John
Topic Author
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Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:00 am

MAINLINE jet service, not RJ or turboprop. I can't think of too many...mabe a few cities still on the NW route map? I know alot of DL's former Western routes out of SLC, have since gone to Connection service.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:12 am

Good question tho if I might make a suggestion. The question is to vague, you need to have specific questions and not be so general, this is open to interpretation of the person reading the question. What makes a city small, one mans small is another ones large.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
flyCMH
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:29 am

Well, the little town of Gypsum, Colorado has a population of 3,654 people however they see several 757-200s on a daily basis. Gypsum is home to Eagle County Airport, a wildly popular gateway to Colorado's many ski resorts. During the winter travel season, especially during the weekend, a slew of 757s from many of the nation's hubs arrive at EGE full of vacationers. The scenery does look quite spectacular, and it must be a rush flying in and out of there on a 757.


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For a town of 3,654 people, that is quite an impressive amount of mainline service, though it is for good reason.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:39 am

Funny you mentioned EGE, that's the first place I thought of when I saw the subject line. Probably the most mainline service per capita! Another is KOA, which gets UA and AA widebodies.

It is indeed a rush flying in and out of EGE. I have done it lots of times on both 757s and 146s to/from LGA, DFW, and DEN. On approach, there is beautiful mountain scenery, including the ski runs at Vail and then Beaver Creek on the left side. I love walking out the door and across the tarmac in the crisp mountain air. On takeoff, they usually run up the engines with the brakes still set, then let go. After a quick takeoff run, they make a sharp turn to avoid the mountain straight ahead.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
electraBob
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:43 am

NW flies the DC-9 between Detroit and Traverse City (pop. approx. 17,000)--of course TVC is a year-round resort destination.
Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.....
 
flyCMH
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:49 am

That description of EGE sounds absolutely incredible. If I ever need to go to Colorado, I know which airport I'll be flying into.

[Edited 2003-12-14 19:49:55]
 
SouthwestMDW
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:59 am

Moline, Illinois (Quad Cities International Airport- MLI) gets mainline for FL (AirTran).
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:02 am

Delta's unexpected cities...these are mainline/both mainline and connection:
Melborne, FL (kind of)
Ft. Walton Beach (kind of)
Birmingham
Huntsville
Columbia, SC
Grand Rapids
Dayton (kind of)
Jackson, MS
Monroe, LA
Omaha
Kailspell
Missula
Great Falls
Bozeman
Pasco (they fly to ATL via SLC, OKC, TUL!)
Palm Springs (?)
an interesting note is that they DON'T fly mainline to Reno anymore!
it says Nassau is no longer mainline.... can anyone confirm?
can anyone confirm DL service (not worldwide partners) to the following Columbian cities:
Barranquilla
Cartengena
Medellin
Pereria
Cali
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
IflyORL
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:19 am

Daytona Beach is also served by mainline Delta, they fly MD-88's I think they are the only Mainline servies there.
 
flyCMH
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:24 am

I'd consider most of those Delta cities listed to be quite large. Dayton, Birmingham, Omaha, and Grand Rapids all have a metropolitan population of over 1 million people. All four of those cities also receive mainline service from airlines other than Delta.
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:30 am

DAB is still mainline sadly due to the funeral trade. The RJ doesn't have the cargo capacity for human remains.

 
ssides
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:30 am

In Texas, WN serves LBB, MAF, AMA, CRP, and HRL; the last two may not be all that small, but WN is the only mainline they get. AA serves MFE, with 4 MD80s per day as well.

Don't forget AA's mainline to XNA. I'm not sure if ICT gets mainline service anymore. I also think that RST, still gets a few MD80s or F100s due to the Mayo Clinic being there.


[Edited 2003-12-14 20:32:54]
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
copaair737
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:43 am

BIL gets NW and UA mainline.
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
727LOVER
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:48 am

DAB is still mainline sadly due to the funeral trade.

EXPLANATION PLEASE.  Confused

Love Trumps Hate
 
MAH4546
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:52 am

can anyone confirm DL service (not worldwide partners) to the following Columbian cities:
Barranquilla
Cartengena
Medellin
Pereria
Cali


All those cities are served via codeshare with Avianca via Miami; Medellin is also served via codeshare from JFK as well.

it says Nassau is no longer mainline.... can anyone confirm?

Two daily 757s to Atlanta and a daily 738 to CVG. They also fly three daily RJs to MCO and a SaSu RJ to CVG.

Kailspell
Missula
Great Falls
Bozeman
Pasco (they fly to ATL via SLC, OKC, TUL!)


Mainline no more at those cities starting soon (I think sometime in January).
a.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:00 am

DAB is still mainline sadly due to the funeral trade.

EXPLANATION PLEASE.


Man, could you get any more obnoxious?

I'll take a stab at this. Lots of retirees down in DAB, most of which migrated from northern states. These guys eventually die (amazing isn't it?) and probably need to be buried up north, where they came from. It's a sad but true fact of life.

The CRJ's small cargo hold makes carrying a body impossible; therefore the much larger MD-88 is the only choice.

I thought it was obvious.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
MIA777
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:06 am

I'm not sure how that was obnoxious...I was left wondering the same thing with that reply which was vague and incomplete however thank you for filling us in. Interesting...
MIA777
 
zrs70
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:25 am

Helena, MT
Portland, ME
Burlington, VT
Eugene, OR
17 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2016
 
ORD747CLE
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:37 am

United serves GRR (Grand Rapids) with multiple daily services with 773/5 equipment.

Ord747Cle
 
flyboy80
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:45 am

Zrs70:

Sadly, this time last year Eugene, OR (Here) lost its 737s, and Airbuses to SFO! up until sept 11th they had 5 mainline to SFO a day, and 2 to DEN.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:59 am

Heh... at the time I opened this message, I have on the top of a stack of reference material, a list of the metro areas in our game sorted by MSA population. Of course, the bottom of the list is places like Enid, OK (57,000), Casper, WY (63k) and Pocatello, ID (73k). But we are going to be going back through and adding places like the ones that were mentioned above... Eagle, Jackson Hole, etc. for exactly the reasons mentioned. O&D traffic is not exactly proportional to population.

In our game, we have the same passenger breakdowns as the real world. The first being what they all "VFR". This is not the aviation world's "visual flight rules" but rather "visiting friends and relatives". THAT is proportional to population for obvious reasons. The other categories are business, leisure and institutional. The latter reflects things like capitals and colleges. A town with a university or a capital city will get more traffic than a town of the same size population without those factors. Of course, all of those categories have their high and low weeks depending on what we are talking about. (The different types actually even have different times of the day that they prefer/need to travel... now THAT is a pain to statistically for an airline simulation!)

Anyway, the point being... it would surprise you as to the vast disparity between city size and passenger traffic at times.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
Airbust
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:03 am

NW serving GFK w/DC-9s, (population maybe 50K)
Don't forget DL mainline service to LEX, GSP, SAV...
 
5280AGL
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service

Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:08 am

Some of the cities listed (Birmingham, Omaha, Grand Rapids, and Dayton specifically) have close to or over a 1 million population, which are not small cities by any stretch of the imagination.

Here are cities that I would consider *small* that receive mainline service (some may have lost it by now):

Appleton, WI (Midwest)
LaCrosse, WI (NWA)
Rochester, MN (NWA, AA)
Cedar Rapids, IA (NWA, AA, UAL)
Duluth, MN (NWA)
Sioux Falls, SD (NWA)
Rapid City, SD (NWA)
Fargo, ND (NWA)
Grand Forks, ND (NWA)
Bismarck, ND (NWA)
Minot, ND (NWA)
Fayetteville, AR (AA)
Springfield, MO (AA)
Bloomington, IL (FL)
Traverse City, MI (NWA)
Saginaw, MI (NWA)
Kalamazoo, MI (NWA)
Great Falls, MT (NWA, DL?)
Eagle, CO (UAL, AA, DL, CO, NWA)
Burlington, VT (JBU)

I am sure there are many more...
 
mopac
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:12 am

In Texas, WN serves LBB, MAF, AMA, CRP, and HRL; the last two may not be all that small, but WN is the only mainline they get.

CRP is smallish (350,000 appx) but does indeed get CO mainline along with WN, currently just one CO 735 in the middle of 8 ERJs, but it seems that in the spring and summer they often put in more 737s in place of RJs.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:18 am

Omaha is small? What a riot! Omaha is actually 64th on the MSA population list. Also, with all our Fortune 500 companies, we have a lot more air travel per capita than most places! We have 22 gates at Eppley... and we actually park about 25 a/c here overnight... most of which are 73s. We have direct service to:

MSP, DTW, MEM, ORD, DEN, IAH, STL, MDW, DFW, EWR, DCA, SNA, SLC, ATL, PHX, MKE, and likely a few others. Oh yeah... we DO get one prop... a B1900D from MCI. Everything else is RJs, 73s and some DC9s here and there (When is NWA going to get rid of those -9s?) Hell, UA was using 75s here for a while!

People are so silly....
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:58 am

AA seasonal to GUC, and I thought UA's service to EGE was all United Express from DEN.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
B4REAL
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:07 am

The best example, in my opinion, of this answers to this question are the EAS (Essential Air Service) cities served by Alaska airlines. The range requirements make it not a good candidate for regional jets, but

Cities in AK served w/ mainline aircraft:

Adak
Kodiak
Dutch Harbor
Bethel
King Salmon
Dillingham
Nome
Kotzebue
Barrow
Cordova
Yakutat
Glacier Bay/Gustavus
Wrangell

I don't know population of these cities, but Alaska as a state only has 643,786 residents as of July 2002!

Prudhoe Baymap: http://www.alaskaair.com/images/asqxroutemap.jpg
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
ramerinianair
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:11 am

In general the Airports that WN services are the alternate airports because they cost less to service. WN services ISP on Long Island instead of LGA or JFK. DL, AA, CO and UsAir service the airport with service to their closest hubs with RJ's and UsAir uses Dash-8 equipment. WN services ISP with N/S service to FLL, PBI, TPA, CO / KMCO), USA - Florida">MCO, BNA, BWI, MDW and maybe another one or two. All their service is in 737 A/C so, all their service is mainline.
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
BGR1962
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:44 am

"DAB is still mainline sadly do to the funeral trade"

Sorry guys but as a funeral director I can tell you that no airline flies anyplace because of Human Remains (HR) transportation. Their charges aren't high enough to justify it. As an example MCO to PWM (which is the only airport in Maine currently handling HR) is around $280.00 on DL and most airlines really don't care how far someone has to be transported to or from an airport. The airlines are very accommodating to the funeral trade but not to that degree.
 
KYIPpilot
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:09 am

What about Hayden, CO? Or is that the one mentioned above? I remember flying into there on I think a NW 757 to go to Steamboat Springs.
"It starts when you're always afraid; You step out of line, the man come and take you away" -Buffalo Springfield
 
copaair737
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:31 pm

JAC gets AA, NW, UA, CO and DL mainline from DEN, ORD, DFW, SLC, ATL, MSP, EWR, and IAH.
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
serge
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:37 pm

BIL gets NW and UA mainline.

Don't forget DL with MD-90s and sometimes 738s...
 
jeffrey1970
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:45 pm

I believe Delta sometimes uses there MD-88's (I think) to Tallahassee.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:57 pm

Well, despite flairport's putting CAE on a list of "unexpected" cities, I'd argue the exact opposite and question why we don't get more mainline service. We've got a rather large Army base, Fort Jackson, that's home to several professional schools, including the NCO School and the Chaplain School; the National Advocacy Center where all DOJ employees must receive some training; the University of South Carolina, with about 25,000 students and 2,000 faculty; and a population of about 600k, it's a wonder that at the very least, US doesn't mainline us along with DL.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Guest

RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service

Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:03 pm

About the only mainline anything that flies into DAY is Delta with 757 and an MD80. AA sometimes runs a Fokker 100 in there but those are fast being replaced with CRJs. Useless Airways used to run a 737-200 in here but not anymore. It is almost all RJs and the odd turboprop.

Freight is another story though
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Mon Dec 15, 2003 11:56 pm

"About the only mainline anything that flies into DAY is Delta with 757 and an MD80"

You see... now THAT is odd. Dayton is the #51 MSA in the country... ahead of places like Fresno, Tulsa, Omaha, Albuquerque... why don't they get more mainline service? I would expect part of it is:

1) a demand for high frequency
2) the proximity of hubs which makes larger aircraft less efficient

As I mentioned previously... there is far more to this equation than MSA population.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
UN_B732
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:05 am

Burlington gets jetBlue A320s.
US Airways 737s and United Airbuses.
But much less mainline than their used to be  Sad
-UN
What now?
 
flyCMH
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:07 am

Currently, the following airlines offer mainline service into DAY:

Delta Air Lines: 7 mainline flights (6 MD-88s, 1 757-200)

AirTran Airways: 6 mainline flights (as of Feb. 11, all 717s)

American Airlines: 2 mainline flights (2 MD-80s)

United Airlines: 2 mainline flights (1 737-500, 1 737-300)

So Dayton has 17 mainline departures on a daily basis. Total, DAY sees close to 90 commercial departures a day.
 
zrb2
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:08 am

Last I checked Syracuse,NY still got mainline Delta MD-80's while the larger airports down the road at ROC and BUF were transitioned to all CRJ's (with more frequencies).
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:14 am

**NW flies the DC-9 between Detroit and Traverse City (pop. approx. 17,000)--of course TVC is a year-round resort destination.**

Also for a similar reason for why someone said the MD-80s still flying to DAB from Delta. Although I think caskets are made up in Traverse City and they ship them down to Detroit.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:58 am

Fort Walton Beach, Florida (VPS) is a relatively small market and they get mainline service from both NW and DL. NW brings in 3 DC-9's from MEM and DL brings in 3 MD88's (DL also has ATR's and RJ's at VPS). Starting in February, DL will be adding a 4th daily MD88.

It's kind of funny that DL has multiple MD88's into a place like VPS, yet a far larger market like BUF only gets RJ's from DL.
 
ssides
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:04 am

It's kind of funny that DL has multiple MD88's into a place like VPS, yet a far larger market like BUF only gets RJ's from DL.

This fact probably owes more to (1) DL's prominence in the Southeast and (2) WN's presence at BUF. If a city the size of BUF were in the south, I guarantee that DL would be serving it mainline.

What other mainline service does BUF get?
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
zrb2
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:11 am

What other mainline service does BUF get?

They get some larger jets from:
US Airways
Continental
Northwest
Southwest
JetBlue
AirTran
United

They get regional jets from:
Delta-Comair
American Eagle
US Express
CO Express
United Express


Once Airtran begins filling up 717s to Atlanta, I think Delta counters with less expensive CRJ's and more frequencies to compete.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:01 am

Another misconception that is rearing its head here now is that "if city X and city Y are equal size, an airline should serve them equally." That is not true. First off, filter out the population and go with actual O&D figures. These are the people that WANT to travel for whatever reason. That is going to be the total figure for the whole airport - however it is divided up amongst the airlines.

The statement above about DL not doing much at BUF because of SWA's presence is very accurate. The question has to be raised is not necessarily "how many passengers are underserved" but rather "of the passengers that are underserved, how many can we expect to secure for OUR airline?" Those are not always the same thing.

The statement about Buffalo not being in the south is very true as well. Of the pax with an O&D of Buffalo, how many are going to destinations in the NE or Midwest? For them, it would be silly to go through ATL... if not monetarily, then by time... or even psychologically. Many passengers are going to THINK it is silly to go to IAD via ATL before they even look at the prices and schedules.

The question for an airline is, then. "What are the top markets for a certain city" and "how does our service to those markets compare with other carriers serving that same city?" For hubs, this is an obvious issue. No one is going to want to penetrate CVG since Delta will fly to practically anywhere from CVG. The O&D traffic from CVG alone is just not worth the effort for anyone to go head to head with Delta.

For feeders, the choice is a little less obvious. For some place like Omaha, we have a fairly even distribution of all the majors. It used to be ted by UAL via ORD or DEN but now SWA has taken over as #1... but not by much. We have all the big guns except USAir (not. incl. a token B1900D for MCI). However, there are other cities that are smack in the middle of a territory served by one airline. Remember, the farther you have to travel to get to a hub city, the more likely you will have to do some serious back-tracking to get to where you are really going. Delta owns the southeast, for example. No one is going to compete with United for the small cities around Denver. It is just simply more economical to go to your nearest hub and then from there.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
azo
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:06 am

Kalamazoo/Battle Creek International Airport gets some mainline service (two or three) from NW (DC-9-30 or 50) about 3/4 of the year. Right now we don't have any into AZO, but there are three DC-9s on the schedule for the mid-late winter. City of Kalamazoo has a population of about 80,000 and the MSA is around 453,000 people, including Van Buren, Kalamazoo, and Calhoun counties.
Kalamazoozoozoozoozoozoozoo
 
ssides
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:08 am

Right on, InnocuousFox.

For example, if you think population is the only figure that should justify air traffic, look at these MSAs that are equal in size to HNL:

BHM
FAT
ALB
TUS
TUL

By this logic, all these cities should be getting AA 763s!!!
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
ssides
Posts: 3248
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:11 am

To aid in the discussion, here is the 2000 Census ranking of MSAs in the US, ranked largest to smallest:

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab03.pdf

Does Enid, OK get any service?
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
Guest

RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service

Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:13 am

That means considering Air Tran mainline.  Smile

personally I have never seen those United 737s or those AA MD-80s in DAY. I have seen AA F-100s, CRJs and ERJs and United Express CRJs
 
ssides
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:18 am

AirTran, ATA, Southwest, and Spirit should be considered "mainline" because they are able to fill large jets on a regularly scheduled basis. This is a big accomplishment.

Charter carriers like Sun Country and Casino Express, however, should not (but I've heard that Sun Country offers scheduled service -- is this true?)
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
funflyer
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RE: Do Any Small Cities Still Get Mainline Service?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:24 am

MHT Manchester, NH



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