:31 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:59 am

Maybe it would be good to know where this joker fuels planes..
Ask why..
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:01 am

His profile lists his name, and his employer at ORD... (Not too smart, IMHO)
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
TokyoNarita
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:30 am

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:08 am

Hey Bob,

Quite frankly it's none of your business to see if a plane has enough fuel to make it to MEM or JFK. That's Captain's and the dispatcher's job. You are not qualified and not authorized to question or interfere with that process.

Just fuel as requested unless told otherwise by the crew and do so safely. That's it.

TokyoNarita.



[Edited 2003-12-18 03:25:41]
 
Guest

RE: NWA 1822 Fuel Emergency

Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:51 am

I worked as a loadmaster for several years at HP and let me just say one thing to this fueler. If your not the dispatcher or the captain you have no authority to add anymore or anyless fuel without prior approval. You are a fueler your only job is to put the fuel into the plane that the airline requests. Its not your job to decide if its enough fuel to get from one airport to another airport.

My fuel plans looked like this:

12,500 total

6250 Right
6250 Left

Taxi burn 200
Trip burn 6500
Extra 300

The dispatcher almost always adds that 300 pounds of extra fuel but guess what that 300 pounds is included in the 12,500 pounds of total fuel. So if you add 300 pounds thats 600 extra pounds of fuel.

I have gotten a few fuelers fired over the years for mis-fueling aircraft. Its a pain, its time consuming to get new paperwork if the fueler screws up and I will report any delay caused by a fueler. I really hope one day you come across a captain after just adding fuel and I hope he rips you a new hole.

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