BA
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BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:43 am

What do you all think will happen to British Airways' operations in London Gatwick (LGW) after London Heathrow's Terminal 5 open.

We've all heard many times in the past that BA would love to move its entire operation to LHR.

It's amazing to see how much BA has cut LGW services. Just a few years ago, I flew LGW-ZRH, a major route and now it's gone. Athens moved to LHR, and I think Zagreb moved to LHR among many other routes.

BA moving its entire operation to LHR is not feasible for the following two major reasons:

1) LHR is heavily slot restricted and there is no way BA would be able to get enough slots to move its entire LGW operation.

2) The Bermuda II agreement doesn't let them move their US flights from LGW to LHR.

That being said, T5 will give BA new opportunities. Now, T5 probably won't get rid of the Bermuda II agreement, but BA has a lot more than just US flights from LGW. They have a lot of European flights and a few to North Africa.

What do you think BA's presence in LGW will be like after T5 opens after all the reduction of flights we've already seen?

If the 3rd runway at LHR is built, that will even further expand capacity at LHR.

If someone could list all of BA's destinations from LGW, I'd greatly appreciate it. I remember they used to have flights to Rio de Janerio, but it is no more.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
747firstclass
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:54 am

For starters there will have to be a openskies with the US. BA is expressly forbidden to operate from LGW to ATL,DFW,IAH as long as a US carrier is not allowed to fly to those cities from LHR. So if BA moves those routes that means CO and DL will operate from LHR.
 
BA
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:09 pm

747firstclass,

Yes I know this. I mentioned the Bermuda II agreement in my post.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
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Crosswind
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:30 pm

No major changes - it is runway capacity, which is the biggest factor in restricting LHR ops for every airline. Increased terminal capacity will allow a small number of extra flights off-peak i.e. very early morning long-haul inbound arrivals etc, but availability of runway slots at peak times is zero.

BA for the foreseeable future will have to maintain a dual-hub network.

What recent changes have sought to do is maximise revenue by:

• Reducing duplication of routes at both LHR/LGW. Costs are increased by running some flights on a route from Heathrow and some from Gatwick. Wherever possible on all but the busiest routes there is only service from LHR or LGW.

• Placing the highest-yield traffic at Heathrow, while bearing in mind that many routes must remain paired at the same airport for high-yield feed.

For example BA now has to run an Houston-Heathrow one-stop service to connect with the Lagos flight which was moved from Gatwick. For many years the Lagos and Houston flights remained at Gatwick because of their co-dependence even though Lagos is more of a Heathrow portfolio route, beause BA cannot operate non-stop IAH-LHR flights.

BA are trying to ensure that LHR and LGW co-exist rather than compete with one another, so a most connections will only be able to be made at Heathrow or Gatwick, not both.

Gatwick in the future will become focused on both short and long-haul "leisure" destinations, together with busier point-to-point short-haul services where Gatwick originating flights can exist in their own right without having a negative effect on Heathrow traffic/yields.

This is borne out by the current Gatwick long-haul programme consisting mainly of flights the USA and Caribbean, and the new/increased Gatwick short-haul flights for 2003 were Rome, Verona, Athens, Pristina, Genoa and Venice. For 2004 new LGW destinations include Algiers, Dubrovnik, Ibiza, Bari, Cagliari and Catania. The large GB Airways operation at LGW serving mainly holiday destinations supports this policy and the future role for Gatwick.

Of course the success of all this rides on British Airways making their short-haul ops at both LHR and LGW profitable. Not an easy task given the competition and constraints they face...

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Photo © Colin K. Work


Regards
CROSSWIND

[Edited 2003-12-16 04:43:42]
 
Sydscott
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:36 pm


I thought that T5 was going to be used to house all of BA's Oneworld Partners as well???

Also who is going to use BA's old terminal at LHR???
 
MAS777
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:32 pm

Perhaps T4 may give way to KLM, AF, AZ, MH, KQ, CZ, SU, KE, AM and as a long shot - NW, CO and DL new services out of LHR - wouldn't that be nice?
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:24 pm

Until Bermuda II is sorted out BA will remain at LGW, and even if BA was allowed to move it's non-LHR US flights from LGW to LHR, it would need a presence at LGW for the lesiure and low yield tourist market (bucket and spade brigade) to the carribean. Some of the smaller European destinations might remain at Gatwick aswell. But we'll have to see when T5 opens at LHR or a new runway is built to see whether BA wants to transfer all operations to LHR.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
planesarecool
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:44 am

At present BA operate the following from LGW (forgive me if I miss a few - this is all from memory):

Barbados
Bermuda
St. Lucia
Antigua
Grenada
Tobago
Orlando
Tampa
Dallas Ft Worth
Houston
Atlanta
Kingston
Manchester
Newcastle
Glasgow
Aberdeen
Edinburgh
Inverness
Isle of Man
Amsterdam
Geneva
Rome
Venice
Pristina
Pisa
Bordeaux
Marseille
Jersey
Bologna
Hanover
Toulouse
Turin
Milan
Nice
Madrid
Verona
Barcelona
Genoa
Dublin
Naples
Frankfurt
Munich
Luxembourg
Bilbao
Krakow

And then GB Airways operate to:

Gibraltar
Malaga
Alicante
Almeria
Tenerife
Arrecife
Fuerteventura
Las Palmas
Tenerife Norte
Montpellier
Nantes
Valencia
Paphos
Marrakech
Agadir
Murcia
Funchal
Faro
Porto
Malta
Seville
Toulon

And seasonal charters operate to:

Chambery
Innsbruck
Mahon
Gerona
Ibiza

And the destinations which have been stopped or moved from Gatwick (there are probably tons missing from here  Big grin)

Miami
Rio de Janeiro
Sao Paulo
New York
Dammam
Cancun
San Diego
Phoenix
Denver
Bogota
Caracas
Nassau
Grand Cayman
Zurich
Athens
Zagreb
Riga
Guernsey
Newquay
Plymouth
Bristol
Abuja
Lagos
Buenos Aires
Nairobi
Seychelles
Mauritius
Entebbe
Lilongwe
Charlotte
Baltimore
Accra
Dar es Salaam
Harare
Santiago
Port Harcourt
Montego Bay
Havana
Tripoli
Stockholm
St. Petersburg
Bucharest
Lyon
Dhahran
Kiev
Belgrade

-Stephen
 
planesarecool
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:52 am

Forgot a few from the last list:

Skopje
Warsaw
Gdansk
Sofia
Lusaka
Gothenburg
Helsinki
Bremen
Ronchi

There's probably more too  Big grin

-Stephen
 
BA
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:29 am

Thanks for the replies.

Has anyone heard any new progress on the proposed 3rd runway in LHR?

Wasn't their also talk about a 2nd runway in LGW? I know LGW actually has 2 runways, but 1 of them is used as a taxiway.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:35 am

LGW cannot be touched, so far as runways are concerned, until 2019.. else be in violation to a governmental mandate.

Its current two runways are too close in proximity to be used in tandem, however one can be used should the other shut down.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
BA
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:38 am

Its current two runways are too close in proximity to be used in tandem, however one can be used should the other shut down.

Yeah, a few years ago the main runway was closed down for renovation and they used the 2nd one instead.

I didn't know about the governmental mandate...interesting.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
ssides
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:43 am

According to BAA's Gatwick site, here are all BA destinations from LGW:

Aberdeen
Alicante
Amsterdam
Antigua
Atlanta
Barcelona
Bermuda
Bologna
Bordeaux
Bridgetown
Chambery
Dallas Fort Worth
Dublin
Edinburgh
Frankfurt
Geneva
Genoa
Glasgow
Grenada
Grenoble
Hanover
Houston
Innsbruck
Jersey
Kingston
Krakow
Luxenburg
Madrid
Manchester
Marseille
Munich
Murcia
Naples
Newcastle
Nice
Orlando
Paris (Charles De Gaulle)
Pisa
Pristina
Rome
St Lucia
Tabago
Tampa
Toulouse
Turin
Venice
Verona
Zurich

"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:06 am

LGW cannot have a new runway until 2019 due to a agreement made by the government, but that could all change if LHR doesn't meet the noise and pollution regulations which it will need to pass in order to get clearance for a new runway there. LGW is the alternatve for the government if LHR fails to meet the required expectations, i hope this isn't the case because Heathrow badly needs more capacity.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
BA
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:29 am

Ssides,

Thanks for that list, although it is out of date. BA moved all its ZRH flights to LHR. No more LGW-ZRH flights.

Arsenal@LHR,

Yeah, LHR definately does need more capacity, both in terminal space and runways...

It's good that Terminal 5 is being built, but that 3rd runway is desperately needed...

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:36 am

BA

It was a relief when T5 was given the go-ahead, but even that won't be enough. It needs to be complimented with a new runway or even a 6th terminal which was mentioned in today's government report.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
BA
Topic Author
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:39 am

I agree Arsenal.

A 6th terminal would really be great for LHR.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
VS340
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:27 am

this may be a stupid question but why is is Heathrow so preferred over Gatwick?
 
ssides
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:34 am

this may be a stupid question but why is is Heathrow so preferred over Gatwick?

Proximity. LHR is much closer to Central London and has more convenient and cheaper ground transportation options. A taxi from LHR to Central London is cheaper than from LGW, and it is governed by London rules since LHR lies within Metropolitan London's jurisdiction. LGW is outside this jurisdiction and therefore taxi fares are much more expensive. In addition, LHR is served by the London Underground, which is a great cheap option for many travelers. Plus, the Heathrow Express is just a 15-minute ride to Central London.

That being said, connections to Gatwick are improving, but it is so far south of London it is hard to get there quickly from any Central London location. The Gatwick Express is just 30 minutes from Victoria, and Thameslink train service take about an hour. Depending on where you are, these train services can make the trip to LGW about the same duration as the trip to LHR.

Also, many people (and airlines) prefer to fly into LHR for connections. LGW, with its single runway, simply can't serve the number of European and other destinations that LHR can. This, plus LHR's locality, have made the competition for LHR slots the fiercest battle in aviation.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
Southamerica
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:24 pm


I believe the distribution of the fleet would change too. Currently, BA operates all their A320 and A319 fleet based in Heathrow and most of the 737 family serves only Gatwick.

With the obvious pure oxygen breath that Heathrow will receive from T5, I imagine BA would have to pass more Gatwick aircraft to Heathrow too.

Regards,

Federico in SOUTHAMERICA
 
LHR001
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:34 pm

London Gatwick will continue to grow. Even with the absence of British Airways and its transferred flights. Sir Richard Branson is sure to take advantage of the situation on behalf of Virgin Atlantic Airways. Furthermore witht the ongoing British Airways monopoly of Heathrow will lead to more of the low cost airlines and several other airlines to choose Gatwick over Luton or Stansted.

Possible growth at Gatwick can be found by Continental Airlines, Delta Airlines, Northwest Airlines, and US Airways! On the European sector one could look for Easy Jet, Ryan Air, and Jet2 to get into the swing and action that Birtish Airways would have left over at London/Gatwick. Dont forget that Gatwick and the British Airways termanil are a very modern facility and affords shopping, amenities, and location. While Heathrow may be local to downtown London. Gatwick has points that are much nearer!



LHR001
 
bobrayner
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:30 am

this may be a stupid question but why is is Heathrow so preferred over Gatwick?

This hub is driven by a positive feedback loop. The more destinations it serves, the more airlines want to add extra flights of their own, which means even more destinations, which makes it even more tempting to airlines, therefore...
Cunning linguist
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:43 am

Heathrow is a high-yield airport, that's the primary why airlines prefer it to LGW. But the other reasons given are also major factors.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
TLHFLA
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:53 am

AA is currently the only US airline which has operations at both LHR and LGW (and I bet they would love to move their DFW-LON and RDU-LON flights to LHR!). Have any other US airlines served LHR and LGW concurrently (Pan Am and TWA come to mind as the only possibilities)?
Bill in ATL
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:58 am

BA will probably maintain some sort of LGW operation after T5 opens. The issue is whether it reamins a mainline operation, i.e. directly BA operated or passed on to CitiExpress. With GB Airways operating virtually all Western Mediterranean routes it's not unrealistic that it could start picking up more French destinations, plus some in Italy if they became unprofitable for BA (Venice, Genoa, Bologna - all served by LCCs).

Obviously the Bermuda II flights stand as well for now.

The Caribbean is different though. Nassau and Grand Cayman switched to LHR a couple of years ago. Barbados and Bermuda, where 3-class operations are viable are candidates for transfer to LHR, but what about Orlando, Tampa, Antigua, Tobago, St. Lucia, Grenada and Kingston - hardly the sort of premium routes BA would want to take up valuable slots at LHR.

BA at LGW is likely to become more specialised - at the end of the day it can't switch everything to LHR and seems to have a dislike bordering on hate for STN!
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
LGW
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:56 pm

"LHR is served by the London Underground, which is a great cheap option for many travelers. Plus, the Heathrow Express is just a 15-minute ride to Central London."


The Tube takes foir ever to get into Central London and the Heathrow Express goes to Paddington, not the greatest London Terminal and also costs a bomb.



"That being said, connections to Gatwick are improving, but it is so far south of London it is hard to get there quickly from any Central London location."


So far south? Hum, with very frequent "normal" trains going from LGW to Victoria and London Bridge Gatwick is within easy access of London. Journey time between LGW and London is under 30 minutes and there is a train every 5-10 minutes. This coupled with LGW being an easier terminal to navigate than LHR all makes LGW a good option.

Main problem LGW suffers from is people who think that becasue LHR is bigger and better because it has more/interesting airlines that fly there that it makes LHR somehow much better in all ways, this is not true.

Of course you may think I am biased with a username such as mine but, I have flown into both LGW and LHR and I have lived in both London and near LGW. I have nothing against LHR just saying LGW is not the poor relation

Ben Pritchard
 
A340600
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:08 pm

Many of you who have readmy profile will know that LGW is my home and favourite airport, but this is not a biased opinion.

Many of my relatives who fly regularly often prefer to fly out of Gatwick. This is because, as Ben stated the terminals are mucheasier to navigte an its much less busy.

Ok, so South Terminal can get a bit busy at peak times like now, what with the ski season but nowhere near how busy Heathrow gets.

To answer your question BA flies out of NORTH which is reasonably new, very spacious and clean. BA will stay at LGW, however i think a lot of the ops. will move to LHR.

With Stansted rapidly expanding it remains uncertin about the futre of LGW.

However think that LGW wll continue to expand and the charters will continue to operate out of LGW. And when 2019 comes i'm pretty sure that there could be another runway being built improving traffic. Maybe 2007-20015 (or around about hat time) will be a bit of a low at LGW but im sure that they will come back if this does happen,

Sam)
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
planesarecool
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RE: BA LGW After LHR T5 Opens

Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:25 pm

A good advantage that Gatwick has is over ground train connections. I often get the train in to Gatwick when i visit and its very convenient (even if trains only go into my local station twice an hour). Gatwick also has a direct train service to London Victoria with Gatwick Express which takes little more than 15 minutes. Also you can get to Gatwick from Brighton, Portsmouth Harbour and Bognor Regis without changing trains (Although sometimes the Portsmouth Harbour/Bognor Regis train splits at Barnham), and all the stations in between. If i was flying somewhere from Heathrow and i was forced to take the train, my route would be (I did this a few weeks ago) South West Trains from Haslemere to Waterloo, tube from Waterloo to Embankment on the Bakerloo line, then Embankment to Hammersmith on the District line, then Hammersmith to Heathrow on the Piccadilly line. Now the tube journey is about an hour on its own on a day when they are running smoothly. We all know what the underground's like. Now, to Gatwick i go down to Billingshurst station which is also a bit nearer than Haslemere get on the train and after 4 stops (Christ's Hospital, Horsham, Crawley, Three Bridges) I'm there. It only takes 25 minutes on the train.

Ok that's just from my village which is very small, but the same occurs from all over south east England. If you live south of London, Gatwick is a lot easier to get to.

Gatwick has lost a lot of flights from a lot of airlines post 9/11. Not just BA:

Virgin Atlantic: Boston, Toronto, Newark, Miami, Athens
Canada 3000: All flights
Braathens: Oslo
Continental: 1x Newark, Cleveland
American: St. Louis
Delta: Los Angeles
Iberia: Alicante
Northwest: Seattle and Los Angeles from the MSP and DTW flights
Finnair: All flights

There's more, but just look what we've got since then:

Emirates: 1x daily to 3x daily from Dubai
Virgin Atlantic: More caribbean flights, plus Port Harcourt flight
Easyjet: All current flights
Zoom: Summer flights (are they still flying)
Dba: 3 or 4 times daily flights to Berlin
Air Southwest: Picking up what BA left
Astraeus: All current flights
FlyJet: All current flights
Air Luxor: Daily (i think) flights to/from Lisbon
TAP Air Portugal: More flights to Lisbon and Oporto
Adria Airlines: Once daily to Ljubljana
US Airways: Extra Philadelphia flight (seasonal)
American: Extra Dallas Ft. Worth flight
Air Europa: 3x daily flights to Palma and Madrid
Aurigny: Picking up the lost BA Guernsey flight
Nationwide: 2 or 3 weekly flights to South Africa

and there's more!

LGW may have fallen apart after 9/11 but it's certainly picked itself up again. I'm sure we'd all prefer to see those 5 extra long haul Virgin flights as opposed to all the easyjet flights, but its better than nothing, which could have happened.

My wild idea of how LGW could expand was that they extended runway 08L to be the length of 08R/26L but going out of the airport. If they were landing from the west they land on 08L and if they were taking off to the west they'd depart on 26R. This way there doesn't need to be a taxiway going to the end of the runway, and they won't need to taxi on the runway to the end, therefore taking up less space. It wouldn't involve de-homing people as there is just a few huge fields there. I know it will never go ahead, but it's just my idea and I think it would work  Big thumbs up

-Stephen