Flying Belgian
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EK And The 727?

Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:58 pm

Hello,


I was looking into some old aviation pictures books, and I noticed an Emirates B727 in Hong-Kong Kai-Tak.
Was the 727 the very first aicraft AK used ?
When were they born ??
And what was their very first line ?

If they used the 727 to HKG, what was the routing like ?

Many thanks for your answers...
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
FlySSC
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:39 am

Emirates started operations with a fleet of B727-200 and A310-300.

The B727-200 were second-hand a/c bought from IBERIA.
I flew one of them in the early 90's (1992) on the route MLE-CMB-DXB


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emirates773
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:42 am

Emirates operated 3 Boeing 727 models between 1985 and the early 1990's

A6- EMA:
B727-2M7 - 1980
Hughes Airwest- Dubai Air Wing - Emirates- Qatar Airways - DHL (Active)

A6-EMB:
B727-264 - 1982
Mexicana (NTU)- Dubai Air Wing -Emirates- Qatar Airways- DHL (Stored)

A6-EMC:
B727-2K5 - 1979
Hapag Lloyd- Emirates- Pegasis Aviation- Aeromexpress (Active)

Hope this is of some use

Emirates773
 
9v-svc
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B727 Ex-EK's

Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:58 am

Iberia ? The 727s were not from Iberia .


Thanks for the info , Emirates773 .  Smile
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
airmale
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:24 am

Emirates started operations witha fleet of A300B4 and 737-300s leased from PIA.
.....up there with the best!
 
cloud4000
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:27 am

All I can say is wow. Look where they are now. From such humble beginning to one of the best airlines in the world. And their still growing like gangbusters. Defintely a good study on how an airline should operate.
Boston, USA
 
Vimanav
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:17 am

Defintely a good study on how an airline should operate.

Most definitely not !!!

EK's success is primarily due to a system of cross subsidies, underwritten costs and other unique fiscal benefits which stem from their position as national carrier of DXB. By the design of no less a group than the ruling family of DXB, EK is not an end in itself but a highly successful means to reach the ultimate end - which is to develop DXB as an international business capital and cross roads to the world.

Airlines would be better off not trying to emulate the EK model but trying to control their costs while offering customers value for money. Closed F/cl suites and stars in the cabin are all fine but let's wait and see how long the good times last.

Remember Pan Am? remember Swissair? Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
FlySSC
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:48 am

Sorry for the wrong "IBERIA" info folks... I had it from an EK Flight attendant on my flight MLE-CMB-DXB... 10 years ago...  Sad that's what he told me when I asked where was the plane coming from, as everything was written in English & Spanish (Salida/exit signs, "Fasten seat belts/abrochen cinturones" etc...)
It was probably A6-EMB from Mexicana...


Vimanav, you are absolutely right ! Good to see, at last, an objective statement about Emirates !

EK is, indeed, an excellent airline ! witch is easy when you have an endless backsupport of millions of $ of subsidies from DXB ruling family, no costs restrictions, obscure and unpublished results and accountancy...

I doubt they would be the same airline if they had to comply, like all its competitors, with the usual international trade rules
 
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:49 am

don't forget the rumours about free fuel for all EK DXB departing flights...
 
9v-svc
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EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:52 am

Quote : Emirates started operations witha fleet of A300B4 and 737-300s leased from PIA.



When did the A300-600R and A310-300 come in after the leased of PIA's planes?
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
B747-437B
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:24 pm

Defintely a good study on how an airline should operate.

Definitely a good study on how an airline with UNRESTRICTED RESOURCES should operate.  Smile

Nobody will ever emulate the Emirates model because nobody will ever have the laboratory conditions that Emirates benefited from.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
behramjee
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:44 pm

Mendis...I think that in many ways QATAR AIRWAYS is copying the EK model and has access to the same resources which EK do except that DOHAs airport and city arent as developed and known worldwide as DXB. However that will change within the next 5-8 years.
 
FlySSC
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:54 pm

Behramjee,

20 years ago, DXB was merely known like DOH is today...
EK is fully responsible for the developpement of DXB : That why it was created for !
 
emirates773
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:19 pm

9V-SVC

The A300-605R's arrived between 1989 - 1991 with 2 more,1 in 1993 and 1 in 1995. All have since left the fleet to operators like Tunis Air, Lufthansa, Onur Air.

The A310-304/308's arrived between 1987 and 1995. Most of these have since been sold on to Air Transat of Canada with a couple of others going to Royal Jordanian and Iran Air.

Emirates773
 
Flying Belgian
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:42 pm

Thanks for your infos on the EK 727.

Whatever your opinions are, it's amazing to notice the path they did in 10 years... Look at the 727 and the 345  Wow!

I'm also thankfull to EK as it gave jobs and the possibility to make many dreams come true for European FAs and pilots. Especially when you assume the current aviation situation in countries such as Belgium, Switzerland, France, Canada,...

Airlines such as Emirates allow us to say that an aviation myth still exists... Wherever the fundings come from. Just my opinion.


FB.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
SV777KiloAlpha
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:47 pm

Vimanav,

I don't agree with you at all.
EK has a sound business plan and it is working. Many other airlines in the world had deep pockets, even more than EK and did not grow and prospered as EK. Do you think that EK has more financial backup than AA, UA or even BA? If yes, then you have to do a better research next time. Many of EK new aircraft are bought throw loans from international Banks and NOT through the bank account of Al-Maktoom! Yes, the Al-Maktoom helped them in their beginnings but now they are standing on their own feet.
The whole business plan for DUBAI is the reason for EK continues growth. I visit DXB more than 6 times a year. I can see the changes from one visit to the other. In fact, if you don't plan ahead, you will not find reservation in your preferred hotel. (In Dubai, a new hotel opens every 4-6 months) The city is always full of visitors, both business and pleasure. And in all my trips I try to fly EK, and their aircraft are full most of the time.


On the other hand, the future of Qatar Airways has a big question mark. I personally don't see Doha competing with Dubai even after 10 years. The gap is too big. The people behind Dubai growth are more intellectual than the Qataris.


Flying Belgian
Airlines such as Emirates allow us to say that an aviation myth still exists... Wherever the fundings come from. Just my opinion.

Agree with you 100%.

 Big grin
HZ-AKA

PPL since 2006
 
B747-437B
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:08 pm

EK has a sound business plan and it is working.

Yeah, I heard that too from a friend who heard it from Santa Claus who heard it from the tooth fairy.

Do you think that EK has more financial backup than AA, UA or even BA?

Why yes, I do. EK has access to more financial backing than AA, UA and BA put together. Perhaps even squared.

I have nothing against Emirates. They have taken advantage of the situation they were placed into and have exceeded everyone's expectations today. However, to expect that they can or should be emulated is a pipe dream.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
SV777KiloAlpha
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:52 pm

B747-437B

It is really annoying to read a childish reply from time to time on this forum.
I don't bring false info to this forum Mr. 747! I wonder whither you really understand the meaning of a business plan or not? I read many case studies on airlines and EK is one of them and I have been following their plans since the started and know very well that the have a plan and it is working.

EK has access to more financial backing than AA, UA and BA put together. Perhaps even squared.

Go and read the financial statements of AA, UA, and EK first, then let Your tooth fairy confirm the "even squared"

Some people just can't be happy to see others be successful. Is it just jealousy or what?

 Big grin
HZ-AKA
PPL since 2006
 
B747-437B
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:59 pm

I wonder whither you really understand the meaning of a business plan or not? I read many case studies on airlines and EK is one of them

My apologies. I'll go read some case studies now and come back better informed. I will also try to learn what a business plan means. You appear to have done indepth research while I am simply motivated by jealousy in my childish bashing of Emirates. Every airline should try to be more like Emirates.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Vimanav
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:38 pm

Vimanav,

I don't agree with you at all.


Good start! after all that's what this forum is all about.

EK has a sound business plan and it is working

Not that I ever disputed it. It is infact quite easy to make a business plan around such unfathomable resources where you know that a even if you goof up you cannot sink (at least in the foreseeable future). Again like I mentioned earlier, EK is just a cog in the wheel that is DXB (a point which you agree to as well). For any country which has a single major city, to be really taken seriously, it's an unwritten rule that you must have an airline that is world class (even if you have to run it at ruinous losses). Hence for the DXB rulers, for DXB to be taken as the next international hub a la SIN, they must have a world class airline at ANY COST (which with their trench sized pockets is close to infinity). They choose city pairs, flying there with so much hype that they expect to automatically create a market on those routes. The only flaw of this philosophy is that DXB is geo-politcally handicapped. Irrespective of the vast square miles that they may reclaim and the trillions that they may invest in coverting wasteland to paradise, it is based in a potentially trouble prone region. Pretending as if there are planeloads of people dying to fly between DXB and AKL (14 flights) besides a host of other such vague routes is bull crap. If they fill in these planes.. its obviously at very low fares. An example is the recent open skies policy of India whereby EK has applied for almost 350 extra sections and upgrades for the period upto 29FEB04. They replaced some of the DEL services with a B777 and ended up flying them half empty... filling the other half at the piteous fare of INR 4500 one way to DXB!!! Look at their costs on the other hand. Suites in F/cl, state of the art IFE and the works, advertisement budgets practically unlimited, very highly paid staff.. hey come on... these things do not come at INR 4500 OW DEL/DXB - fare levels which are practically replicated on a host of other routes from the Indian Subcontinent and other parts of the world. Agreed they are higher priced than other Gulf carriers but for the kind of services that they offer they ought to be charging fares at least at par with the European carriers if not higher.

International aviation and airline business is not dependent on the business outlook of one country. It is based on a number of other socio-economic and political factors. EK has virtually established itself as the de facto national carrier of Pakistan and one of the largest international operators out of India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. This is primarily due to the inability of the national carriers of these countries (except Sri Lanka) to blossom to their fullest potential due to a multitude of factors. Every day that goes by, I see Indian aviation coming of age. The day this sector is deregulated and private Indian carriers allowed to fly internationally, I promise you an aviation revolution. This part of the world has much much more to offer in terms of natural wealth than DXB will ever have (despite the cosmetic surgery) and when the world discovers that... trust me, those 43 A380s of EK will fly at 20% SLF.

As for QR, I am reminded of a saying that "a squirrel should not try to shit like an elephant".

SV777KiloAlpha...

I really wish you'd study the airline business in little bit more detail. It'd be nice to know which are those airline business plans that you read. Trust me, this business is much much more than simply reading business plans.

Will the bitchy sarcasm ever end? your smart alec act is becoming too much to bear B747-437B.

Airmale...

"Eih bennek, eih blavek". If you pick thistles, expect prickles. (Tintin comic, 'King Ottokar's Sceptre')  Big grin

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
B747-437B
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:52 pm

*Standing Ovation For Vimanav*
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
SR 103
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:57 pm

your smart alec act is becoming too much to bear B747-437B.

As are your incessant posts about nothing, Airmale! Maybe you could do us all a favor and stop posting so much junk.

SR 103
 
B747-437B
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RE: EK And The 727?

Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:58 pm

*Standing Ovation For SR 103*
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
SV777KiloAlpha
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RE: EK And The 727?

Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:54 am

Vimanav,

I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post. We seem to agree now on several points. But I'm still convinced that EK now is not subsidized. It is a profitable airline. If as you said they have deep pockets, then why do they buy this new aircraft through loans from international banks (Not DXB banks) And just an info to those who don't know the history of UAE, Abu Dhabi is where the deep pockets not DXB. The only source of income to DXB is trade and tourism. The don't have oil at all! Therefore I don't think that the rulers of DXB are damn to spend all their money on EK.

Looking at the current low service standards of Air India, I don't see how deregulation well give berth to a high class airline that can compete or come close to EK.

Trust me, this business is much much more than simply reading business plans.

Thanks for the advise. I don't want to get involved in a debate over credentials.Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

 Big grin
HZ-AKA



PPL since 2006
 
Vimanav
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RE: EK And The 727?

Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:38 am

If as you said they have deep pockets, then why do they buy this new aircraft through loans from international banks (Not DXB banks)

As you state that you know what you are talking about, I am sure you are also aware that airlines the world over (except maybe SV and a couple of the oil Sultans for their personal fleet) do not go across to the manufacturers with a blank cheque book, write out the amount and pick up a plane. For that matter, you - based in the Middle East - would be aware of the fabulous deals available on cars where you pay the easiest imaginable instalments, get free insurance for 3 years besides 1000 litres of free fuel - all if you took the car on a loan. Being highly capital intensive, it just makes it all the more sensible to take up such loan options on aircraft rather than dishing out cash up front. And of course keeping the fiscal credibility of the promoters and backers of EK in mind, international banks would be only too glad to offer them excellent terms for such airplane loans.

And just an info to those who don't know the history of UAE, Abu Dhabi is where the deep pockets not DXB. The only source of income to DXB is trade and tourism. The don't have oil at all!

Precisely the reason for their desperation to position DXB as an international capital and business hub. If your very survival depended on promoting your country and city as a tourism hub you'd use every means possible to achieve your end, even if it means creating and supporting a white elephant of a national carrier.

Looking at the current low service standards of Air India, I don't see how deregulation well give berth to a high class airline that can compete or come close to EK.

Look beyond my friend, raise your perspective and try to see beyond what is merely visible to the eye. I shall say no further, but your words above could be a good epitaph for a skeptic Big thumbs up

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
SV777KiloAlpha
Posts: 250
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RE: EK And The 727?

Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:15 am

Vimanav,

Again you did not do you research very well.

1. SV took a huge loan from Citibank and Chase in order to secure the deal in the 1990s.

2. Installments are not as easy as you wrote. What you wrote is just providing wrong information to the reader. 1000Litters!! What a joke! I hope you are not of those people who think that we all in the Gulf have oil wells and drive RRs

3. I know that putting cash up front for an aircraft is not economical at all. But you have been saying in all you posts that EK is backed by deep pockets, then if this is true, why go take loans from international banks?? Why not take the loans form the local banks which the rulers of DXB own?

4. Regarding Indian carriers, well just one question. How long did AI exist? Did they improve their service during all those years? As a national carrier for the second largest nation in the world (in terms of population) I would imagine that they would at least be as good as neighboring countries' airlines. Hence, I do not have a valid reason or motive to believe that other Indian carriers will be better, let alone compete with EK. If you have, please provide me with one.

I believe what my eyes see.

 Big grin
HZ-AKA
PPL since 2006
 
Vimanav
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RE: EK And The 727?

Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:38 am

SV777KiloAlpha

1. Looks like I did get your goat. My comment about SV was just to needle ewe and ram down a point. But no disputing the fact that SV looks rather sheepish with this massive fleet of airplanes all dressed up and nowhere to go!!  Acting devilish  Acting devilish

2. Installments are not as easy as you wrote. What you wrote is just providing wrong information to the reader. 1000Litters!! What a joke! I hope you are not of those people who think that we all in the Gulf have oil wells and drive RRs

Absolutely no wrong info there. Maybe you really should check out car deals in the Gulf and Middle East more carefully. The deal I am talking about was actually on for the Hyundai Sonata car a short while ago. And no.. I have no illusions about the oil wells and RRs in the Gulf, but now I sure am getting rather disillusioned about how well informed you guys are  Insane

3. I have to seriously recommend a brain scan for you if you still have not got what I'm trying to say in two posts already. Nuts

4. I give up.. any further arguments with you and I'll have to go for that brain scan myself. Nuts  Nuts
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
SV777KiloAlpha
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RE: EK And The 727?

Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:00 am


Vimanav,
You said:
I have to seriously recommend a brain scan for you if you still have not got what I'm trying to say in two posts already

I will also leave our discussion here, since I don't like to get involved when it gets personal. When I discuss issues with "well educated and mature individuals" I never expect to hear any type of insult.

Shame on You! Or is this your usual exit strategy when you feel you are out of answers/reasons?

This is my last reply to this topic.

HZ-AKA
PPL since 2006