DIA
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Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:00 am


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Photo © Daniel Wojdylo



I guess I've never noticed after all these years . . . but, are all de-icing formulas the same, or not? I've never noticed orange foam at DEN. Are there different applicants for different temperatures, or different cities/airports?

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contrails
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:04 am

I've never seen orange de-icing solution either. I was at ORD a few weeks ago when AA was de-icing some planes and it was certainly not orange. It appeared to be clear.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
Lindy
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:06 am

Here at IAD and DCA the mixture is orange as well. Also when I was at ZRH last year I've noticed that most of Swiss aircrafts had that orange thing on them.

Rafal
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BestWestern
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:18 am

Havent they started using the Orange colorant as a visable sign to show where they have de-iced as another fail safe mechanism?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
DIA
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:22 am

"Havent they started using the Orange colorant as a visable sign to show where they have de-iced as another fail safe mechanism?

That's a great idea if it's true.

Looking at the other responses and the pic location in Buffalo got me to thinking. . .if it isn't just to "show" where the de-icer has been sprayed, maybe they use it sometimes in more humid areas? Probably not, but I thought I'd get that thought out there. . .
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elwood64151
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:27 am

After working at MCI, I wasn't aware that there was another color for de-ice fluid...
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
sjoic
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:31 am

Orange glycol is usually ethylene based. There are many manufacturers of deicing fluid. They either make propelyne or the ethylene based glycols. I believe the manufacturers actually dye the fluid, but there is a pretty consistent approach to that... Jeff
 
Goose
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:33 am

Type I De-Ice fluid is orange in color, and is mixed 50/50 with water if I recall (it's been a while since I took that course). It's been orange for as long as I can remember. It's "served" hot, and is used to remove contaminants (accumulated snow) from wings and control surfaces.

It's not so much a "foam" as it is an airated spray coming out of the hose (somewhat like water out of a fire hose nozzle), so it can look foamy going onto the surfaces of the plane.

Type IV Anti-Ice fluid is green in color, and has the consistancy somewhat similar to Palmolive dish soap, somewhat thicker. It's "served" colder and at lower pressure than Type I, and is used (actually, it's sort of "sprinkled on," depending on the competancy of the operator) after Type I application to prevent further accumulation of contaminants on taxi and runway take-off.

[Edited 2003-12-22 17:37:06]
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
elwood64151
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:35 am

Goose:

It is a 50/50 mix... I'd never seen Type IV, we'd only used Type I at Vanguard...
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
Goose
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:38 am

Type IV does exist, I've seen it used quite often here at YYC and a few other places I've been. It's normally applied after the temperature reaches a certain level (I think it was -25 C or lower).... so on those -40 C days it is used quite a bit  Big grin
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
AirT85
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:46 am

I've seen the green de-icing fluid at PIT before...I also remember seeing pink de-icing fluid at ATL when I was younger (mid-90s) is there such a thing or am I remember wrong?

Tony

Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
 
Goose
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:48 am

Type I can look pink, especially on a white fuselage....
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Jetmarc
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:50 am

Last time I de-iced in IAD, it was definetly green - 'Song Green' - and it was thick and you could see it ripple off in waves over the wing during take off... and it stank. Love it.
"Sucka, I'm gonna send you out on Knuckle Airlines. Fist Class!!" ~ Mr. T
 
COIAH99
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:59 am

From what I remember about de-icing Type I is a 50-50 mix with glycol and water. Depending on how much accumulation there is it can be sprayed on the entire aircraft. Type IV on the other hand I was told should only be sprayed on the wings and tail sections as this type can after time corrode the window seals.
So if that photo is Type IV (orange) I wonder why its covering the fuselage?
Work Hard Fly Right
 
COIAH99
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:03 am

To add one more point about Type IV...It's my understanding that it's used when it's still snowing. It acts as a buffer when the a/c is taxiing to the runway. Any accumulation will then "slide" off when the aircraft states its takeoff. Thus giving it a "clean" wing.
Work Hard Fly Right
 
KROC
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:07 am

Type one is Glycol and water as perviously mentioned, and is orange in color. Type 4 glycol is as said greenish in color. The photo shows the bird covered in Type 1. I've taken a few jetBlue pics with the orange glycol all over it at Buffalo. I have had some sprayed on me as well as I got to close a couple of times trying to get pictures. Nasty stuff.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:22 am

So am I the only one who thinks it makes this jetBlue aircraft look like a 50-50 ice cream bar?  Big grin
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
penguinflies
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:37 am

At UPS in STL we have both Type 1 and 4 in use. Not that it snows here...
 
zrb2
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:46 am

Here's another picture of a creamsicle. Nothing better than flying into and out of BUF on days like this!

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=197261
 
jayspilot
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:49 am

goose was right on with his discription..
the basic rule of thumb between the two types of fluid is that type 1 is a deicer, meaning that if there is stuff on the plane, ie. ice on the leading edges or snow on the roof from just sitting or frost from the night..... but not currently an "icing event" you just spray it off and go..
Type four, is an anti-icer.....which i might add is very very expensive, is applied when there is an icing event in progress,, meaning snow that is sticking to the aircraft or light freezing rain.. the stuff coats the plane with the gel goose discribed and comes off as the plane accellerates in takeoff and flt taking the crud with it. its pretty neat stuff, and actually requires more back pressure on takeoff due to the increased weight...

in the winter in northern cities, you will see the major airlines deicing often when the temp is cold out b/c they aren't able to tell if there is ice on the plane or not (wings are too high to tell)

hope this helps..
 
PVD757
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:55 am

Type I 50/50 (glycol and water) and type IV are both widely used in PVD. Type I is used for "frost" spraying and to remove any contamination during any deicing situation. Type IV is more gelatinous in texture (jelly) and is used for hold-over times (i.e. XX minutes during XX precipitation to taxi to the runway and take-off). Type IV will "sheer" off the aircraft at 80mph as will any contamination that might have built up on top of the type IV. All deice fluid is heated (in the trucks) prior to application. Ethylene glycol is no longer used as it is environmentally unfriendly, so you will only see propylene glycol used. Type I is either pink or orange depending on the manufacurer ("max-fly" fluid is pink) and type IV is light green. I've heard that a new, safer derivitive of ethylene glycol may become approved for use new year that will increase the hold-over times as it is easier and holds the heat longer. So, type I is always used to decontaminate, regardless of the need for type IV, which would be used to get the aircraft from the deice area to take-off.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:22 am

Type IV is used when there is on going precipitation and cannot be used once the temp. drops below -25 Celsius.
 
Goose
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:26 am

From what I remember about de-icing Type I is a 50-50 mix with glycol and water. Depending on how much accumulation there is it can be sprayed on the entire aircraft. Type IV on the other hand I was told should only be sprayed on the wings and tail sections as this type can after time corrode the window seals.

All deice fluid can corrode if not eventually cleaned off - it's the alchohol content.

Type I should not be sprayed on windows or the fuselage if it can be avoided. If they need to remove contaminants (snow build-up) from the fuselage, then Type I will be applied sparingly to the very top - never onto the sides. The heat from the Type I fluid is a couple hundred degrees C, and as I recall it's not a good idea to spray it onto glass, as cracks from the temperature difference can result.

The picture posted above illustrates quite well how to remove accumulation from the fuselage;

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=197261


So if that photo is Type IV (orange) I wonder why its covering the fuselage?

Type IV is not orange, it is green. It is Type I which is all over the fuselage in the photo.

[Edited 2003-12-22 19:28:11]
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
DLMHT
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:36 am

Like PVD757 has stated above, Type I fluid is a 50% water/50% propylene glycol mix. Its usually heated to approx. 160 degrees, and is used to remove contaminants from the surface of the aircraft (i.e. frost, snow, ice). The color of the fluid depends on the manufacturer, but it is usually pink or orange in color.

After the Air Florida crash in DC, the FAA passed a law that stated the no aircraft could take off with any contaminants on any of the critical surfaces. This is called the "clean aircraft concept". My memory escapes me as to where in the FARs this can be found. Therefore, its very critical that aircraft are inspected for ice or frost or anything else before takeoff, which is why you will see a ramp agent doing a final walk-around just before departure time during winter operations. The MD-88 is notorious for having frost on the wings due to cold-soaked fuel in the wing tanks, so it usually always has to be deicied when temperatures fall below freezing.

Type IV (sometimes called Type II) is 100% glycol mixture, and has the consistency of the Nickolodeon Goop that we used to play with as kids. It is usually green in color. This is an anti-ice mixture, and is applied only after Type I has been applied. It is not heated. It is usually applied only to the wings and tail and other critical surfaces of the aircraft due to its expense (roughly $5.00 per gallon). Therefore, airlines usually discourage use of it unless necessary. It acts as a buffer against any ice or snow buildup, and is usually applied only when there is active precipitation present.

According to the manufacturer, glycol is completely biodegradeable and non-toxic, but I would advise against ingesting any. Of course, anyone who has deiced behind running engines knows that it has a tendency to blow right back in your face, and you smell like maple syrup for the rest of the day!

And welcome to my RR list, PVD757

DLMHT
 
AC_B777
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:04 am

Type 1 is for the removal of any contamenants such as snow, ice or frost. It is usually orange in color, but I have seen pink as well. As Goose said, it is 50/50 mix. Type 1 has to be heated to at least 180 degrees C for it to properly work (this is the manditory temp in Canada, it may differ in other countries) It can be sprayed on the fuselage but not windows and doors. At Air Canada, it is up to the captain if he/she wants the fuselage sprayed.

Type 4 is a thick green glycol. We often refer to it as "Whale Snot". It is very thick. In Canada, type 4 is only to be used after the plane has been de-iced with type 1. Type 4 is known as Anti-ice. When applied to an a/c that has been de-iced, it will keep snow from re-adhering to the wings for approx 45 minutes. Type 4 does not need to be heated and is not to be sprayed on the fuselage as it is very heavy and will add a lot of extra weight to an a/c.

AC_B777
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PVD757
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:18 am

ditto DLMHT, friendly neighbor to the north! Here's to the best two airports in New England - MHT & PVD!
 
DFORD757
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:01 am

Maybe I'm wrong...but I don't think type I is always a 50/50 mix. It depends on the temp. outside. I know there is an AC out by the FAA that tells all about it. If I can find it...I will post the link...there is a really good graph of what mixture to use, for what solution, for what temperature.

DFORD757
 
xjramper
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:43 am

Dford:
Type I deice fluid is almost always at 50/50 and falls between certain temperatures(-37 and -41 degrees, I think). Too much water, and the glycol/water mix will freeze and too much glycol, the glycol/water mix will gel. They did some experiments on the discovery wings channel and we learned it in our de-ice class.

XJRamper
Look ma' no hands!
 
sjoic
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:27 am

60/40 (sixty glycol/forty water) is the max allowed. It isn't that the fluid can go any thicker, the manufacturers have only gaurenteed it to the temps 60/40 will cover. It will vary per station, and current weather patterns. We usually mix our glycol to 55/45 and produce a -37 C freeze point and a actual use temperature of -27 C with the buffer.
Just a note, there are two types of Type 1 - ethylene based or propylene based. Propylene is better for the enviornment and usually produces that pinkish color, while ehtylene is the orange, it is a matter of what suppliers you use. You cannot mix the two.
Type 4 is like a giant green snot ball. It is thick and nasty, you do not heat or dilute it. When there is active precipitation, it is generally used depending on taxi times.
Jeff
 
MHTOH
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:57 pm

When the mix ratio is over 60/40, the chemical composition actually makes the fluid ineffective. One would think that the more glycol that is present the better, but not so...

Hey dlmht, how's the arm???


mhtoh
mmm...jet fuel...
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:10 am

AC_B777

Actually it is usually up to the ground crew when and where the aircraft gets sprayed. The captain can request a spray and it has to be done but the Lead on the ramp can also call for a spray regardless of what the pilots think.
 
APAOps5
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:39 am

Anyone seen those taxi-thru "tanning bed" hangars for de-icing, and are they still required to anti-ice afterwards?
 
raven111
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:43 am

We have a heated hanger but, it's not a drive thru.

I like the idea.
"The secret to my success is that I always managed to live to fly another day." Chuck Yeager
 
APAOps5
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:51 am

Welcome to McDe-ice, will that be De-icing fluid or Anti-icing fluid? Would you like that supersized? For here or to go?
 
N1120A
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:57 am

Well, I am not a de-ice expert but I have seen clear (JNU) and sea green (ZRH, they covered those suckers)
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AC_B777
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:42 am

Whiteguy,

From my training, the captain of the flight decides whether or not to have the fuselage sprayed. Most captains will request a fuselage de-ice if there is a large amount of snow, but some will request it not be sprayed.
We had 10-15cm last Sunday here in YYT and I was on the spray crew. One A320 Cpt wanted the fuselage sprayed while another A320 cpt did'nt and the captains on a 763 and an A319 also did'nt want their fuselages sprayed.
The wings and tails of all planes were done with both Type 1 and Type 4 fluids.
The fuselage of an a/c obviously provides no lift for an a/c and in some cases, spraying a lot of type 1 glycol on a fuselage will actually increase the takeoff weight more than if the snow was left there.

AC_B777
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
longhaulheavy
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:46 am

JetBLUE? Looks more like JetGotPissedOn.
 
travatl
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:56 am

While working at AA in the DRO ski station a few years back, I became quite familiar with the deicing fluids I and IV. But I've always wondered...what happened to II and III?

Travis
 
L-188
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RE: Orange JetBlue De-Ice Picture & Question

Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:14 pm

OK, some bad info circulating here.

The color of the fluied is based on the chemical contents, AFAIK they do not use a dye in it.

Most fluids today are Propelyne Glycol. Same stuff that they use for those "enviromentally friendly" car antifreezes. I have also seen it listed as an ingredent in a bag of strawberry muffin mix. I think it was a preservative for the berries.

Etheleyne Glycol used to be used, the summer I worked at Alaska that is what they where shooting. This is the green stuff and is chemically simular to the green stuff in your car radiator. Nobody uses this stuff anymore because of enviromental concerns.

The FAR's don't spell out specific fluids to be used, just that the aircraft has to be clean, So I have heard of other fluids being used to de-ice aircraft, Isoprypl Alchohol, straight water and believe it or not but Vodka(In Magadan Russia). The hot setup for deicing is actually hot air, no worry about runoff when that is used. Now that being said, I can't picture the FAA approving a set of OPS Specs without limitations as to the type of deicing used.

Type I is the thin stuff, You can vary the mix of Type I and water, 50/50 or 60/40 are typical but most deice trucks have a selector valve to do this. There are tables made for the various holdover times of different mix ratios.

Type II was Type I with a thickening agent. Nobody used that stuff up in Alaska. For one reason it required a 100 knot sheer speed, which means you want the airplane to rotate above that speed, or else you take off with wings contamiated with de-ice fluid rather then ice (Yes, deice fluid is a contaminate too) and you are in just as much trouble as if the aircraft had ice on the wing. That sheer speed limit is why Reeve never used the stuff since the YS-11 rotate at less then that speed.

Not quite up with Type III and IV, both came around after I went to the office, but we due use Type IV where I work now. It is applied straight, not mixed with water, it is bluish in color, not sure if this is a dye job. It is applied to a clean wing and protects it from contamination that may come down while the aircraft is parked.

A very handy property on medivac flights to remote sites in Alaska with no on-airport deice facilities.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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