azmd80
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Rumors from Airbus to launch a new program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:00 pm

Today I've red on JP4, an Italian aviation Magazine, That There are rumors from Airbus to launch a new program called A305, to replace A310 and A300.

What's about?
 
FlyingColours
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:14 pm

My Guess is it would be an A330 shortened to the half-way length of the A300 - A310. But at the minute I doubt they would bother building one. Take the rumors with a pinch of salt.

Phil
FlyingColours

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L-188
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:21 pm

So it will be another rehashing of a 1970's A300 airframe.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Skymonster
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:23 pm

So it will be another rehashing of a 1970's A300 airframe

Yeah, just like Boring (sorry, Boeing) have been rehashing 1960s 737 and 747 airframes for the last fifteen years or more!

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
L-188
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:26 pm

Ahhh Skymonster....You get my point  Big thumbs up
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
cloudy
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:40 pm

They are going to be occupied with the A380. Airbus does claim to be able to do two clean-sheet simulatneously. Also, The Pentagon here in the US claims to be able to fight two major regional war's simultaneously. In both cases, it may be MARGINALLY possible by using every resource, working people to death, and spending far more than can be really afforded. For all intents and purposes, the claim is just bluster. It can be done on paper, by the skin of one's teath. But it can't really be done in the real world - at least it can't be done in a way that does not invite disaster.
 
L-188
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:43 pm

Also, The Pentagon here in the US claims to be able to fight two major regional war's simultaneously. In both cases, it may be MARGINALLY possible by using every resource, working people to death, and spending far more than can be really afforded

The US used to be able to do that, then Clinton cut the military circa 1992.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:44 pm

If they were going to do one, it would be a direct replacement for the A300, who isn't the youngest bird around, ie. a type to do short high-density flights. And of course with a cockpit ala the A320 for even more commonality.

I guess we'll see once the A380 is flying.
 
Leskova
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:52 pm

Not sure how occupied the design/development teams at Airbus are still busy with the A380 - after all, it's already being built!

So while they might not be able to pour a lot of money into the project, they most likely will be working on this project - after all, this is definitely the area that Airbus needs to work on next.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
N6376M
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:44 pm

What market would the A305 compete in? Against what offering from Boeing would it be targeted?

 
Tom_EDDF
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:50 pm

I guess it will be targeted against the 7E7...
 
united4ever
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:53 pm

I know Airbus have a lot on their hands at the moment with the A380, but just how much development would the 'A305' take?

Surely most of the 'A305' would already be there from the A330 and the A300/10 - a bit like creating the A340NG?

Mike
 
Tom_EDDF
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:03 pm

First rumors about an upcoming A305 project have been around since at least a year, but apparently Airbus sees no real gap between the A321 and the A330-200 and perceives the 7E7 not as a product in the A300-600, but in the 757/767-300ER market segment.

http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/paris/paris_03/pd1airbuspg42.html
 
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Richard28
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:06 pm

The A380 is moving from paper (or should I say binary!) into metal in Toulouse right now.

With the lead times on design to construction, now would be about the right time to launch a new programme.

I'm taking it with a pinch of salt however  Smile

What kind of capacity would a A305 have, and would this not compete with the A321 - or would it be designed with more range?
 
steman
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A3

Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:17 pm

Boeing has just revealed that there will be a new variant of the 7E7 aimed at short/medium haul sectors, with shortened wingspan, lightened undercarriage and structure, range of about 6500Km.
It looks like a good replacement for hundreds of B767-200/300 and A310/300.
Airbus should better be ready to counter this threat from Boeing

Ciao

Stefano
 
Leskova
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:20 pm

I wouldn't see an A305 as competing with the A321 - the B757 and B767(-200) ran alongside each other for quite a while, and there's not really that much difference in capacity on these two.

It would simply be the adding of another choice - and I'd guess that the A305 would only in it's smallest version (replacement for A310) really be a possible competition for the A321.

But, then again, it'll be up to the airlines: the A321 will remain more interesting for those already operating the A320 family, whereas the A305 - should it become a reality - would probably be more interesting for those needing A300/A310/B767 replacements for shorter or medium routes.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
keesje
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 03, 2004 7:49 am

For a long time I´ve thought this is the most attractive market for Boeing.
Even when they were still dreaming Sonic cruiser. http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/773211

The market potential for an efficient short/medium range people mover are so much better then for another A332 ...

Via the very long haul SC and the long haul dreamliner to a reduced range version Boeing has finaly arrived where the airlines want it.

Took them a few years to adopt ..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
wingman
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:45 am

Not even mighty EADS can afford another project right now. They already have two separate $8-12B projects underway, the 380 and the A400M. The lion's share of the 380 bills come due in 2004 and 2005, just when we'll see the dollar go streaking past the 1.35-1.40 mark, the very mark Camus says will pose very significant fiscal challenges for the company. Even though European sharehiolders don't expect financial returns for 10-20 years, I'm pretty sure even they would be a little hesitant to allw EADS to push a thrid major project through. My guess is that Airbus will see moderate to substantial losses over the next few years as bills come in and the value of the dollar plummets. At that point we'll some real battles erupt between France SA and private institutional shareholders such as Deustche Bank over financial obligations to the shareholders.
 
gigneil
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:10 am

I think people are forgetting that different teams usher a plane through.

The A380 is being built. Not being designed. The design teams can now start working a new design, even a clean sheet one if they decide that's best for the A305.

Richard28 is right. Just about now is the right time to start working on it.

N
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:04 am

You guys underestimate the design effort required to complete an aircraft. I suspect that right now the design team is working with suppliers qualifying the various hardware that comprise the aircraft systems, then they will be busy making modifications as the certification phase gets under way.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A3

Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:32 pm

What if Airbus just shortened the A330, to a "-100" series? The production line is already in place, thus cutting costs.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:01 pm

Think of the A305 as essentially an A300B4-600R with an A330 tail, A330 cockpit, an all-new wing that is lighter and more aerodynamic, and more efficient jet engines.

Unfortunately, it probably won't fly until at least 2010, two years after the Boeing 7E7 enters service.
 
sllevin
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A3

Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:24 pm

I'd bet that an A305 would really be an A300-600 with a possibly slightly improved wing, systems, but most importantly, a common sidestick cockpit.

Not a massive development project. And it'll be an aircraft that doesn't require "jumbo" gates, which the 330's wing precludes.

Steve
 
miamix707
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:55 pm

Yeah, just like Boring (sorry, Boeing)...

aren't crew people supposed to say slightly more meaninful things? I'm not sure if I should laugh or what lol If anything I always understood and agree that Airbus would take the trophy anyday for the most boring models. They can stretch/shrink add big engines and all the winglets they want everytime I look at an airbus I still see basically a remodeled A320,A300.

Even the 380 resembles an A320 with 4 engine & 2 decks. Watch this A305 will look like another A320 or A330..
 
QantasA332
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:00 pm

I'm not sure if I should laugh or what lol...

Seems like you just solved that dilemma yourself...  Smile

qantasA332
 
rjpieces
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A3

Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:32 pm

MiamiX, no...This new Airbus plane would probably be the model for which ALL future Airbus planes will look like  Smile
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
azmd80
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Wed Jan 07, 2004 9:21 pm

Who can say that "Even the 380 resembles an A320 with 4 engine & 2 decks. Watch this A305 will look like another A320 or A330.."

O course the new A305 will be similar to A330 but it could be a rather new plane , not a shrinke version of 330
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Wed Jan 07, 2004 10:32 pm

Maybe the A380 design Engineers are now working on the A340-600 modifications  Smile This should keep them busy until the A380 modifications are required.

Just joking guys.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:20 am

What if Airbus just shortened the A330, to a "-100" series? The production line is already in place, thus cutting costs.

Airbus has already been there, proposed that, and failed at it.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gigneil
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:24 am

An A300NG might be the perfect ticket. New wings and some fundamental changes could make it quite successful.

Dunno if all the compositing that Boeing is doing would be needed for such a short-sighted project, but Airbus could easily take their engineering work from the A380 and expand on that for the 305.

N
 
azmd80
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:06 pm

I think there could be a large market for 305 or 300NG. In a previous topic, obout widebodies on shoth flight, it seems to me that many airlines use it.
B777 and A330 probably doesen't fit very well this market, becouse of performance that aren't needed on these route and the cost too high.

And I prefer by far flying on a 310 rather than on a 321 or 757 even if the pax number isn't very different.

Then I don't think that Airbus will miss the opportunity to compete on this market, when Boeing is working on a new 7E7 "short haul - high density" that will performm very well.
 
AApilot2b
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:41 am

Sorry AZMD80, but I think you were reading about a car built by Peugeot.  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Qb001
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:58 am

Very interesting; I guess Airbus is feeling some heat from the 7E7.

My very uninformed guess about this 305: the 310 body to tap into the 200 pax market (the 306 is too close to the 332), new wings, new engines, FBW and new avionics. It can't fail.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
gigneil
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:29 am

I agree that it can't fail.

Even if it falls short of the 7E7 by several percentage points in terms of relative efficiency, it should still sell well.

I also believe the 7E7 can't fail.

This is a huge segment of the market. There's more than enough room for both craft.

N
 
wingman
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:38 am

As I said above, it will be very difficult for Airbus to spend much money in the near term to compete against the 7E7. Rough times ahead, especially if the dollar gets to 1.35 and stays there for a prolonged period of time.

"http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/040109/transport_airbus_1.html"
 
AvObserver
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:59 am

The last two posts ignore one fundamental truth, assuming Airbus merely updates an existing fuselage. The high relative weight of the old design vs. the clean sheet, 50% composite airframe of the 7E7 might well result in the A305 falling short of the 7E7's efficiency by more than just a few percentage points. I don't believe Airbus would take this reoute unless there's a relatively simple way of replacing much of the existing alloy structure with composites, which I doubt. If this new A305 and longer-range Airbus models are to be long-term competition for the 7E7, they'll have to be at least largely new designs, as well. They can't wind up too much heavier than a 7E7 counterpart because the economics would suffer too much and Airbus would have to sell them at cut-rate, likely unprofitable prices. Perhaps, Airbus can start with an existing cross-section, which is sized about right but then build a basically new fuselage around it with close to the composites % Boeing is using. Similar changes can be made to the wings, tailplane and vertical stabilizer. Given the importance of this market segment, I don't buy that Airbus would address it half-assed with just a warmed over derivative, as it has often accused Boeing of doing. The A305, if that's what it will be called, will also be a largely, if not completely new airplane, as will its' longer-range cousin to succeed the A332.
 
KGAI
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:34 am

I wonder how Airbus would size the plane. Only A310 size? The market for that 1 size seems very limited.

Long range or just medium range like the A310?

Should Airbus stretch it to A300 size too? If so what range? The A300's range is too limited as it is, but increasing the range directly competes against A332. And then you have all sorts of problems. The A332 is the brightest spot in the A340/330 family, so if you replace the A332, what's going to happen to all the other versions?
 
bobrayner
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:39 am

I hate to spoil the discussion, but... what is the basis of this rumour?

http://news.google.com/news?q=A305
Your search - A305 - did not match any documents.
 Smile

If they had a serious new sales opportunity, Forgeard would surely shout it from the rooftops.
Cunning linguist
 
Qb001
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:12 am

The high relative weight of the old design vs. the clean sheet, 50% composite airframe of the 7E7 might well result in the A305 falling short of the 7E7's efficiency by more than just a few percentage points.

True. But Airbus has demonstrated in the past its ability to incorporate composite parts in an old design. The A-300-600 tail is fully composite, contrary to that of the older A-300B.

They could likely perform similar improvement to the 310 to turn it into the 305. And as said before, I don't believe Airbus goal is to match the 7E7 pound for pound. I think it's just a matter on being "there" and offer a viable alternative so to keep Boeing polite.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
azmd80
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:02 pm

KGAI

I think that A305 should be a family like A310 A300. Two PAX version will fill well the Gap between 321 and 332: there is enought space for this.

The A310-300 in my opinion is not a medium range, but a long range aircraft: for an European point of view it could easily fly from central Europe country (see CSA for Exemple) to Nort America East Coast.
It will be the rigt range also for europe - africa route and Europe - east route where 777 340 and 747 are too heavy and large.

Also A300 has decent range in 600 version (LH FRA JFK f.i).

of course nothing compared with 340, 777 or 747, but these range are only needed on pacific or far east route.

Bie
 
Ikarus
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:53 am

Why is this a "rumour" and why now?

Some senior Airbus designers on a recruitment presentation have mentioned the A305 about a year ago in my university, so I don't think it's terribly secret or such a recent development...

Aircraft manufacturers constantly have dozens of projects being investigated, dozens of feasibility studies undertaken, dozens of ideas buzzing about. The A305 is undoubtedly one of them, and perhaps among the more serious suggested developments (anyone remember the canarded Airbus design a few years ago?). Still, I'd be surprised if they were to launch anything this year. I could imagine a launch in early 2006 or so, though.

Regards

Ikarus
 
azmd80
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:16 am

Ikarus, I think that Airbus will start working hard on 305 project only after 380 first fligh, even if it could be to late agaist 7e7.
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A3

Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:23 am

AZMD80-- Ikarus, I think that Airbus will start working hard on 305 project only after 380 first fligh, even if it could be to late agaist 7e7.

Yeah that sounds about right to me-- now that Boeing is actually going ahead with the 7E7 I guess Airbus is just going to have some murmurings about an A300/310 replacement (or big-time upgrade), for marketing department purposes.

At least while they're going to be very busy the next year or so especially, getting the A380 into the air first.


Generally I think they'd be interested in building an "A305" even for strategic purposes (ie they have to be building something major that's new, every five to seven years or so, just to keep the ability to upgrade their A32X and A33X/A34X lines when those get old , say more than 25 years, and need upgrading and replacing themselves)


 
azmd80
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:38 pm

The main straetegic pourpouse is in my opinion not leave Boeing alone in a market sector.
Haw many words were spent when Boeing announce not to compete on A380 market: it was a great market failure.

 
SAS-A321
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:55 pm

I don't think that you can say that they are too busy with the A380 to work with a A305. If they want to create it they will. If they don't have enough people... they will get enough. In such a market there is no time for taking a break. You got to be in the first line to compete with other brands in today's aviation industry.

Just my 0.02 cents
It's Scandinavian
 
steph001
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A3

Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:20 pm

Really difficult to asses whether this rumor is true or not, maybe they are just checking the market and public opinion on that.

I would just like to add a fact and a question to this discussion: the A310 is also one on the few Airbusses used for military purposes (except the all-military A400M maybe? the only civilian Airbus frame used for military purposes, until the A330 based tankers for the RAF will be ready). As this plane is not a new one , I was just wondering whether some governments could also consider developing a replacement for the A300/310 for military purposes. What do you think/know about that?
 
azmd80
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RE: Rumors From Airbus To Launch A New Program: A305

Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:13 am

Steph001

No, I think that the effort of Airbus marketing are based on finding a new (militar) life for old 310 that have been grounded by the main airlines, as Boeing made on 767 (see ba 767).

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