mandala499
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Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:43 am

Now, this is a one in a million chance... and if it happened in the US, the 727 would have crashed.

A few days ago a colleague who flies for one of the local airlines here told me not to fly his airline's 727s... His reasons went as follows....

Last week in Manado/WAMM, there was cloud and poor visibility from 8000 down to 1000 ft. Due to the poor visibility, approaches to the airport was made through ILS runway 18 or VOR/DME runway 36, instead of the usual dual NDB approach for 36 (which requires an 80 degree left turn on finals).

According to my friend, the 727 opted to come in from the south for a VOR/DME 36. It meant commencing the approach 14NM from the airport, leaving the holding point at 6000ft, to join the long finals at 4700ft... With terrain sometimes more than 2000ft high on the initial approach.

The 727 descended straight to 2000ft early in order to try and go visual. Stuck in cloud with terrain concerns, the crew stayed at 2000ft instead of descending to the MDA (925ft). However, they then turned the plane to the right (East or North East), where there are 6550ft and 2500ft peaks about 5NM from the centerline.

A passenger who is an off duty pilot ran the cockpit and to his horror found that the crew were disoriented and lost situation awareness. Looking at the RMI, the passenger realised that the aircraft was heading to one of the peaks and convinced the Captain to climb to the west and try again.

The crew for the 727 were expats (as part of the wet lease) and had never flown into Manado in bad weather conditions. However, the actions the crew took was very dangerous.

Manado/WAMM is not exactly an easy airport to fly into. Runway 18/36 is surrounded by terrain on 3 sides. The South West being the only entry/exit without terrain problems.

Now, was the passenger/off duty pilot right? This in my opinion is one of those cases where an unlocked cockpit door saved many lives...

The airline has hushed the incident now and not even the locals from the airline know what the company is doing about this...

Any comments?

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:46 am

Well, that's one isolated incident... hardly enough to make a case that everyone should be allowed unfettered access to the pit. I suspect that there are more than enough morons who "think" that they can give fantastic advice to the pit crew to make up for this situation.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:48 am

Exaclty. Security fixes many problems, but also causes a few... Ever taken the time to think that maybe the yahoo trying to get into the cockpit could possibly NOT be a terrorist?



CanadainNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
mandala499
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:49 am

I'm not saying access to the cockpit should be opened up... I'm just trying to say... DAMN THEY WERE LUCKY !!!!

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
PiedmontGirl
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:51 am

This is not going to make anyone with two brain cells to bang together think the cockpit door should be left open for anyone to wander in an out.

If the pilots flying the plane didn't know where they were, how did a pilot sitting in the back know where the airplane was? Please.
 
mas a330
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:36 am

Perhaps the pilot sitting in the back was more familiar with the terrain?
 
suspen
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:51 am

Guys, Mandala499 wasn't saying cockpit doors should be left open. I'm sure he's hella smarter than that. :P It's just a unique incident and should be treated as such. Everyone on that flight was very lucky.

The passenger didn't know exactly where the plane was, he just realized they were going in the wrong direction. If he were familiar with the area it's not inconceivable that he recognized which approach they were trying, and that they shouldn't have made that big turn.
Tower: "Cessna xxxx, state your intentions", Cessna: "To become airline pilot"
 
mandala499
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:50 pm

MAS_A330 got it right I think... the "Passenger" is an F28 Captain who's been flying in and out of Manado throughout his 20 year career, while the 727 pilots haven't since they're foreign contracted crew. Anyways...

Suspen... Thanks... I am NOT saying cockpits should be free access for everyone... thanks for clarifying that Big grin

OK... here's an update I got...

Nothing about the 727 pilots yet. The passenger who intervened was a F28 pilot of the same airline positioning to Manado. That's probably why the cabin crew did not do anything when he rushed to the flight deck, they probably recognized him.

More details on what happened.

The passenger assumed that from Tondano VOR the aircraft would head to about 340 and to MD NDB and then perform the dual NDB approach for runway 36 (Leave MD at 078 to PN NDB and then make 80 degree left to runway 36)...

The passenger was sitting on the left window. After the aircraft made a right turn to about 080 and descending rapidly to 2000ft, the passenger did not recognize the terrain (should have been low land, sea and a 2100ft peak, but with poor visibility he just didn't see the sea nor the city of Manado which he should be flying over.)

The passenger ran to the flight deck and asked the pilots... "Where are we?"

"We don't know!" was the answer.

He looked at the RMI and realised the aircraft was not going towards the airport...

Now it does sound far fetched, but do have a look at the following charts...

VORDME36...


NDB Circling 36...


Manado Airport...


I got a map from somewhere else, and was described the events by someone who flew as an F/O for the "passenger" on tuesday...

Red Line: VOR/DME 36 and NDB 36 Circling paths.
Green Line: What the "passenger" thought the aircraft was doing after TDO VOR... until he realised what happened.
Purple Line: The path of the aircraft, post TDO position is based on the description...



So what do you guys think? Should these guys be fired? Was the F28 Captain correct in intervening? Unfortunately, I can't say the airline, but given the types, you guys can guess who it is.

Unfortunately in Indonesia, most of these incidents are hushed up... everyone has a skeleton in the closet... even foreign airlines (incl SQ) and the CAA! Only now the government is beginning to investigate (watch out Lion Air!) abnormalities...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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solnabo
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:07 pm

Let the 727´s burn in Mojave!!
Too old to trot......

Michael/SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
clipperno1
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:13 pm

Excuse me, I'm not a pilot but a few questions come into my mind (Please excuse all un-professionalism):

-What was the ATC doing at them time, knowing of terrains surrounding the approach and probably seeing 727 of path?

- Would the weather conditions described above fall under CAT III conditions?
Is the particular 727 or the airport capable of running CAT III ops?
"I really don't know one plane from the other. To me they are just marginal costs with wings."� Alfred Kahn, 1977
 
mandala499
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:47 pm

No Radar at Manado.
It was overcast/undercast or broken >6/8ths for 1000 - 8000...

We don't have anything above CatII here Big grin So, no CatIII, the ILS for Manado is ILS18 and CAT I only.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
zak
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 10:13 pm

"Was the F28 Captain correct in intervening?"
he saved his own life and that of others, after all that cant be too wrong :P
interesting approach indeed, good that the pilot intervened otherwise it the code WAMM would have fit the approach.
10=2
 
lymanm
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:11 pm

I am utterly confused by a few things in this scenario. First of all, why would this passenger/F28 driver expect the 727 to fly from TDO direct to the NDB and *immediately* start the approach? There is a hold to enter the approach, where one has to fly at least 3/4 the way around the hold. Going from a 340-350 degree heading *directly* into the Final Approach Course of 78 degrees would require a VERY steep, sudden right bank and is not prescribed in the approach. A 90 degree Final Approach Course entry is difficult enough for a Cessna approaching at 90KIAS, let alone a 727 at 150+.

Secondly, I find it highly unlikely that any crew qualified to fly a 727 anywhere would suddenly lose track of what approach they were conducting. There is no similarity between the VOR and the NDB approach. There is no NDB on the Final Approach Course on the step down, it's all done by NDB. Why would the crew a) have the MD/PN NDBs tuned in and b) suddenly/randomly decided to follow it, or where they "thought" it was?

Finally, you say it was "It was overcast/undercast or broken >6/8ths for 1000 - 8000...". I know nothing about Indonesia and the weather reporting system they have, but I find it incredible they are able to measure the tops of clouds! They only have this information in North American via pilot reports, and by no means are they frequently done or temporally accurate. The 1000 ft base, I can live with, but if it was broken 6/8, then presumably they'd be able to have somewhat of an idea where they were...and that they were heading for a mountain, not an airport! The whole point about mentioning the tops is that the crew would have had no difficulty seeing the mountain in question if the cloud layer topped off well below the mountain peak (6000ft+).

Regarding the issue of the F28 pilot storming into the flight deck - perhaps the most unprofessional thing to do by a non revving crew EVER. He does not have the benefit of situational awareness, as he has no instruments. One cannot navigate from a passenger seat in the clouds. What if he thought the crew was performing the NDB approach, and madly ran to tell them to turn left to intercept the Final Approach Course, only to find that they were safely following the straight in VOR approach? In that case, he could have KILLED the crew if they'd listened to him - they would have hit that 2000ft mini mountain just NE of the field or others.

This story just isn't plausible in my mind. Factors I'm considering: that this information is 3rd hand to you and that the local Indonesian F28 driver has an axe to grind with expat crews "stealing" his flying, and as a result is fabricating/embelishing stories to jeopardize their safety record. Check the facts (or in this case, the reliability of the facts) before you spew out uninformed rhetoric.
buhh bye
 
174thfwff
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 12:22 am

"Now, this is a one in a million chance... and if it happened in the US, the 727 would have crashed."

Care to tell us why it would have crashed in America but not in some third world nation?

-174thfwff
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
tsentsan
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 12:58 am

"Now, this is a one in a million chance... and if it happened in the US, the 727 would have crashed."

Care to tell us why it would have crashed in America but not in some third world nation?


I guess its cos the flight deck door would be locked, and they wouldnt open it in any situation, and the chances of it crashing would be more than probable.
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hmmmm...
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 1:20 am

A fictional I-have-a-friend-that-told-me-this-story. A little bit too polished. And the pertinent maps, a nice touch, makes the story a pre-packaged item, ready to go. Nice try.

An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
britmex
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:11 am

Hmmmmm:

Interesting post but I`m still wondering. If the pilots were lost or felt they were losing situational awareness couldnt they been vectored? I was taught in flight school that it is better to ask for help rather than get killed. So far nobody is perfect and I have never seen a controller having fun with lost pilots. They have always been helpful with me, specially during my first solos.

cheers!

britmex
Aeromexico, la linea aerea que va para arriba
 
mandala499
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:50 am

Britmex...
No radar at Manado... so if they asked for help ATC would ask for their bearing and distance from a beacon...
------
"Hmmmm.."...
No this is not a pre-packaged thing. The skepticism one gets from "I have a friend that told me this story" is understandable, but if I have the charts for the airport and a travel map to accompany the description, it doesn't mean that I made it up or that this is a prepackaged fictional story!

I just took the charts I have and photographed them and posted it up hoping those reading it would have a picture of the terrain, regardless of whether they believe the incident or not. I posted this mainly to ask whether the F28 driver was right or wrong in intervening.
------
Lymann,
Confused? So am I.
I missed a line... The F28 driver expected the 727 would go to a VOR/DME 36 approach... or proceed from the TDO VOR to MD NDB... TDO is the common point for the Standard Arrivals into Manado. If one is going for the NDB 36 Circling, one would go to TDO VOR first and then go to MD and enter a holding pattern there... there's no Radar in Manado, so they have to do it that way.

I don't have the luxury of making fancy graphics to draw in the lines the aircraft would have taken... I'm sorry for my basic line slapping skills!

As to your second point, it is unlikely that the 727 was going to go for the dual NDB approach... The F28 driver thought the aircraft would be doing that, or do the VOR/DME straight in... so when the aircraft banked right, something was wrong. There is no reason for the aircraft to make the right turn... Anyways, I've sat on the right hand seat, next to someone who has 10,000hrs flight time on one approach and he suddenly lost his situational awareness. Fortunately, he decided to go for a miss and start again. There have been cases where crews have lost situational awareness and went into terrain. CFITs still happens unfortunately.

Regarding the weather, the ceiling was a guess given by the F28 driver, not from meteorological report. And yes, it was a guess... I wasn't there, so I'm just passing what was said to me.

The F28 driver storming into the flight deck? Well, what you said was the whole point in me putting this incident up... Thank you... you answered my question.

As to the local vs. expat thing, well, airlines here have failed to get locals to want to fly the 727. Most people here don't want to move to a type whose end of useful life is in sight. Besides, the foreign crew are under an ACMI deal for the aircraft... it's not a case of the airline hiring them instead of locals... the truth is, there are very few local 727 pilots, that they're with another airline that has a few of them. This airline only has ONE 727. That other airline has trouble getting people to move to the 727, mainly because here, airlines are reluctant to pay for type ratings, so most pilots are reluctant to go on the 727 out of their own pockets! (and also to go back to be current on their previous type, out of their own pockets again)... That's how it works over here unfortunately...
----

To be honest, if the 727 did end up heading for a mountain, I think the F28 driver was jumpseating the ride!

On a lighter note...
A 90 degree Final Approach Course entry is difficult enough for a Cessna approaching at 90KIAS, let alone a 727 at 150+.

How about the 80 degree left turn onto the runway? Something to experience or avoid? Big grin

Mandala499

[Edited 2003-12-27 19:53:23]
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
ual747den
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:08 am

No sorry, this would have not happened in America. Our pilots are trained and would not simply loose track of a mountain! So this guy just ran up and opened the door and nobody did anything and the door wasn't even locked? That is not a plane that I want to be on. What is to stop a terrorist? What is to stop a little kid playing around! NOTHING Your friend must have a good imagine and for you to try to put an anti American spin on it you made yourself sound like you know nothing...
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
mandala499
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:20 am

UAL747DEN,
Sorry but I have to laugh this off.
1. Pilots are ALL trained not to loose track of where they're at... but unfortunately, it happens.  Sad
2. In what way is this an anti-American thread?
3. Did I say locking the cockpit door was wrong? I suggest you don't fly on a Cessna402, Twin Otter, or any small prop without a cockpit door/wall then. Big grin
4. Welcome to airliners.net Big grin Lighten up!

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
ual747den
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:34 am

Mandala499
No it doesn't! A pilot should NEVER have to depend on a passenger to save the aircraft from running into a mountain! In most countries this would never happen, passengers are not allowed to just run into the pit and tell the pilot what he or she needs to do. I don't know of any pilot that would ever follow the directions of a passenger that just stormed the pit! This story is crazy and hopefully untrue.
Thank you for the welcome, and I don't need to lighten up im not stressing over this I just don't want anyone to think that this is something that could happen on their flight. A pilot doesn't take orders from some irate passenger a pilot is a highly trained and confident person that you can trust you to get you to wherever you are going to safely.
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
B747-437B
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:41 am

a pilot is a highly trained and confident person that you can trust you to get you to wherever you are going to safely

Dude, you really need to do some travel in third world countries! Heck, even a flight or two on some questionable North American carriers would have sufficed.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
RMenon
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:49 am

No sorry, this would have not happened in America. Our pilots are trained and would not simply loose track of a mountain!

Riiiight - so the crew of American Airlines 965 in Cali Colombia 1995 were Indonesian???
http://aviation-safety.net/database/1995/951220-1.htm
 
mandala499
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:57 am

UAL744DEN...
1. The "passenger" was a Captain with better familiarity with Manado and from the same airline. So it's not just any passenger. And he was not irate at the time.

2.No sorry, this would have not happened in America. Our pilots are trained and would not simply loose track of a mountain!

2.a How about something similar... try American Airlines in Cali in 1995... "The aircraft crashed into terrain after the crew became disoriented while on approach to Cali. Contributing to the accident was the fact that after the activation of the GPWS, the crew applied full power and pitched up, but failed to retract the speedbrakes." Pilots of all countries ARE trained not screw up, but we're all humans.
2.b Now, I hope I do not have to resort to mentioning the nationalities of the 3 flight crew of the 727 involved...

----

Dude, you really need to do some travel in third world countries! Heck, even a flight or two on some questionable North American carriers would have sufficed.

Yeah, like TOWER AIR Big grin *Sorry, just can't resist!*

Mandala499
PS. NO, this is NOT an Anti-American thread.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
mandala499
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:00 am

Damn ! RMENON beat me to it!

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
mandala499
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:17 am

He wasn't irate... he was very worried when he intervened. Irate? Maybe after landing...

Anyways, Safe Flying & Happy Landings ! Big grin

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Guest

RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:13 am

Just about anybody who flies regularly into an airport with just one approach gets to know what it should feel like.... I would expect especially a pilot for that carrier into that airport in Indo who knows the turns, the timing, the length and timing of descent, et cetera.... I believe some people are a bit quick to jump on.....
 
EK345
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:33 am

If my wife can't go shopping in nice stores she wont let me go so we stick to the more normal parts of the world!

Damn! That is quite a strong statement there! I am sad to hear that I am originally not from a "normal" part of the world. Cheers to my abnormality. a$$*%^e.

EK345
"and miles to go before I sleep..."
 
Coronado990
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:00 am

If my wife can't go shopping in nice stores she wont let me go so we stick to the more normal parts of the world!

Now that's lacking situational awareness!
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
spk
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:31 am

Thai Airways lost an A310 in KTM in a situation very familiar to this one. So, yes, even the qualified crew flying on a fairly modern aircraft can lose situational awareness and cause CFIT.
 
AAR90
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:37 am

While anything is possible, the story as retold above sounds like either a highly embelished retelling of a relatively minor incident or an outright fabrication. Either way it is nearly devoid of credibility.

...the 727 opted to come in from the south for a VOR/DME 36.

No explanation why the professional pilots would opt for a non-precision approach rather than a precision approach in low visibility conditions.

The 727 descended straight to 2000ft early in order to try and go visual.

No explanation of why 2000 feet is selected. None of the approaches have a 2000 foot altitude published. Why would any instrument pilot chose to fly at an unpublished altitude if flying a published instrument approach?

Stuck in cloud with terrain concerns, the crew stayed at 2000ft instead of descending to the MDA (925ft).

One flys an instrument approach in order to descend to a point where a landing can be made. No explanation of why a professional crew would remain in the clouds instead of descending per the published procedure.

Interesting that this "friend" now knows what the crew's "concerns" were when supposedly nobody but the working pilots is in the cockpit.

However, they then turned the plane to the right (East or North East), where there are 6550ft and 2500ft peaks about 5NM from the centerline.

Another deviation from published instrument procedures without any explanation. The only right turn on either procedure is the holding pattern descent, yet supposedly three professional crewmembers agree to turn right? [intentionally deviate from published procedures in high terrain & poor wx conditions?]

A passenger who is an off duty pilot ran the cockpit and to his horror found that the crew were disoriented and lost situation awareness.

Hmmm, he "ran"??? He "found" the crew disoriented and without SA??? And he had SA because he was looking out his passenger at..... clouds???

Looking at the RMI, the passenger realised that the aircraft was heading to one of the peaks and convinced the Captain to climb to the west and try again.

One look at the RMI and he was able to convince the Captain he (the Captain) should do whatever he says? Was he in uniform? Even if so, did the Captain know him previously? Why would any pilot just do whatever a pax entering the cockpit unexpectedly tell him to do? If the Captain was so "disoriented" or without SA, why did neither the Captain nor the FO initiate a missed approach --the proper (and trained to do) action when flying a published instrument approach? The story expects one to believe these pilots did not follow any basic instrument procedures let alone the specifics of a published instrument approach.

The crew for the 727 were expats (as part of the wet lease) and had never flown into Manado in bad weather conditions.

So what, they were supposedly flying a published instrument approach which provides all the information they need.

However, the actions the crew took was very dangerous.

Only if this story, as told, is true.
Again, anything is possible, but the crew in this story sounds so incredibly inept that they would not have gotten airborne let alone close enough to a destination to attempt to fly their own made-up approach in poor wx conditions.

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
scxmechanic
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Sun Dec 28, 2003 12:25 pm

I've flown into WAMM before and thats no place to be fooling around. The volcanos around there are very scary! Landing on 36 you get a good view of a massive one on final... I wouldn't wanna be in the soup and not knowing where I was at that airport, thats for damn sure!

The local ATC doesn't speak good English neither does Ujung pandang who we talked to on the HF entering the FIR until handing us off to MNO.

Once while flying into WAMM, ATC had us hold 10 DME South of MNO VOR at 8000 ft. due to outbound traffic (no radar) and after one circuit in the hold, they cleared us for the approach. Let me tell you.. It was like no other ride I have ever been on!

This was in a B727-200F that was empty. Flaps 40 and everything hanging out, we dropped like a load of bricks.. The GPWS was sounding till seconds before touchdown.. Not something I would wanna do again.. I have it all on video to boot..

The guys on the ramp thought we were all dead.. They even said something about they were gonna call for the Crash Truck because it didn't look like we were gonna make it..

Anyone else fly into MNO regularly?

Boy I sure miss Bir Bintang! Man that stuff is good!!! Wish I could get it here in the US!
 
mandala499
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RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:30 am

Now... I just found out today, Manado VORDME36 is no longer valid. So the 727 pilots was not going to perform that approach. Foolish as it may seem, it appears they wanted to go down to be visual and then go for straight in visual 36. Not something to do in Manado. Don't ask me why, I'm waiting for a copy of the incident report! Sounds like there were something very wrong with ALL the pilots mentioned.

AAR90 came up with very good questions on this incident, but since the pilots did not have a VORDME36 approach charts. What baffles me is if this happened, why the hell did it happen...

Everyone has come up with good questions and I've discussed it with the "passenger"'s copilot of the 23rd. It appears that this was a pure fluke. The "passenger" actually panicked and that's why he went to the flight deck! His actions are wrong. The 727 pilots are also wrong. There was no way that he could have realized beyond doubt that something was wrong in the timeframe given.

That F28 pilot is a strange character. He is not popular amongst the F/Os because he is not willing to trust his F/Os to do their job... People like this still exist, and companies who employ these kinds of people still exist, and also, unfortunately, there are still companies that hire those 727 pilots...

Back to the F28 pilot, he had been based in Manado before flying Twin Otters, Casa212s, F27s and moved to Jakarta for the F28, where he's been stuck on it since (probably something to do with his character). He was worried that something was wrong, and ran to the cockpit... by his sheer luck, something was wrong, otherwise he'd have lost his wings as he left the 727.

Anyway, this airline is in trouble, filled with jokers, corrupt staff, the whole lot... including some very bad pilots! This is an airline that put up a restructuring plan to the parliament asking for funding to lease 734/735 and ATRs, plus a couple of million bucks to move their headquarter to Ujung Pandang... The parliament literally laughed at the directors of this company, and when a 727 arrived for this airline, the parliament was outraged and suspended any further aid to this company.

If someone mentions this to me this incident happened on another airline, I wouldn't believe it. But this airline is so dismal, that nothing surprises me anymore about this company... Dismal... how dismal? out of 30+ years of existence, it has only made a profit for 3 years, and that was in the 70s!

I'm asking for the incident report to be leaked out, and I am eager to find out what happened in a more credible manner... I will share this with you all if I ever get my hands on it. My friend doesn't care since he's waiting for acceptance at another airline... he's also had enough with this employer... (About bloody time!) Somehow I'm hoping that both the 727 crew and the F28 pilot will get disciplinary action.

SCXmechanic,
Bintangs? Come to WIII/CGK or WIIH/HLP and I'll bring some for you! BTW, you got that WAMM approach on Vid? Can I have a copy ? Big grin Now, Garuda sends DC10s and sometimes A330s...

Yes WAMM is NOT a place to fool around. Route Qualifications required, and I wonder why some don't require it... It's hard to get people to understand what the place is like unless they at least see a map of it.

UAL747DEN:
When I say a third world country I mean a country that would not be represented on Anet.

Well, I'm in and from a third world country but I have internet access, so which one of your categories do I go into? Big grin

OK, let's change the subject to: crazed off duty pilot saves jetliner!!

Seasons Greetings All...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:50 pm

OK guys, I got the copy of the F28 driver's report to the airline. Here's a translation.
------
Date: 18 December 2003
Name & ID: Capt. YCL/80****
Position: Captain
Route: CGK-UPG-MDC
Flight Date: 12 December 2003
Flight No/STD: **780/0545Local.

1. Aircraft departed 1H10 late. Operations normal apart from delay. (ed. Flight crew woke up late because they were delayed the previous day on a flight on a different airline they also fly on as part of their ACMI deals)

2. CGK-UPG, all normal apart from delay.

3. UPG-MDC. T/O UPG all normal. Crz FL290. I sad on the rear of the cabin on right hand side. +/- 20 mins before arrival in MDC, aircraft descended.

I did not know the exact position of the aircraft at the time. The weather was thick cloud above Manado Area +/- 10.000 (15 minutes), I was concerned because I could not any terrain on the right hand side. I went across to the left hand side and saw the expected terrain on the left hand side. I rushed to the flight deck without any delay or notification. I saw the flight instruments and the Captain had instructed to maintain 2000ft, and the aircraft went below 1800ft from time to time. It appears that the cockpit crew had lost their coordination.

I asked "Captain, where are you going?" The captain just lifted his hands, I concluded that they had lost their position.

From here I decided to occupy a cockpit seat to guide them. On the left side I saw "Air Madidi" and it would be impossible to tell them to turn left direct MD because we were only at 2000ft. I asked them to maintain heading 360, then 330, then 270 and then 240 until abeam of Runway 18.

When we saw runway 18, I asked them to turn right (circling on final) to intercept the ILS R/W 18, but the copilot decided otherwise because he was concerned that he would loose visual with the runway. He forced the aircraft to turn left onto the runway. Finally the aircraft landed in MDC safely.

4. This is the report I have made as true to the events as possible and I am ready to face any actions required for my accountability.

5. For Capt. EK (Head of Flight Crew Operations), please take note on this event for our safety.

Capt. YCL.
------

If I can resconstruct the flight path, I reckon it would look like this...



So weather condition was in and out of cloud (no further details available), and the F28 driver's positioning was based on visual cues as they became available from time to time.

So with this update, what do you guys think?

Since ILS36 or VORDME36 is no longer operational, my guess is he was planning to go to MD and hold, from there either go for dual NDB 36 circling or proceed to ILS18. However, as you can see from the GUESS I made based on the F28 pilot's report, it wouldn't surprise me that the 727 crew couldn't really effectively pick up MD, MNO or TDO as he had descended below the terrain obstruction between them and the beacons.

Another guess is that they expected to pick up MNO... and proceed on MNO 006 (or thereabouts) inbound, and go in ILS 18 from the sea, but this is just my guess, it still doesn't explain why the aircraft went down to 2000. Had the aircraft been on path, the majority of the landmass should be on the left side of the aircraft, with some terrain visible on the right. That was the only way for th F28 pilot to realize something was not right.

However, it looks more like this is a case of bad CRM leading to loss of situational awareness than anything else...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:16 pm

Loss of situational awareness can also happen at well built oout airports with a modern A/C:
At the airport I work on there was an incident a few years ago. It never made it to the newspapers, and I´m not going to tell the namne of the airline or the aircraft type because it might be considered as break of confidence and I might loose my job. You have to take my word for it, but I was there when it happened, it would have quite possibly killed me.

At CGN there is an airport road running between the two runways 14L/32R and 14R/32L, about 2000 m to the west with all the cargo facilities and ATC control tower on it. directly south of ATC is the fire station , then two sheds for winter equipment and then the maintenance building and spare parts store of the airline I work for and where I was in when it happened.

Situation: Nighttime, low ceiling ( less than 3000 ft, drizzle)
The pilot tried to make an ILS approach on 14L.
As I´ve heard later from my supervisor, who received that plane that night, and who was ordered to appear at the hearing, the captain, who was flying the approach completely lost orientation and after he got out of the cloeds confused the lighted airport road with the runway. Additionaly he came in at a very steep angle of descent. This was also confirmed by another colleague who was just on the airport road and thought the plane was coming directly at him.
The F/O who was doing the radio work noticed that his necktie was sticking out at an unusual angle, looked out of the window, said "Oh, sh#t!" , pulled the control column back and initiated a go around. During this go around they exceeded the max flap extension speed by over 100 kts.
They did a second approach and landed the plane. On arrival the captain lied to my supervisor about the flap speed exceedence, he said it was less than 10 kts, so all we did was just a good walkaround inspection as stated by the AMM chapter 5.
The planestillwent out on another commercial flight this night. Next day we received the order to pull the FDR to send it to airline safety. At the same time the plane was grounded. Since I´m more or lessour station´sstructure man I was told to do a complete inspection of the flaps and slats together with the supervisor, removing all the flap track fairings. We actually found as small fuel leak around one attachment, the company hired some tank tigers to investigate it from inside of the tank. It was considered to be within limits by engineering. Later the plane wasflown back to the airline´s home country for a further inspection in a hangar.
There was a hearing following this incident.
The captain lost his licence and got fired, not for f*cking up an approach, but mostly for lying to the mechanic. The F/O who saved the situation tried to cover up for his captain at first, but when told that he might loose his job as well, he told what happened inside the cockpit.
Out of the reconstruction from the FDR they missed the control tower by about 50 metres. If the F/O wouldn´t have reacted they would have hit the tower about 2 seconds later, crashed into a parcel sorting hub with about 1000 people working in at this time, cartwheeled into the fire station, taking it out through the sheds right into the building I was in during this incident.


Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:33 am

OK guys, I got the copy of the F28 driver's report to the airline.

If you did not get it from the airline, you have what the F28 driver "claims" to have reported.

1. Aircraft departed 1H10 late. Operations normal apart from delay. (ed. Flight crew woke up late because they were delayed the previous day on a flight on a different airline they also fly on as part of their ACMI deals)

How does this pax know why the crew was late? Or if they were actually "late" instead of being "rescheduled" for a later time?

3. UPG-MDC. T/O UPG all normal. Crz FL290.

He must be something special if he can tell the cruise altitude from his...

I sad on the rear of the cabin on right hand side.... seat in the back of the cabin.

I did not know the exact position of the aircraft at the time. The weather was thick cloud above Manado Area +/- 10.000 (15 minutes), I was concerned because I could not any terrain on the right hand side. I went across to the left hand side and saw the expected terrain on the left hand side. I rushed to the flight deck without any delay or notification.

He did not know his exact position, yet he saw "expected terrain."
Flying in "thick cloud" yet he not only saw something, he saw what he expected to see.
After seeing what he expected to see, he rushed to cockpit?

I saw the flight instruments and the Captain had instructed to maintain 2000ft, and the aircraft went below 1800ft from time to time. It appears that the cockpit crew had lost their coordination.

How does this pax, having just entered the cockpit, know what the Captain had previously ["had" is past tense] instructed? What does he base his "lost their coordination" comment upon? A pilot unable to maintain within 200 feet of an assigned altitude has lost his individual coordination, but not the entire crew [not based upon one pilot's flying ability].

I asked "Captain, where are you going?" The captain just lifted his hands, I concluded that they had lost their position.

Gee, no introduction? No questioning of who this intruder was? Just answer the question of whomever enters the cockpit unannounced? And doing so while at low altitude in high terrain? The Captain, FO and FE had nothing better to do at that time? Previously it was reported the CA answered verbally. Stories are getting further apart in accuracy.

From here I decided to occupy a cockpit seat to guide them. On the left side I saw "Air Madidi" and it would be impossible to tell them to turn left direct MD because we were only at 2000ft. I asked them to maintain heading 360, then 330, then 270 and then 240 until abeam of Runway 18.

Hmmm, are they flying visually at this point? Or are they flying instruments? Remember, this is the bloke who said it was "thick cloud."

When we saw runway 18...

Hmmm, must not be such poor visibility as previously stated:

there was cloud and poor visibility from 8000 down to 1000 ft. Due to the poor visibility, approaches to the airport was made through ILS runway 18 or VOR/DME runway 36,

Since all this is being restated well after the fact, one must question the validity/accuracy of the original version as compared to the latest [third] version.

So weather condition was in and out of cloud (no further details available), and the F28 driver's positioning was based on visual cues as they became available from time to time.

Nobody suggested simply climbing to a safe altitude and starting the process all over... using the available ILS? Such a simple answer.

So with this update, what do you guys think?

The more different versions of the same story you receive, the less validity they maintain.

Since ILS36 or VORDME36 is no longer operational, my guess is he was planning to go to MD and hold, from there either go for dual NDB 36 circling or proceed to ILS18. However, as you can see from the GUESS I made based on the F28 pilot's report, it wouldn't surprise me that the 727 crew couldn't really effectively pick up MD, MNO or TDO as he had descended below the terrain obstruction between them and the beacons.

According to your "friend" the 727 crew was more inept than even his original version:
-the 727 crew chose to fly a non-existent non-precision approach over a published precision approach that was in use at the time...
-the 727 crew was not flying on the approach they chose --nor any published or unpublished instrument approach route or altitude...
-the 727 crew leveled off at an altitude not published on any instrument approach...
-the 727 [copilot] was not able to maintain within 200 feet of that altitude...
-the 727 crew hands over all navigation duties to an unknown passenger [without asking a single question]...
-727 crew [and himself] never attempt to climb to a safe altitude and initiate a proper instrument approach [in instrument conditions?]...

However; the F28 pilot is an exceptional individual:
-the F28 pilot saw "expected terrain" when he claims he did not know where they were...
-the F28 pilot saw "expected terrain" when he should have been well inside clouds [according to his own weather description]...
-the F28 pilot rushed to the cockpit even after seeing the "expected terrain" [knowing they were "lost"???]...
-the F28 pilot directs the 727 around high terrain at low altitude [presumably below the "thick cloud" cover]...
-the F28 pilot knew better than to "force" a left turn in a 727 onto final approach course better than the entire 727 crew...

And the list goes on... and on... and on...

However, it looks more like this is a case of bad CRM leading to loss of situational awareness than anything else...

Without corroborating evidence it looks like a case of very bad storytelling. The more versions told, the less credible the story teller and his story. How about providing some concrete evidence this actually occurred. A single report filed by any crewmember of the 727 would be nice. There should be something since they were so screwed up in the cockpit and a pax in the back of the cabin "rushed" into the cockpit unannounced. Or proof the airline is investigating the incident? Perhaps a suspension letter -what airline does not suspend pilots during an investigation of their flying capabilities? To me, it looks like someone is "pulling your leg."

AAR90
ex-USN aviation mishap investigator
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
GARUDAROD
Posts: 1136
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 4:39 am

RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:01 am


Could it be that the "Terrain" the Captain expected to see on the right side
of the aircraft was what he saw on the left side, hence the rush to the
cockpit? This would indicate the plane was flying the opposite direction
they should have been. You cant tell me at a pilot who has flown into
an airport for 20yrs wouldnt recognize landmarks at the drop of a hat and
would realize that something was amiss. Granted the rushing to the
cockpit and subsequent action are not standard, but if gut instinct told the
F28 Captain something was terribly wrong, then trying to lend a hand
may not be so wrong. Dont forget this is a translation from Bahasa.
Are you fluent in Bahasa? We are looking at a Foreign crew operating
on an ACMI basis in an area they are not familiar with. To me this is a
recipe for disaster and fortunately it only evolved into a possible
stretching of the facts...
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:59 am

AAR90:
1. Note the "(ed. ...)" which means I got this not from within the translation.

2. How does he know the Cruise Altitude? How about a P/A announcement... "Ladies and gentlemen, we're now... bla bla bla"

3. Bad translation by me. The descent to TDO should have terrain on both sides, with a larger land mass to the left than to the right. However, what he saw was just the sea on the right.

4. Don't shoot the messenger mate. I'm just translating what he wrote.

5. Don't ask me how he thinks crew coordination broke down. I wasn't there.

6. With regards to #1 and how the flightcrew know the F28 driver, ever thought of the F28 driver entering the flight deck during the transit in UPG?

7. The first version of this event came from someone who flew with the F28 driver on the 23rd of Dec. I pursued this story further with him out of interest because thanks to the people here, we tried to find further flaws in the original version. Today, I received a copy of the fax that was sent back from the airline's flight crew division, which I translated.

8. Condition of thick cloud here would normally be broken cloud. The common term used here are "in and out of cloud."

9. When we saw runway 18
If you see the my guess on the path taken, the cloud conditions due to the terrain by the time they reach the north side of the landmass could possibly be very different from the time where the F28 guy first entered the cockpit.

10. Nobody suggested simply climbing to a safe altitude and starting the process all over... using the available ILS? Such a simple answer.

Of course that's the logical answer. Something which You and I would do.

11. According to your "friend" the 727 crew was more inept than even his original version:
However; the F28 pilot is an exceptional individual:


I do not have the facts on what the 727 crew chose for their approach procedure.

-the 727 crew hands over all navigation duties to an unknown passenger [without asking a single question]...

Read point #6 and he might not be an unknown to the 727 crew by the time the events occured.

Regarding the F28 pilot saw "expected terrain"... read point #3.

-the F28 pilot knew better than to "force" a left turn in a 727 onto final approach course better than the entire 727 crew...

Well, that shows that the F28 pilot is not such an exceptional individual character afterall... The 727 made the turn, and landed...

What makes you think I am defending the F28 pilot here? He's already looking at misconduct here! From the version of the F28 pilot here, he panicked. Simple.

I do look forward to finding out whether an investigation will be carried out or not. Yes, more proof would be good for all of us. An investigation report would go even further. However, in the meantime, this is all I got. I'm sorry if this has wasted your and my time, perhaps I jumped the gun and should have waited until at least the F28 pilot's version instead of giving new versions each time. This was not meant to be an attempt to discredit foreign crew vs. local crew. I've known very good crew flying here both foreign and local.

However, the regulatory environment here is nothing like the US. Crazier things here have happened. I've been in a situation where crew have lost situational awareness and have to rely on an onboard survey IRS which is not certified for aircraft navigation. Yes we got away with it, but it's something I had strong words with the Operations Department of the operator with, for which their answer was disappointingly "you can go and use someone else's aircraft then if you're not happy with ours." I've seen a survey log with a line containing "pilot got lost" in it. It's something very discomforting, the good thing was, that time the pilot was changed.

------

GARUDAROD,
You picked up my translating mistake. Thank you. I had not known until recently that the 727 crew came under the ACMI deal. This is something many here have resisted for the reasons you stated. However, this country of mine needs a long way to go for both local and foreign pilots fly here without any of the gung-ho nature that's been eliminated in other countries... they're a falling minority here, but unfortunately, they still exist.

Happy Holidays/Flying/Landings...

Mandala499
Yes, I've lost situational awareness before!
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:07 am

What makes you think I am defending the F28 pilot here?

Nothing. I never said you were.

Yes, more proof would be good for all of us. An investigation report would go even further. However, in the meantime, this is all I got.

Simply not enough to go on at the moment. Multiple, different, conflicting versions of the same viewpoint don't provide good perspective as to what might have actually happened.

I'm sorry if this has wasted your and my time,

Not to worry, its my time to waste. [holidays and all]  Nuts

...perhaps I jumped the gun and should have waited until at least the F28 pilot's version instead of giving new versions each time.

I suspect so, especially in such a public forum. Perhaps waiting for evidence from a different source?! One of the first things one learns in NPGS' Safety program is that human "eyewitnesses" are usually the least accurate source of information about an aviation mishap/incident. My 8 years investigating aircraft mishaps/incidents supports that position. Can't recall the number of "eyewitnesses" that told me they saw the crash "on the other side of the hill." If something actually happened, the truth is probably something significantly less than the F28 pilot claims and significantly more than the 727 CA would claim [if asked]. If the airline had its act together it would have pulled the FDR/CVR tapes as a minimum.

Yes, I've lost situational awareness before!

What honest pilot hasn't at some point in his career.  Wink/being sarcastic


*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
GARUDAROD
Posts: 1136
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 4:39 am

RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:35 pm


Mandala499,

I wasnt trying to criticize you mate. I know what the mentality is like
among Managment sorts in Indo. I spent 11yrs working for GA and
know full well the underhanded tactics and self-serving prophecies certain
people like to inflict on others. We must have had a different management
philosophy every year I was there. I could tell you stories about
corruption but then, you are in the country, so you know what I mean.

I really appreciate the spin you give to all matters Indo related.
Let us know if the above incident ever gets "Official" investigation.

Happy New Year to all and may peace prevail wherever you may be.
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:16 pm

Mandala, you just won't give up on this one, will you. I can tell it's a story by your dramatic narration, alone. And since you are not that eloquent or dramatic by your own tongue, that dramatic narration must have come from some other source. Since you were not there when such event was purported to have occurred, how then can you supply the narration as if you were?

I think someone told you this story verbatim, you believed it, then you felt compelled to share the drama with airliners.net not realizing how implausible it was, nor how theatrically contrived it now appears.



P.S. On airliners.net believe just 1/4 what you read, and only 1/2 of what you see.

Happy New Year to all.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
bahadir
Posts: 1287
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: Pax Saves Jetliner!

Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:46 pm

Very very interesting reading.. Thanks for sharing this with us Mandala.
As far as "This would never happen in N. America" crowd, get over it. We are all human.. (N. Americans too)  Smile
Someone pointed out the Calis crash.. How about the NW DC10 that landed in BRU thinking that it was FRA. ??

I will try to sim these approaches when I get home..
Earthbound misfit I