Jkw777
Topic Author
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:15 pm

Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:00 am

Hi there,

This is something I have been pondering for a while. I know these are becoming rarer and rarer, but as I have heard, it is dependent on the crew that you get on the flight as to whether or not you get one.

I am curious to know about (all of those that have done) when you asked for a jump seat ride and got one, plus whom did you ask?

I would also like to call all of those who asked for one and got rejected. What is the funniest reason you got back from the crew etc?

Many thanks,

Justin  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

jkw6210@btopenworld.com or +447751242989
 
ual777
Posts: 1497
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:07 am

This has been discussed again and again in detail. You cannot ride jumpseat unless you are crew. End of story.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
akjetBlue
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:59 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:09 am

FAA is not crew, are they? ATCC crew? Dispatchers on FAM crew?
Save a horse! Ride a Cowboy!
 
ual777
Posts: 1497
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:11 am

FAA is different and you know it. Crew includes eligable employees working for the airline; i.e. offline pilots etc. I am not so sure dispatchers are allowed to jumpseat either, though I may be wrong on that one.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
akjetBlue
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:59 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:18 am

I think dispatchers are allowed to, as they need it once per year (I think) to remain current per FAR's. You did say "end of story". Can you define an offline pilot? Wouldn't that be OAL?
Save a horse! Ride a Cowboy!
 
GOT
Posts: 1843
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2000 6:44 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:21 am

That is not entirely true. Rules shift from country to country, generally it is tougher in the US than in Europe, but I believe I've read that British registered a/c are not allowed to take jumpseaters any more.
I had the luck of three jumpseats this summer, all on SAS. Asked to talk to the pilots directly and after a little chat I asked if a jumpseat ride was possible. In three of four tries I was granted two landings and one flight from start-up to shutdown.
IMO, it depends very much on the crew, but also on the flight, time, your appearance, country airline and so on. Go ahead and ask, but be prepared to take a no.

GOT
Just like birdwatching - without having to be so damned quiet!
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:39 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:37 am

AKjetblue:

An off line pilot is a pilot who works for another airline. There is a verrrrrrrrry short list of those airlines whose pilots can jump seat in the US. It consists of most U.S. airlines. Not just any pilot from any airline can ride jump seat in the U.S.

Let's put it like this: A retired airline pilot in the United States cannot ride jump seat on the airline from which he retired. Active pilots, FAA, ATC (under certain circumstances), and dispatchers (under certain circumstances) can ride the cockpit jump seat.

Even at that, unless the pilot is getting a check ride from the FAA or check airman, or ATC or dispatch is getting a familiarization ride, he can, and often does, tell the jump seat rider to make himself "at home in the back" if there are empty passenger seats. There is no refusing to go sit in the empty passenger seat.

I have never heard of a list of "eligible family members" who can ride jump seat. Pass ride, yes. Jump seat, no. I have never heard of a captain's wife being able to ride the jump seat simply because she is married to him.

As a flight attendant, I could not ride the cockpit jump seat. Since I am retired, I cannot ride a flight attendant jump seat either.

These jump seats are tightly controlled.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:39 am

Is it my imagination, or is this same question/topic coming up every 1-2 days within the last week or two?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:39 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:46 am

OPNLguy:

Is it my imagination, or is this same question/topic coming up every 1-2 days within the last week or two?

It is not your imagination. The same question keeps popping up about every 24-48 hours or so for about the last ten days. I think it's interesting.
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:56 am

May I point you towards the airliners.net FAQ, question #75.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Jkw777
Topic Author
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:15 pm

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:57 am

Seems to me that:

Most discussions have been archived on this topic:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/search.main?search_table=archived_general_aviation&search_field=topic&search_year=&search=Jump+seat&submit=Search+Forum%21

It is still quite possible:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © William Ronciere

Nice shot William  Big grin

Maybe I should of invited UK members to discuss  Laugh out loud

Sorry for stealing the jam out of your doughnuts chaps/ladies...

Justin  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
jkw6210@btopenworld.com or +447751242989
 
Brido
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 5:32 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:58 am

OPNL Guy/Piedmont Girl:

Folks want to keep on asking the same thing till they get the answer they want! They are waiting for the day someone will say:

"You have no training, experience, or affiliation with aviation in any way and no one at this airline knows you from Adam. Cockpit jumpseat? Sure! Welcome aboard!"

Ain't gonna happen. This isn't 1966, folks.

BTW, it strikes me that we have OPNL Guy and Piedmont Girl...cute couple?!
 
akjetBlue
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:59 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:03 am

I think a.net gets a lot of new users..like myself, who dont know the whole site yet. Please let all the newbies know where to find stuff, as I learn more and more everytime I sign on, which has been a lot, as of late  Smile
Save a horse! Ride a Cowboy!
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:07 am

You forgot mechanics if they are required for flight operations, like troubleshooting a problem which can´t be reproduced on ground during flight.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ptica2000
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2000 1:48 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:29 am

It is quite possible in Europe. But you must be European.

Nejc
 
Jkw777
Topic Author
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:15 pm

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:38 am

Well that keeps me in the picture.

Justin  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
jkw6210@btopenworld.com or +447751242989
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:39 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:46 am

MD11Engineer:

You forgot mechanics if they are required for flight operations, like troubleshooting a problem which can´t be reproduced on ground during flight.

You're right about that. I've only seen that a couple of times in my career, but it does happen.
 
tbear815
Posts: 689
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:19 am

For the newbies, I think it would be nice if a current flight crew member would point out the differences between "jumpseats." I am aware, but could you give a good explanation between "cabin, cockpit jump or observers, etc." I know the old DC-9's had a fold down "jump" seat between and aft of the right and left seats. Rode one from ADL/SYD back in the dark ages. Thanks, gang.
 
Jkw777
Topic Author
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:15 pm

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:21 am

Ah good idea.

Even if I can't ride "jump" seat, then a chat with the pilot at the end of my flight wouldn't go a miss  Smile

Regards,

Justin  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
jkw6210@btopenworld.com or +447751242989
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:39 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:18 am

TBear815:

Let's see if this helps.  Smile

Flight attendant jump seats are those padded fold down shelves with seat belt and shoulder harness that flight attendants occupy for take-off and landing. In the U.S., F/As are required to sit on those seats for taxi, take-off, and landing. They may be up and about during taxi to perform a safety related duty -- delivering drinks is not a safety related duty. Many airplanes have more of these seats than the plane usually has flight attendants. For example, the 733/4s have jump seats for four F/As, but the craft is normally staffed with three. As a general rule, a flight attendant who works for that airline can ride on that jump seat if the flight is full. There are rules that go with this as to mode of dress, display of ID, and certain behaviors. For example, a F/A riding the F/A jump seat may not consume alcoholic beverages. Nor may she ride that jump seat if she has been drinking or is otherwise intoxicated.

The cockpit jump seat is often little better than a fold down shelf right inside the cockpit door. However, the 76s, for example, have two "jump seats." These jump seats are essentially full blown pilot seats. There is good reason for the two. On flights of longer than 8 hours, a flight flown by a U.S. carrier must have, by FAA regulation, a Captain, a First Officer, and an International Relief Officer (IRO). This makes it possible for all three pilots to be in the cockpit and still have an FAA inspector or check airman from the airline giving a check ride. On 76s operating domestically, the 76 operates with 2 pilots and it would be possible to have a pilot riding jump seat and an FAA inspector in the cockpit at the same time giving a check ride.

Sometimes one of the two jump seats seats in the cockpit will be called an "Observer" seat. The other will be called the Jump Seat. This is to differentiate which seat an inspector or check airman would sit in and which one a run of the mill jump seat rider would sit in. Of course, if there is no inspector or other priority jump seat rider, both of the seats could be occupied by off duty pilots. They often are.

TBear, the DC-9s, 727s, and F-100s all have a flight attendant jump seat all the way in the back of the plane. On the 72s, it's attached to that big "vault" door that's back there. On the 9s, it's attached to a door or large hatch. On the F-100s, it's attached to a weight bearing bulkhead (wall). On all of these airplanes it is directly at the end of the aisle, almost between the last rows of seats. On all of these airplanes, it's a double jump seat (designed for two flight attendants). On the F-100s, it's also between the two lavatory doors.

The flight attendant jump seats are not obvious items, and passengers walk right by the retracted jump seats when they board and deplane. In fact, they are so unnoticeable that lots of people think flight attendants stand up for take off and landing. These seats are spring loaded and retract rather rapidly when there is no weight on them. Years ago a slang term for them was "Fanny Slappers" because if you don't move fast enough they slap your fanny when you get up.

The flight attendant jump seats are evenly distributed throughout the cabin depending on the size and model of the airplane.

In the U.S., no one other than designated people may occupy those F/A jump seats. This is normally limited to flight attendants working the flight and a flight attendant riding jump seat on her own time. It is not a free for all where anyone who sees it may sit on it. This is also as per FAA regulation. A flight attendant supervisor giving an observation ride may sit on that jump seat if she is a qualified flight attendant. If she is not, she must occupy a passenger seat.

Those FAA regs have a double enforcement with them: the flight attendant is personally required to enforce them. The airline is required by FAA regs to also require the F/A to enforce them.

I hope this gives some information. Any more questions -- just ask.  Smile
 
flyinggizmo
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:51 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:20 am

In the US, dispatchers can ride the jumpseat almost anytime they need(or wish) to on their own carriers. Going on another carrier is a bit different, as it depends on agreements between the airlines flight ops departments. For example, I can jumpseat on my own carrier, and I CAN ride on UAL, but only if a seat is available in the back. The same goes for SWA and DAL. American does not allow jumpseaters to be dispatchers from other carriers - period. I believe Continental is the same way. Northwest does, but it is tough sometimes.

Dispatchers need to do a annual jumpseat ride up front to maintain currency per the FAR's. I use the jumpseat routinely for commuting to work as well(about once a week) and as long as it is on my own carrier or another one if a seat is open, nobody seems to have a problem with it.
 
User avatar
Crosswind
Posts: 2536
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 4:34 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:32 am

Jkw777,
It is not possible to get a jumpseat ride on a UK-registered aircraft unless you fall into some very restrictive categories, as legally defined by the CAA, which basically includes pilots, engineers, and some employee groups on duty travel of the operating airline, CAA inspectors and ATCOs for familiarisation.

If you do not fall into one of these categories, you need approval from the board of directors of the airline, who then have to apply to the UK CAA for dispensation. Chances of an airline doing that are pretty much zero.

Most other countries have recently adopted similar laws...

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:39 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:33 am

Flyinggizmo:

Airlines have a lot of rules about dispatchers. Almost all of them can ride on their own carriers at will.

No one has a problem with dispatchers as it is known and understood that they have to ride jump seat once a year to keep their qualifications. A dispatcher would have a priority if he were doing his yearly ride. And.....there are dispatchers who only ride once a year.

Piedmont had one who only rode once a year because he suffered from air sickness. That ride was an ordeal for him. Poor baby.
 
Jkw777
Topic Author
Posts: 4427
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:15 pm

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:34 am

Thanks for the information Crosswind  Wink/being sarcastic

Best Regards,

Justin  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
jkw6210@btopenworld.com or +447751242989
 
SWAFA30
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:57 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:40 am

For the newbies, I think it would be nice if a current flight crew member would point out the differences between "jumpseats." I am aware, but could you give a good explanation between "cabin, cockpit jump or observers, etc." I know the old DC-9's had a fold down "jump" seat between and aft of the right and left seats. Rode one from ADL/SYD back in the dark ages. Thanks, gang.


Okay, I'll take a stab at it.

At Southwest our 737s have 8 total crewmember seats. The Capt and F/O seats in the cockpit plus 2 jumpseats. In the cabin there are 2 spring loaded fold down jumpseats. Each jumpseat can seat 2 flight attendants. Since we work in groups of 3, we have 1 extra spot on the jumpseat. So we can take up to 3 "observers" . 2 in the cockpit and 1 in the cabin on the F/A seat. Only SWA employees are allowed to use the F/A jumpseat. Only "online" or SWA pilots are allowed to sit in the cockpit as jumpseaters. Now, other airline or "offline" pilots are allowed to sign up and travel as jumpseaters but only as long as we have room in the cabin. If the cabin fills up if they are not SWA pilots they can't go . It is not really jumpseating it is just a reciprocal professional courtesy whereby SWA allows other pilots to travel for free and their airlines do the same for our pilots. Offline pilots board with an A, B, or C boarding pass like anyone else would. They just have a jumpseat form stapled to their boarding pass instead of a ticket.

The type and placement of a jumpseat depends n the aircraft model in question. I have jumpseated on the 737, 757, 727, 747, and DC-8. On the 747 the "jumpseat" was actually a seat in the upper deck of a converted UPS 747. It was just like riding in the seat in the cabin of any airliner. Again, the 737 has 2 jumpseats. One just behind the captain's seat and another that folds down from the large fuse panel just to the right as you enter the cockpit. The occupant of that seat is sitting right in front of the panel that sits between the captain and F/Os seats. I am a little foggy on the 727. I remember sitting in the seat just behind the captain. The DC-8 was a little different. I was in a seat that was just inside and to the right as you entered the A/C left entry door but before you actually came to the cockpit. The jumpseat on the 757 if I remember is similar to the jumpseat I sit on now as a flight attendant. It folds down from the wall and you just strap in. I jumpseated all the time when I worked for UPS. You could book your jumpseats up to 2 weeks in advance and if the flight was long enough they would even feed you. When I flew from ONT to HNL the engineer on our DC-8 even made us all a hot meal. I always thought all airline employees had the same privileges. Wrong. I got one cockpit ride after flight attendant training when I came to Southwest and they have even done away with that program.

My jumpseating experiences were a complete blast. You have not really flown until you see things from the pilot's perspective.
 
flyinggizmo
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:51 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:41 am

PiedmontGirl,

I didn't say anyone had a problem with the jumpseat. I said that the other carriers do not always allow dispatchers from other carriers to occupy the jumpseat or even an available seat in the back. American is the most obvious example of this. In addition, a dispatcher CAN be knocked off the j/s even on the yearly ride - it happened to me this year. A FAM or SSA can do it, in my case it was a SSA. Their priority is higher at all times.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7797
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:55 am

It's my understanding that Dispatchers can jumpseat in the cockpit only with their own company and only during their yearly required FAR FAM ride. Flight attendants are not approved to cockpit jump seat pre the FAR's, they are not listed as 'Flight Crew Members' in the FAR.....Which is the requirement in the FAR. Mechanics can j/s, but only when required to 'Observe' flight operations. Back when I was working as a mechanic for an airline and if I needed to get some where on company business I'd either just ask the crew if I could, or I'd call dispatch and get listed as 'must ride'. 99% of the time I'd get the seat as it gave the crew an added fwd balance arm and they could take more bags.

[Edited 2003-12-26 23:56:21]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:39 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:56 am

Crosswind:

It is not possible to get a jumpseat ride on a UK-registered aircraft unless you fall into some very restrictive categories, as legally defined by the CAA, which basically includes pilots, engineers, and some employee groups on duty travel of the operating airline, CAA inspectors and ATCOs for familiarisation.

If you do not fall into one of these categories, you need approval from the board of directors of the airline, who then have to apply to the UK CAA for dispensation. Chances of an airline doing that are pretty much zero.

Most other countries have recently adopted similar laws...


Thank you ever so much.  Smile


 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:35 am

To end this discussion for our American friends:

FAR § 125.315 Admission to flight deck
(a) No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an airplane unless the person admitted is -
(1) A crewmember
(2) An FAA inspector or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board who is performing official duties; or
(3)Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command

(b)No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for use of this person in the passenger compartment, except -
(1) An FAA inspector or an authorized representative of the Administrator or National Transpost Safety Board who is checking or observing flight operations; or
(2) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate.

This is from the edition of 2002. There might have been changes. Also airlines are free to impose stricter rules.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
tbear815
Posts: 689
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:49 am

To all of you who answered -

I, for one, truly appreciate your cooperation and if one newbie now understands this issue (and it is complex), we have all succeeded in some way. I have "jumpseated" or "jumpsat" in the pit on DC-9's, DC-8's, and 747's and, as SWAFA30 says, it was a total blast. A fully loaded pig 8 (DC-8-63) taking off from SJU is literally thrilling. That bird takes up a lot of runway and those palm trees come up fast! Ah, how cheap thrills make airline people mist up! Happy New Year to you all and healthy, SAFE flying!
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7797
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:56 am

To end this discussion for our American friends:

FAR § 125.315 Admission to flight deck
(a) No person may admit any person to the flight deck........


US airlines do not fly under FAR Part 125..........US Airlines are Part 121, and FAR 121.547 covers admission to the flight deck. Sorry, I tried to cut and paste the text, but the FAA web site was acting up.....
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Guest

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:30 am

Through internship/work study programs at several airlines, they are permitted to ride jumpseat, some airlines more liberal than others with the privilege.... however, such programs are extremely competitive and selective.... university students in aviation programs with at least a commercial license are allowed and must submit to the same background check with FBI as a new hire crew member.... and then of course it is at the discretion of the flight's crew....
 
gocaps16
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2000 9:14 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:59 am

Yes, mechanics are allowed fly jumpseat for troubleshoot. With my job, we are also flight engineers at times.

I flew jumpseat about a month ago from San Diego, North Island to Virginia Beach Oceana on a military charter flight coming home from the boat. I was seated next to the wing and once after departure I told one of the flight crews to request to fly in the jumpseat. He went to the cockpit and notified the Commander who was flying the Boeing 737-700 or a C-40A Clipper. While we were cruising at FL370, I was granted for the jumpseat access thru the commander. So, the commander and I had a really nice chat in the flight deck while I was in the Jumpseat. Unfortunalty, our flight left North Isand at 9:15pm local and we arrived in VA at 4am so I couldn't get any chance for photography.

I will be flying on a C-9B or perhaps another C-40A in early and late March. So, hopefully I'll get more opportunity.

Kevin
 
A340Spotter
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:52 am

RE: Asking For A Jump Seat Ride?

Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:13 am

Flyinggizmo,

As a dispatcher with Continental, as long as your airline is listed in our approved carrier list, you are welcome to come jumpseat with us (of course with a seat open in the back)...From what we keep getting told, American is soon going to change their ops manual to include other airline dispatchers as they know they are the only ones (for the most part) not taking us. It was part of their last contract agreement.

And I agree with whomever made the comment, a dispatcher can ride up front on their own airline (or subsidiary where approved) as he/she so chooses as long as the Captain is okay with it. We may have the ability and approval, but it is still his/her airplane.

Hmmm, maybe I'll go jumpseat to LRD or LCH tomorrow to add another city.

"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AirFiero, alphonze, Baidu [Spider], karungguni, nu, qfvhoqa, rhuns, RickNRoll, SamYeager2016, sassiciai, smi0006 and 156 guests