aviationfreak
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Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:10 am

KLM announced this a while ago at their website:

"KLM is currently renewing its intercontinental fleet. The current Boeing 747-300, MD-11 and Boeing 767 aircraft will be replaced as of 2003 by Boeing 777-200 ER aircraft and Airbus 330-200. The current Boeing 747-300 freighters will be replaced by Boeing 747-400 freighters.

The first 747 400ER Freighter was delivered in March 2003. When the fleet renewal is completed, KLM`s intercontinental fleet will consist of three types: Boeing 747-400, Boeing 777-200ER and Airbus 330-200."

So they will get Airbus a/c. I find this a bit strange. Believe me I have nothing against Airbus or Boeing. Correct me if I`m wrong but I always thought that KLM replaced their A310`s for 767`s in the past because KLM was not very font of Airbus a/c. Besides they were not that old that they needed to be replaced.
And I also think Airbus a/c will not be good for fleet commonality.

So why does the Royal Dutch Airline want Airbus a/c now?

BTW I personally would like another KLM plane with winglets. Smile/happy/getting dizzy
I love both Airbus and Boeing as much as I love aviation!
 
ka
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:15 am

First, why not? The A332 is a very modern and economic a/c. And regarding commonality: Do we know if they aren´t planning behind the scenes for an A380 Combi if launched??

KA.
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Scorpio
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:19 am

First, the A310s were not replaced because KLM 'didn't like them'. They were replaced because of a change in KLM's route structure, i.e. more flights with higher frequency but with smaller planes within Europe, as well as on the long haul. Some A310s were thus replaced by 737s in Europe, and could not be redeployed on the long haul, because they lacked the range (they were -200s). So, KLM decided to replace them with the 767.

The 767 is less than ideal for KLM, because, while it has the range, it lacks the cargo capacity KLM needs. Enter the A330-200, which has both the range and the cargo capacity. So the plane was ordered (firm order for 6, options for 18). It seems several airlines have opted for a mix of 777 and A330-200 (e.g. AF, EK) and it seems to work fine for them.
 
LJ
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:24 am

So why does the Royal Dutch Airline want Airbus a/c now?

The leases on the B767 will expire, the B777 is too big for the intended A330 routes, KLM doesn't want to rely on 1 supplier for its aircraft and although KLM wasn't happy with the A310, the A330 has proved itself over the past few years.

And I also think Airbus a/c will not be good for fleet commonality.

ehhhh Northwest has them, Air France has them thus commonality enough I say (not to mention other Skyteam airlines)
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:00 am

I also think the 332 is an odd change. I wonder if there is a political element involved in that as a Euro carrier it feels political pressure to have some AI aircraft in its fleet?

Anyway, the 332 order was placed prior to the 7E7 prospect. Given that the 7E7 will be more efficient than the the 332, hopefully Boeing is pushing hard for KLM to drop the 332 order in favour of a 7E7 order.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
wietse
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:04 am

I dont think that here in the Netherlands there is a pro Airbus economy. If any, it would be pro Boeing.

Wietse
Wietse de Graaf
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:11 am

Yyz717,
"given that the 7E7 will be more efficient than the 332"

The 7E7 hasn't even been given it's final design yet or have the engines been chosen. How is it a given that it will be more fuel efficient?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:16 am

The 7E7 hasn't even been given it's final design yet or have the engines been chosen. How is it a given that it will be more fuel efficient?

It's being marketed by Boeing as more efficient than the 332. Indeed, if the 7E7 is to be successful, it would have to be more efficient than the 332.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:19 am

I also think the 332 is an odd change. I wonder if there is a political element involved in that as a Euro carrier it feels political pressure to have some AI aircraft in its fleet?

That's ridiculous and I certainly hope it was a joke. They want planes soon to replace the 767s and the 330 is the best tool for the job, for reasons already detailed.

Given that the 7E7 will be more efficient than the the 332, hopefully Boeing is pushing hard for KLM to drop the 332 order in favour of a 7E7 order.

They want planes before 2008/2009 I'd assume is most of it, and there are lots of things that are more efficient than other things but people still choose to buy them for a host of nonpolitical reasons.

N
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:21 am

The 7E7 Stretch is being aimed to be more efficient than the A332, due to its new bleedless engines and light airframe.

My guess as to why KLM ordered the A332---And I'm surprised nobody has said this but the A332 is an amazing aircraft, the best in its class and probably one of the best overall commercial aircrafts available today. For that reason they are selling like crazy and that is why Boeing is developing the 7E7 stretch with the sole intention of beating the A332.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:35 am

They want planes soon to replace the 767s

It raises the issue of why does KLM need to replace their 763's? They are relatively young.

As for the political consideration of ordering the 332, I was being serious. When the 772/332 order was announced, a senior KLM exec was quoted as saying that the joint order was a balance betw Boeing & Airbus. This comment "implies" a number of things: that KLM does not want to rely just on Boeing, and that in a highly politically charged EU airline environment, KLM was conspicuous as the only "flag carrier" without AI equipment until the 332 order. Of course KLM could have chosen the 332 strictly on its operational/financial metrics without political pressure at all.

Nonetheless, with the 7E7 offering since the KLM 332 order, it's only natural that KLM would reconsider the 332 order in light of the new 7E7 option.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
LJ
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:40 am

I feel our usual Airbus vs Boeing war coming again......

Anyway, anyone who is amazed that KLM didn't order from Boeing was sleeping as the management indicated many times (in public) that it didn't want to rely on one supplier. And which comapny besides Boeing can deliver widebodies to KLM?? Not many.

BTW haven't we discussed this before??
 
LJ
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:50 am

It raises the issue of why does KLM need to replace their 763's? They are relatively young.

Yyz717, the lease on the 767s expire between 2005 and 2009. The lease contract stipulates three options. The first option is to extend the lease for another x years. The second option is to buy the B767. The third option is to continue the lease but with another type. KLM has opted for option 3 probably beacuse buying would be too expensive and the cargo capabilities aren't great.

This comment "implies" a number of things: that KLM does not want to rely just on Boeing, and that in a highly politically charged EU airline environment

I can assure you that the first thing you amply is correct. Dureing a guest lecture at my university (back in 1999) the senior person of the procurement department told about the benefits of using dual sources for procurement (including aircraft). And guess what happened four years later?
 
aviationfreak
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:39 am

It was not my intention to start a new battle in the so called Boeing/Airbus war! I really, really hate that!! Angry
This whole Boeing vs Airbus thing is ridiculous. When I started this topic I said that I have nothing against any of them. The reason I did that was to prevent the B vs A thing. Actually I like almost all planes of both manufactures. Like somebody already said before, no one would like to see a/c mainly from one manufacturer. So I hope they both last long. Everyone who replies something B vs A related and being negative about one of them is acting very childish. So if you intend to, don't!  Pissed

Everyone else, thank you very much for the interesting reply`s. I know something now I always was curious about.

BTW keep on replying if you want as long it is not A vs B related.
I love both Airbus and Boeing as much as I love aviation!
 
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DaV
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:40 am

I also think the 332 is an odd change. I wonder if there is a political element involved in that as a Euro carrier it feels political pressure to have some AI aircraft in its fleet?

No, it's not. They needed an aircraft with similar pax payload of the 767, better (far better) cargo payload than the 767, and better economics than the M11. KLM is well known to do it's own interest, not others... drop the political theme, it won't work here :rolleyes

Anyway, the 332 order was placed prior to the 7E7 prospect. Given that the 7E7 will be more efficient than the the 332, hopefully Boeing is pushing hard for KLM to drop the 332 order in favour of a 7E7 order.

If that happens, KL will
a) have to pay a penalty (of which we don't know the amount, but I doubt it will be fair)
b) they'll have to wait until the end of the decade, leaving them with no suitable aircraft for their intended operation.
I hope for Boeing that they'll come out with something more efficient in so many years, otherwise they'll have hard times.

DaV
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aviationfreak
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:45 am

Dav,

KLM is well known to do it's own interest, not others... drop the political theme, it won't work here.

You are so right. The Dutch government always was a big shareholder in both Fokker and KLM. When they tried to press KLM to buy the F100 The Royal Dutch Airline wasn't very coöperitive.

BTW that I find the choice for the A332 a bit odd doesn't mean I'm not happy about it. I like a/c with winglets.

[Edited 2003-12-24 20:03:49]
I love both Airbus and Boeing as much as I love aviation!
 
Celticmanx
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:50 am

The KLM decision to take A330 has been smart enough, as well as most airlines worldwide. If you see those airlines that has been for a long time a B767 operators and have been looking to replace them, they have opted to acquire the A330 and that's why this airplane is leading on medium to long high density routes, whereas its current competitor B767-400 has been unsuccessful. On the other hand, The B777 is for Long haul routes and play a much different role than the A330. In fact the A340 is the direct competitor of the B777, but in this case Boeing has proved to be more efficient. Airlines will always go for the best option available and the airplanes orders speak by themselves.
Now the 7E7 is a plan, not even a proyect. A long study is under way to decide whether or not the 7E7 is feasible to build. Meanwhile the 7E7 is not even offered, because the engineers are not sure yet if they'll get the numbers they want in order to build it, whereas the A330 is already airborne and being delivered like hot cakes.
We can even think that when the 7E7 is ready and if KLM would be interested, it will possibly be the option to replace the old A330 by then.
 
jwenting
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:23 am

The 310s were taken out of service because they were dangerously unstable when used in the role KLM had envisioned for them.
They were completely unsuited to KLMs mode of operation which includes mixing cargo and passengers on the same flight.

At the time KLM vowed to never buy Airbus again and go for an all-Boeing fleet, something they almost accomplished.

The 330s were most likely purchased on orders from Paris, being a political decision more than anything.
I wish I were flying
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:30 am

Even if that is true, that doesn't mean the A332 won't serve them very well. They will be more profitable than the current 767s.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Scorpio
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:45 am

Jwenting,

Please at least TRY to be a bit honest in your responses. We all know of your almost insane obsession with the KLM-AF thing (some of the statements you've made about that here are irrational to say the least), and you most obviously let it cloud your judgment, but you're going a wee bit far this time, don't you think?

They were completely unsuited to KLMs mode of operation which includes mixing cargo and passengers on the same flight.

Pretty much every airline does this. It's what the plane was designed for. KLM got rid of the A310s because they lacked the range KLM needed when they changed their strategy, as explained above. Your theory makes little to no sense, and it's the very first time I've ever heard anyone bring this 'problem' forward.

At the time KLM vowed to never buy Airbus again and go for an all-Boeing fleet, something they almost accomplished.

You know, that's repeated here at infinitum by some members of this forum, and yet I've never seen it confirmed by anyone official at KLM.

The 330s were most likely purchased on orders from Paris, being a political decision more than anything.

This one takes the cake. The planes were ordered at a time when KLM was still widely rumoured to merge with BA. Of course you'll just say that the 'evil French' were already lurking behind a corner, and BA was used as a smokescreen, right? It also doesn't mix in with your theory that AF will dissolve KLM in the next few years, which you've repeated here at infinitum over the last few months, because in that case AF would have allowed KLM to order... NOTHING. Oh yeah, that's right, the planes will be delivered in AF colors, right...  Nuts

Sorry about the rant, but this guy has been getting on my nerves for some time now, with his assinine comments.
 
wietse
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:20 am

Sorry about the rant, but this guy has been getting on my nerves for some time now, with his assinine comments.

ow, yours as well? trust me you are not alone.

Everyone, stop this insane discussion, they picked the A330, because it fitted in their development plan and I cant wait to see them!

Wietse
Wietse de Graaf
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 7:06 am

I agree totally....KLM needed a new plane in that category and what choice did they have? The A332 far beats the 764.....and the 7E7 is still 6 or 7 years away.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
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keesje
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:43 am

KLM long haul fleet will be :
- 400 seat 744´s
- 320 seat 772´s
- 280 seat 774 combi´s
- 250 seat 332´s

Great mix with excellent cargo capasity and all with the range to do almost all destinations in the long haul network from AMS. This gives great flexibility to vary capasity as demand changes.

The fact that the M11´s will continue to fly for KLM is due to their good lease rates and their excellent cargo capability.

The differences in efficiency, range and cargo capasity between the 767 and 330 are so big that the 767 orders are coming to a halt and Boeing is forced to respond with the 7e7. However KLM and many others Boeing loyals don´t want to wait 9-10 yrs for it.

Politics don´t play a role here ..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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DaV
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 9:10 am

There is strong suggestive evidence from significant political involvement in other Airbus orders throughout the world

And the same about Boeing. What proves that?  Insane

As Lj said, perhaps KLM wanted a dual supplier which would have meant an Airbus order in due course anyway.

Again, what does it have to do with politics? It's a double smart move by KL: they got the airplane that fitted at best their need, and now they don't have to rely on one supplier but they have the possibility to switch from one to another and back again; they gained the maximum beneficts, that is heavy discounts on new airplanes purchase  Big grin

DaV
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aviationfreak
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 9:26 am

Can't believe this. I successfully ended a B vs A battle and a new war is started.

Don't be too hard for Jwenting. I can understand his point of view. We al know that the merge (don't know if you can still speak of a merge, it looks like a takeover to me) is a very sensitive subject here in the Netherlands. After the bankrupt of Fokker the merge with AF teared up my proud and Dutch aviation hart. So I can understand that my aviation loving country fellowmen would feel the same way.

Sometimes I even start thinking that someone in the Netherlands gave KLM away and that probable made that guy filthy rich.

But I also agree that continue nagging about it isn't an option and BTW this discussion isn't related to this topic. Sorry but I had to say it. Please forgive me! Embarrassment
I love both Airbus and Boeing as much as I love aviation!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 9:54 am

Odd considering Yyz717 is actually from Europe!Perhaps bashing and criticism are 2 things in your eyes?

Thanks for your support Donder! I was not Euro-bashing. Indeed, to even suggest that Airbus gains some orders from political pressure is not even Airbus-bashing. It's merely stating a factoid that politics pays a part in ALL large aircraft orders from time to time.

Euro-bashing. Moi? Indeed....how funny  Laugh out loud
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
sv11
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:11 pm

Some of Boeing's traditional customers like Qantas, KLM and EVA Air have ordered the A330-200. I think it is an outstanding aircraft in terms of cargo capacity and range. No wonder the 7E7 is aimed at the A330-200 and replacing older A300/310. The 767 cannot carry two LD3 side by side. If it could these airlines might have ordered 767. I believe cargo is quite important for KLM and EVA as these airlines have lot of combi aircraft.

sv11
 
anxebla
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:32 pm

Aviationfreak:Don't be angry  Smile ANYWAY... I agree with you,always is the same with Boeing-Airbus.Both manufacturers make good planes.
KL need the A-330.Remember,B-777 is bigger than A-330.You can't compare a Renault Megane with a VW Passat.Are "sizes" differents....That's all.Regards from Madrid.
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft
 
LJ
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 10:03 pm

Although it has been discussed before here goes the entire reasoning behind KLMs A310, B767 and now A330 purchase.

Initially KLM wanted to buy the B767-300ER. However at the time the A310 could be delivered earlier than the B767-300ER and the prospect of using LD3 containers was very attractive. The A310s were used mainly to Western Africa, Northern Africa, Middle East (Tel Aviv, Damascus and Amman) and high density european routes (for example London and Paris). However due to a strategy change the A310s became useless on the European routes as KLM prefered higher frequency (and thus had to use smaller aircraft like the B737). Fortunately due to the B747-400 the B747 could fly nonstop to Asia and thus made the usual stop in the Middle East unnecessary. The A310s were therefore redeployed to the Middle East but they lacked range as Scorpio correctly pointed out. Therefore out of the blue KLM announced the A310 replacement by leased B767-300ER (from ILFC) despite the fact that the B767 uses LD2 containers. However the B767-300ER fitted perfectly into the new KLM strategy and the LD2 container problem was less important. KLM always pointed out that the B767 was a mid term solution (hence the three options in the lease contract) and that they waited for a long term solution.

The final decision was to be made in cooperation with Northwest Airlines. Nothwest and KLM planned a joint purchase (although this never happened). As some know the final decision on the B777/A330 order was taken over a period of at least 4 years. Back in 1999 it was known that KLM was looking for a long term replacement of its widebody fleet (notably the MD-11) and it has taken 4 years untill they made their choice public.

Was there any lobbying by the Dutch government to buy Airbus? It's a well known fact that certain politicians wanted KLM to buy Airbus to get Dutch companies more involved in the Airbus consortium. However, the Dutch politicians failed miserably. Moreover, those politicians lobbying for Airbus (or better lobbying for Dutch companies who wanted to do business with Airbus) weren't in power when KLM finally made the decision and had probably already given up hope.

BTW when the B767 leaves the KLM fleet the entire widebody fleet will be LD3 compatible, something KLM always liked
 
Scorpio
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 10:39 pm

Lj,

Thank you for that explanation. however, there's one major flaw in your reasoning:

Initially KLM wanted to buy the B767-300ER. However at the time the A310 could be delivered earlier than the B767-300ER and the prospect of using LD3 containers was very attractive.

KLM ordered the A310 in 1978. At that time, there was no such thing as a 767-300ER. It wasn't even launched yet. the first 767-300ER only entered service in 1988. KLM was already operating the A310 by the time the 767-300ER was launched.
 
flpuck6
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:24 pm

The 330s should not be compared to the 777.

As already mentioned, another company like AF has a fleet of 330s and 777s, each aircraft used on DIFFERENT types of routes!
Bonjour Chef!
 
LJ
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:23 pm

KLM ordered the A310 in 1978. At that time, there was no such thing as a 767-300ER. It wasn't even launched yet. the first 767-300ER only entered service in 1988. KLM was already operating the A310 by the time the 767-300ER was launched.

Indeed a small mistake. KLM looked at a B767 with sufficient range and although I don't know how far Boeing was with the B767-300ER at the time I think KLM looked at the B767-200ER. However this version was either in development or it was too busy on the preoduction line.
 
L-188
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:26 pm

Short Answer.

Their preferred aircraft supplier went out of business.

Remember KLM is the only airline that I know of that flew every aircraft type that Douglas ever built.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
killerbabe
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:02 pm

I think KLM ordered the A330-200 as a result from pressure from NWA, their partner in the US, who placed a big A330 order as we all know.
Who knows, KLM ass one of the launch-costumers for the 7E7. That would be great
 
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solnabo
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:27 pm

Rechtop in de wind, Airbus332.
 Big thumbs up
Michael/SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
UN_B732
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:14 pm

They might be "young" but has anyone read SR 103's trip report?
-UN
What now?
 
jwenting
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:26 am

so now being opposed to the AF takeover of KLM means you're a fascist?
I'd have expected such a response from a far left communist unionmember as they see enemies everywhere (and probably correctly) but explain...

The 777s look good, but what does that have to do with the wisdom of ordering A330s?

The 767 is currently the most successful platform in the KLM fleet.
The aircraft has a magnificent service record, being the most reliable in the fleet and offering good flexibility.
The most logical replacement would have been another 767, not an A330.
The choice of the A330 told me that KLM would be taken over by another A330 operator, and one that does not use 767s.
That left Lufthansa and Air France. As KLM has not had any contacts with Lufthansa about "cooperation" Air France was the only logical conclusion.

You see, you're the one who's misinformed and seeing conspiracies everywhere... Better report to your nearest reeducation center because your usefulness to the Party has ended.
I wish I were flying
 
Scorpio
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:45 am

so now being opposed to the AF takeover of KLM means you're a fascist?

No, but bitching about it in EVERY DAMN POST in an irrational manner makes you a BORE. Jwenting: Je zaagt.

The 767 is currently the most successful platform in the KLM fleet.
The aircraft has a magnificent service record, being the most reliable in the fleet and offering good flexibility.
The most logical replacement would have been another 767, not an A330.


One word, as quoted more than once by KLM itself, to counter all of that: Cargo.

The choice of the A330 told me that KLM would be taken over by another A330 operator, and one that does not use 767s.
That left Lufthansa and Air France. As KLM has not had any contacts with Lufthansa about "cooperation" Air France was the only logical conclusion.


What, now you're going to claim prophetic gifts to yourself? You must be getting desperate.

You see, you're the one who's misinformed and seeing conspiracies everywhere...

I'm sorry, but he's not the one going around these boards screaming "AF wants to kill KLM!!! No really, AF WANTS TO KILL KLM!!!!! And if you don't believe me, I'll just say it a little louder and a few times more!!" That wasn't Sabena 690, was it? He was also not the one who, out of the blue, claimed the decision to order A330s was political, when nothing's pointing in that direction, neither was he the one who, again out of the blue, claimed KLM hated the A310 as it was 'dagerously unstable'. That was YOU, on all three counts.
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:47 am

The most logical replacement would have been another 767, not an A330.

I don't understand how you can advocate the replacement of a 20 year old plane with another 20 year old plane.

I also don't understand how, even after several people have explained that KL would like to haul more cargo, in standard LD3 containers, to slightly more distant destinations that don't warrant a 777, you continue to advocate the 767.

The 330 and 777 are powerful partners at some of the best airlines in the world. KL made a wise choice.

N
 
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DaV
Posts: 657
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 5:26 am

RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:24 am

The most logical replacement would have been another 767, not an A330>

No, it's not logic  Pissed
I hope that you KNOW that YOUR flag carrier makes a lot of money with CARGO; I hope that you know, as an aviation enthusiast, that a B763, even if it's an excellent plane with excellent economics, can't load a LD3 pallet, but a smaller LD2 instead. In case you didn't know, you have a whole thread here to learn it. I also hope that you know that 767 has short leg when it comes to longer routes and full cargo payload.
Make 2+2, you get that KL needs an aircraft with

1) similar pax payload than 767
2) more cargo payload than 767
3) ability to deliver full cargo load on longer routes than 767
4) ability to load standard LD3 pallets than smaller LD2

and, wonder of wonders, which airplanes can do that? The *hint hint* Airbus A330-200!!
It's the second time in this da*n thread that I repeat this whole thing again, but you're so paranoic about AF/KL deal that you can't read replies other than yours...  Insane

DaV
Two monologues do not make a dialogue
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:36 am

DaV and Scorpio: thanks for your replies, but I'm afraid it doesn't make any sense... he doesn't believe it anyway! (I think he lives in some kind of dream world).

I'd have expected such a response from a far left communist unionmember as they see enemies everywhere

Me, a communist? Muhaha! Big grin I haven't seen the enemy of Air France yet...

The most logical replacement would have been another 767, not an A330.

Thanks for the laugh  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

The choice of the A330 told me that KLM would be taken over by another A330 operator, and one that does not use 767s.

Actually the choice for B772 told me they were going to be taken over by British Airways! Both carriers are also phasing out the B763! Makes sense, doesn't it?  Nuts
 
anxebla
Posts: 1696
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:31 am

RE: Why Did KLM Order A330`s?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:07 am

If the most logical replacement would have been another 767...the most logical replacemente for 727's is...other B-727.The same for the DC-10's even for the DC-3's  Big thumbs up
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