ORDagent
Topic Author
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:24 am

328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:01 am

I love the looks of the 328J! It was really unusual and had a load that the other RJ's could not match at that time. Why did the A/C die on the vine as well as Dornier?
 
learjet25
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:51 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:18 am

I know one of the reasons is that it was significantly slower than the other jets, and I believe that it did not match the takeoff performance of the others. I am not positive but I believe that those are two reasons. Also, I don't think it carried as many pax as the other jets.
 
MYT332
Posts: 7283
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:31 pm

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:25 am

I remember seeing it at Farnborough once, impressed me a lot. Climbed like a rocket and was very quiet. Shame its dead.

-
Alex
One Life, Live it.
 
BeltwayBandit
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:25 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:25 am

The bankruptcy of the manufacturer put the future of the type in doubt, which crushed the order book. It may rebound somewhat, but as indicated above, there are better performing aircraft available.
 
learjet25
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:51 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:35 am

Well at an airshow they will have minimum fuel and no pax...so it had better climb like a rocket!
 
rockyracoon
Posts: 1010
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:58 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:40 am

THey still climb like rockets when full, I see them all the time at cvg.


peace
 
learjet25
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:51 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:46 am

Well, I guess we all have differing opinions of exactly what a rocket climbs like. That's ok.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:49 am

ACA's dispatch reliability on the 328Jet has been 10% poorer than their other planes, and its the worst reliability of any plane in the DCI banner.

N
 
MYT332
Posts: 7283
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:31 pm

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:54 am

Learjet25,

If we're talking about Apollo1, it doesn't climb.
If were talking about The Challenger, it climbs good for a bit.
If were talking about say, The Endeavor, its climbs dam good.

I was referring to the Endeavor type. (Does that make sense??? lol)
One Life, Live it.
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:00 am

I've been on one from TOL-CVG, fully loaded and we took off like a scrambled fighter jet, I was smiling from ear to ear on the climbout. Nice little plane - I imagine that it would be better utilized by an airline that needs an aircraft for short field operations.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
learjet25
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:51 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:33 am

I'm sorry, I am talking about a climb at MGTOW, not necessarily with a full cabin, but absolutely the max t/o weight. I know that it probably climbed well, but I know people who fly them and, I have flown on them. Not really the most impressive for me. My friends say that they are almost dogs when they are heavy. Not fully doglike, but not that great either. This is all I will say, but I'm used to climbing more like 4-8,000 fpm. So I guess my perspective is slightly skewed. Also, I don't think that Dornier cruises at anything above .68 or something in that range. I'm done now. I will not reply to this post again, to save everyone from me annoying them, or is it too late?
 
baw2198
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:20 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:07 am

I've had the pleasure of working a few of these over the last year doing charter work in and out of KALO. They climb out (at least this one did, privately owned) at about 3500- 4500ft. a min. But filed speed on cruise was only 378kts. I think that they were the slowest of the RJ's on the market but one of the best for payloading and short field T/O.
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:12 am

They were cool, but they were a derivative of a failed aircraft, the 328, which didn`t live up to it`s performance promises. Also the 328 was so bad the launch customer gave the entire fleet back. Not a good sign! Add to that the capacity of 36- 37 pax, and whats the point?
 
boo25
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:03 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:55 am

I think its an ugly little b***er! Looks like a Bae146 gone wrong!

I was intriguied though how in its development it was 'upgraded' from a prop with all the associated systems development and fuselage/pressurisation angle?!!

 
xjramper
Posts: 2318
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:10 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:46 am

Im not sure if its the same company, but is this the same as the Envoy?

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
B2707SST
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:25 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:35 am

Yes, the Envoy 3 is the bizjet version of the 328JET.

The 328 isn't quite dead yet - the new owner, AvCraft, is working on restarting production, although some assemblies may be transferred to eastern Europe to cut costs. AvCraft is also mulling completing development of the 428JET stretch, which Fairchild-Dornier halted several years ago - apparently the cancellation penalties helped drive it into insolvency.

The 328JET is a neat little aircraft, and although it's not as fast as larger RJs, its short-field performance beats any other airliner's. I'd like to fly one sometime, but they're mostly deployed on ACA's east-coast runs.



Latest news (Dec. 15):

AVCRAFT PRESIDENT SAYS 328JET PRODUCTION TO START SOON

The new owner of the Dornier 328JET - AvCraft Aviation - predicts restarting production of regional aircraft in the "near term" now that it's sold all but one plane of the 18 white-tails the company acquired when it bought rights to type and production certificates of the smallest jet produced by defunct airframer Fairchild Dornier.

AvCraft President Ben Bartel told reporters Thursday in Washington, D.C., his company could build about 54 planes per year in two factory shifts and 70 using three shifts. He contends building 200 aircraft would make the 328JET program "viable."

Suppliers also have begun building 328JET spares and production parts. Bartel estimated the value of 328JET spares at $ 120-$ 140 million and production parts "north of" $ 100 million.

Citing contract obligations, Bartel couldn't identify operators who have committed to the combined 45 orders and options AvCraft has logged for the 328JET, but noted his company hasn't garnered firm orders from new airlines. Data from aircraft tracker Airclaims show Air Vallee, Gandalf, Great Plains, Hainan, Midwest, Tyrolean and Welcome Air fly 328s. Air Omega, based in Augsburg, Germany, ordered two planes in May.

AvCraft continues to hammer out some service issues with the 328JET, including problems with the plane's electrical systems. Bartel did note shortcomings in the 328JET's range and speed, but said on trips of a "thousand-plus" miles it's about eight minutes behind the Embraer ERJ-135, adding the 328JET had the "volume of a Gulfstream."

Bartel was in Washington to announce a deal with BAE Regional Aircraft for spares, storage, distribution and logistics covering 328JETs and 328 turboprops in North, Central and South America.

AvCraft plans to house $ 150 million in spares at BAE Regional Aircraft's Herndon, Va., facility, starting with two shipments this month. BAE Regional Aircraft Senior Vice President of Customer Support David Speirs said AvCraft's spares would use about 30 percent of the company's existing space in Herndon.

In a second stage of the agreement, AvCraft will route customer orders through to BAE in Herndon for shipment. Later, BAE and 328JET customers will communicate directly for orders and shipping.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
Spacepope
Posts: 3153
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:40 am

I am in agreement with B2707SST here. The 428Jet fiasco with Skyway/Midwest Express (at the time) did absolutely nothing to help the company out. It could even be argued that potential customers became wary of Fai-Dor because of the ordeal, further hurting the 328Jet and any family that may have resulted.

T.J.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 3924
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:00 pm

The 328JET did not fail, not as the Do 328-100 did. That the two launch customer withdrew was not much Dornier´s fault: a) one went bankrupt and b) the second merged into an airline which had a 50-seat RJ requirement which the 328JET couldn´t fulfill.

What really hurt the 328JET was the 428JET disaster which costed endless money and even more requtation. Many airlines were at that time thinking about ordering the 428JET, including Air Wisconsin, often in tandem with the 328JET. However the cancellation made the328JET as a stand-alone unattractive.

The 328JET is not dead as the article shows, it is currently merely stopped and pre-production is already back on track with suppliers having restarted their part production. It takes sometime until these parts will all be in Oberpfaffenhofen and final assembly can restart.

What the article doesn´t not is, that not all white-tails have been sold to airline customers but are Envoy 3s as well. Out of these 17 sold white-tails 8 have gone to Hainan Airlines, which leaves 9, and one has been sold to Aero-Dienst, making it 8 left which are undisclosed.

The 428JET could be restarted if enough customer interest has been expressed and when a launch order has been placed. However I don´t see this at the moment.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
ORDagent
Topic Author
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:24 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:15 am

Thanks for the input folks. This takeover by another company scares me. Does anybody remeber adamaircraft?
 
baw2198
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:20 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 5:02 am

ORDagent


Adam aircraft: what happened? I know they designed the a500 piston and then came out with the 700 which was the jet powered derivitive. Did they go bankrupt?

Baw2198
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
pilotntrng
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:13 pm

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 5:12 am

hey ORD,


I have to disagree with ya on the load factor on the 328 jet. The Do 328 and the jet version cannot hold that much at all. With a heavy fuel load and close to max pax, the cargo hold has to be thinned out significantly. Granted the t/o performance of the 328 jet is very impressive, I think it was doomed to fail due to the popularity of the ERJ's and CRJ's.
Booooo Lois, Yaaaa Beer!!!
 
BeltwayBandit
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:25 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 7:50 am

Adam Aircraft is doing fine. Great management and great products. They are coming out with a twin-boom tail twin-jet, and push-pull prop.
 
SRD737NG
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:45 pm

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:31 am

Flying-Tiger-

I believe you may mean Atlantic Coast Airlines, not Air Wisconsin when it comes to the Dornier Jet orders. ACA already had 30 of the airplanes flying on the Delta side, and had taken delivery of 2 of an ordered 30 more to replace the Jetstream 41's on the United side when they went belly up. ACA hadn't ordered the 428 yet, but they were very interested in it up until the program ended. I never heard or read anywhere that Air Whisky was going to order any 328 or 428 Jets.

The 328 Jet is a hell of a climber, even at MGTOW. It will outclimb any other RJ out there today, but then have to wave at the CRJ's and ERJ's as they cruise by them enroute. The Dornier is also a very comfortable ride for pax. As a 6 foot guy, this airplane fits me way better than the CRJ or the ERJ 135-145. I hope the new owners are successful with the production of this aircraft, it is perfect for those smaller, underserved communities on the east coast where a 50 seater may be too much.
 
B2707SST
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:25 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 10:52 am

According to Flug Revue, ACA actually ordered 30 428JETs, along with 25 328JETs and 55 options for either aircraft, on 13 July 1999. An additional 30 328/428 options were taken on 9 September of that year.

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FR428JET.htm

The loss of the 428JET left its younger sibling an orphan and caused major damage to Fairchild-Dornier's credibility, in addition to huge fees and penalties from airlines and contractors. I think the 528/728/928 program might have been more successful had the 428JET flown, as confidence in the company would have increased instead of plummeting. If the 728 had flown last summer as scheduled, it could have been a leading contender for the Star order (Lufthansa CityLine had already signed for 60 + 60, GECAS had ordered 50 and announced a LOI for 100 more).

Another major factor in FaiDor's failure was its allegedly terrible customer service. The 328JET's dispatch reliability problems have already been mentioned, and I have heard that Horizon got rid of its very young 328 turboprop fleet because they were tired of poor support from Dornier. Hopefully AvCraft (and Fairchild-D'Long, if the 728 program survives) will be able to resolve these issues.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
SuperDash
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:52 pm

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:54 pm

Problem number one with the plane is that it costs about 50% more to operate than the prop version. It doesn't come with any more seats, so that's money right out of the operator's hide. The 328Prop costs as much to operate as a Dash 8-200, but has 5-7 fewer seats. It is slow. The Q400's cruise speed is just shy of the 328Jet, but it's costs are way more competitive. 30-37 seat jets don't work well since they are high cost and really don't have any profit seats. I would be surprised if Delta says they can make money even to the network (let alone the local market) with the 328s. Even as a prop, I found the 328 to be terrible. I won't miss it. Long live the Dash 8.
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 3924
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 3:41 pm

No, I actually meant Air Whiskey - they were supposed to be in talks for a sizeable number of 328/428JET to replace the Dornier 328 turboprops and to add capacity at the smaller end for UA´s hub operations. However this deal fell through as the Avro RJX order did.

Air Wisconsin's initial CRJ200s, to be delivered from the end of the year, will be configured as standard 50-seaters. The carrier has the option of switching to a 40- or a44-seat layout should it choose to replace its 23 smaller 328 turboprops with the CRJs. Trading the turboprops in for 328JETs is another option.

This comes from an older Flight International article and speciafically hints the44-seat layout -the exact number of seats for the 428JET. Even though not mentioned in here it gives you the connection for the 328JET and Air Whiskey.

The ACA order was as B2707SST mentioned - FD´s launch order for the 428JET. At the same time Air A!ps signed for 3 428JET as well but cancelled this order a lot earlier as they ran into financial difficulties. However nowadays there are coming back into the picture as a potential 328JET operator.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
wilcharl
Posts: 1153
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:19 am

RE: 328Jet Why Did It Fail?

Thu Jan 01, 2004 4:14 pm

Guys...

any confirmation on the rumor that there is poor support from pratt on the engines as for getting spares and parts and that when the engines are reaching overhaul there is limited support from pratt for parts resulting in delays???