Billy
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AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:21 pm

As predicted, AA has filed for transatlantic 757 services from BOS to MAN. Aircraft will be domestic configured, and domestic F seats will be sold to full Y and frequent flyers. Services start from April, I think. Not yet in the AA system, but slots are filed at MAN.
 
LHR001
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:33 pm

Oh dear the 757-ization of the North Atlantic continues!

Hopefully BMI will counteract with an A330 on the route!

Perhaps, Virgin will afford an A340 to Boston from Manchester!


Why has American chosen the 757 over the 767-200 it seems odd. And most of all the 767-200 affords travellers the oppurtunity to choose First, Business, or Economy Class. This will have to be played by ear! Didnt American Airlines flop a few years back on DFW-MAN?


LHR001
 
Billy
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:44 pm

LHR001.

Yes, a seasonal DFW failed. The JFK always struggled despite having the highest load factors on the Atlantic.

I think that a MIA service is under review for MAN for later in the year. This will obvioulsy be a 763.
 
Skymonster
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:23 pm

Hopefully BMI will counteract with an A330 on the route!

Doubt whether BMI will go into Boston - its not a good hub for Star Alliance. BMI's third A330 is in any case allocated to MOD flights from Brize Norton to Ascension Island and Mount Pleasant (Faulklands) until the spring, after which a BMI MAN-YYZ service is currently the favoured rumour.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
Billy
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:31 pm

Surely the BMI aircraft will need a reconfiguration? It is heavy on the biz cabin and premium economy. MAN-YYZ really does not need that config. I assume that AC would gracefully withdraw from the route?
 
flymeagain
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:47 pm

The BMI A-330 is going to be reconfigured after the MOD contract. Andy (sorry) Skymonster is quite correct though, YYZ is the most favorable route at the mo when the mod contract finishes, But, MIA has been blowing in the wind.
 
Skymonster
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:02 pm

OK, we're sort of off-subject a bit here, but I wish BMI would make its mind up what it is doing with trans-Atlantics and its 3rd A330 next summer. I'm currently trying to arrange some travel into the summer season, and being a gold carder as well as a former nine-year employee, I'd far rather support BMI than the other alternatives.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
David_itl
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:15 pm

Did AA reconfingure the 5 (or was it 6?) 757s that they used on the MAN-JFK run back in 1995? I've no objections to 757s across the pond - far better to try to maximise yields on a smaller aircraft with fewer premium seats to fill before progressing onto the "main" transatlantic aircraft. Anyway, MAN operations for most airlines should concentrate on 2 class configuration!

David
 
Billy
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:21 pm

The 75s AA ran back in '95 were regular domestic configured aircraft. For a short time AA ran a business ExtrAA product - a 'nearly' J class for high-spending Y pax.
 
Leskova
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:26 pm

If they're domestic configs, does that mean with or without MRTC? Are they already done reconfiguring the 757s to the higher density seating?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
conair
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:29 pm

If I remember rightly the American B757 service was to JFK in the summer of 1995, they only used about 6 different aircraft on the route and it was dropped at the end of the summer season. There have been rumours in the past as to both AA service to DAL & MIA but nothing has yet materialized. As david says the aircraft can be used to develop the market. remember Continental started with 757's on MAN-EWR and have used both DC10's and B777's since, are suposed to be going back to triples this summer. Having said that I remember going to MCO a good few years ago on a Monarch (Charter configured B757, well it was cheap) via BGR, a never to be repeated experiance.

Regard's
Conair
 
AAnalyst
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:39 pm

All 757's have ben reconfigured to LRTC :-(

I would like to know where Billy got his info though. There's nothing on any of the company websites about BOS-MAN. It really wouldn't surprise me if the service was a 767-300. All of AAs 767-200s are in 3-Class configuration, and mainly being used on 2 routes: LAX-JFK and SFO-JFK. The 757s that AA flies that are Overwater equipped are already stretched very thin with the extensive Haawaii routes.
Knowledge is Power. Power Corrupts. - Study Hard, Be Evil
 
Leskova
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:49 pm

Thanks, AAnalyst - I wasn't sure about that, although I was afraid that that would be the answer...

Anyhow, wouldn't even a 3-class 762 make more sense on this route? After all, if they're planning to sell the domestic-first-class seats as Y-full fare? Why not use a three class aircraft redesignated as "Economy/Coach", "Economy-Full-Fare" and "Business Class" config? This way they could still get some of the business traffic on this route, and even if it's not a lot (although I don't know if it isn't) it would still be some...

I can't really see any scheduled carrier opening a transatlantic flight with essentially an all-economy-seating (even if they have a separate, better, cabin for full-fare-payers) - or is any airline (scheduled, not charter) doing something like this already?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Billy
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:55 pm

Is it the case that an AA 757 carries marginally more pax than the 762? So the cost for AA would be fewer cabin crew but no significant cargo revenue.

I would also assume that the 757s are range-restricted, making the UK and Ireland the most suitable markets for the type and then only to the East Coast. Everything else would need to be wide-ride.
 
AA777MIA
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:59 pm

The 767-200's are used for the JFK LAX, JFK SFO markets... Using them out of BOS would throw a ripple in that system, and these are premium markets within the United States.... Highly doubt that they would be moved out of those markets...
 
Leskova
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:05 pm

AA777MIA, you're right, but do you think that a 757 without MRTC makes sense on this route? Or, for that much, that this route really makes sense for AA?

What, by the way, is AA's seating capacity on the 752, 762 and 763 (I'm quite certain that I've seen it on other threads on occasion, but I don't really know where that was)?

Billy, do the slots in MAN specifically mention AA flying 757s on that route? I'm just asking, because, to be honest, I do not have a single bit of an idea what information gets put into slot applications...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:10 pm

Even if American were to fly a 767-200 across the pond to MAN from BOS, it would most likely be configured in Business and Economy only. AA has removed First Class from a number of 767-300's flying to non-primary European routes (Brussels, Rome, etc....) and the 767-200 has not been flying to Europe since 2000 when service was standardized around the 767-300 and the 777.

And someone said that the JFK-MAN route had the highest load factors on the North Atlantic, I would say no. The highest load factors are probably on the LHR flights from JFK and EWR.

The JFK-MAN route operated from 1991 to 1993.

ContinentalEWR
 
MYT332
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:16 pm

Seating Capacity

B757-200 168/176
B767-200 158
B767-300 212

Go here for more info

[Edited 2004-01-02 14:18:14]
One Life, Live it.
 
Billy
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:17 pm

Leskova,
Airport slots indicate airline, aircraft type, destination, arrival/departure times at slot airport, as well as period of operation and whether the flight is a charter/cargo positioning etc. Fairly detailed info. Most US airports are not slot controlled. Most large European airports are slot controlled.

The AA flight was their highest load factor on the NA according to my knowledge. LHR-JFK is a busy route but they also have larger aircraft. Getting 95% loads on a 757 is much easier than on the MD-11 (as they were flying then). However, the MAN yield was also one of the lowest on the NA.
 
AA777MIA
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:19 pm

To be real honest, not sure why they would start this flight, but I would assume the logic is for holiday travelers.. If that were the case, then it goes with the logic of using the 757 is "leisure" markets, which is what the majority of the passengers would be. The LRTC config I believe is basically the same as UK aircraft, if I am not mistaken.. The 767-200's were left in 3 class config, so they could serve the Premium Market in the JFK, LAX, JFK, SFO markets.. To answer your question on capacity..

757-200's hold 22/166 in the LRTC confg... If there are any left MRTC 22/154
767-200's hold 9/30/119
767-300's hold 30/182 in 2 class config...
 
iflyatldl
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:46 am

It's seems like a trend is starting in using the 757 on North Trans Atlantic routes. Depending on the market, I can see MAN being ideal for the 757 and more so for AA because it would be a leisure market. CO has been using the 757 on CLE-LGW(can't remember if seasonal or year round), and it seems to work for them. Didn't TW at some point run 757's on some North Atlantic routes?
Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
 
dutchjet
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:56 am

I have no problem with the 757 operating transatlantic routes, its the right aircraft where demand is thin and/or yeilds are an issue, I have flown on CO 757s transatlantic many times without issue both in Business and Economy. However, I do think its odd that AA would use a domestic configured LRTC aircraft for the route and why would AA go with a BOS-MAN service - arent JFK-MAN (why did AA have problems with this route in the first place, one would think it be a huge money-maker) would make more sense, as would MIA-MAN to tie into the large AA hub.
 
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Crosswind
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:56 am

The JFK-MAN route operated from 1991 until 1995, but for the last couple of years it was seasonal.

The route's final season was summer 1995, when AA used the B757 for the first time head-to-head against the new Continental Newark service, also on the B757, and BA's usual B767.

While the Continental route was a success and was quickly upgraded to a DC-10 in 1996, AA threw in the towel after 5 years of trying...
 
UAORD
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:34 am

Why bother with a first class section on transatlantic flights on the 757? The layout and configuration is so weak compared to any widebody. The fare would have to be significantly less expensive to rationalize flying F on any 757.



 
tommy767
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:00 am

Smart thinking. That route doesn't need a 763/777. IMO, expand 757 Biz class by putting in new seats, and put new seats in Coach with the "Winged" headrests.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
AA7573E
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:29 am

I would like to see some documented proof of this. New service is typically well hyped by the AA marketing machine, and I have not seen anything regarding this new service. There is very little consistency with the US of 757s on Atlantic routes, when they are, as has been pointed out, spread thin on other highly profitable routes at this time. In point of fact it is a substantial departure from the post 9/11 strategy of route simplification accompanied by fleet stabilization. Until Billy puts up some proof, I would write this one off as conjecture.

See you up front!
 
airjampanam
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:37 am

I'm confused.. I thought the thread was meant to spark a discussion on the aircraft type being used between BOS and MAN?
A past topic has been the increased use of narrow bodies across the pond.
The domestic configuration leads one to believe there is no confidence in the proposed route.
Am I to understand that market between BOS and MAN is somewhat small or low yield?
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
aaway
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:21 am

"Am I to understand that market between BOS and MAN is somewhat small or low yield?"

With the exception of LHR, and some CDG and FRA routes, it's probably safe to say that most of the North Atlantic is realitively low yield. The LHR situation speaks for itself...slot controlled, with service limited to the carriers identified in Bermuda II.
The rest of the N. A. has suffered from the increasing fragmentation of the marketplace, as what were considered secondary airports/routes receive regular (if not multiple) services daily. This new MAN service would fit into that category.
If true, AA BOS - MAN would be quite a surprise as most of the scuttlebutt seemed to focus on potential new AA service BOS - FCO or MAD.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:30 am

No surprise here..I have wondered where AA was going to use all the LRTC 757's anyway, especially after the heavy winter/early spring travel to the caribbean...makes sense that some aircraft would be assigned to low yield (hopefully a net profit producer,even a small one is better than none) trans-Atlantic service.
 
iflyatldl
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:34 am

I think what's happening here is that AA is "testing the waters" so to speak. I totally get it. Why not utilize a medium capacity a/c on BOS-MAN and find out if there actually is a demand for that market, let alone a demand for Biz. Elite over conventional F class on the route. If so, simply upgrade the equipment. As much as we all like our wide-bodies, there is a mentality that if it's long-hall, it's GOT to be a widebody. And in many cases, that's just not the case. Maybe some of these "Legacy Carriers" are starting to wake up!  Big grin
Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
 
aaway
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:41 am

Tan flyr and Iflyatldl,
The "surprise" is that this is so unlike AA. Low yield Europe??? "Testing the waters"??? Historically has that been AA? That's the surprise!
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
iflyatldl
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:48 am

Aaway: I hear ya loud and clear!  Smile
Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
 
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STT757
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:55 am

AA's 767-200s are some of the oldest (if not the oldest) aircraft in AA's fleet, they will probably be phased out over the next 3-5 years.

Also AA's 767-200s have been relegated to JFK-SFO, LAX etc..

I doubt their 767-200s are ETOPS, or maintained to ETOPS standards. Im sure AA has lots of 757s certified for ETOPs operations because of their massive Latin America route network and ever expanding Hawaiian routes.

Also in the last fews years of operation TWA was operating 757s across the Atlantic too, so Im sure AA has plenty of RR and PW powered 757s which are certified for Long Range routes so why not take advantage. Also with Domestic routes feeling pressure from LCCs trashing yields and fewer business travel it makes sense to open up new International markets with some of their 100+ 757s, definitely make more money flying a 757 from BOS-MAN rather than chasing B6 etc into markets such as JFK-LGB.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
aaway
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:13 am

"AA's 767-200s are some of the oldest (if not the oldest) aircraft in AA's fleet, they will probably be phased out over the next 3-5 years."
Off topic a bit...the 762s are indeed the oldest airframes, but realitively low cycle. AA has typically used that fleet for the longer segs. Wouldn't be surprised to see the 5-7 year timeframe for retirement.
Back to topic...one of the previous posts suggest that AA will sell the service as all-economy. Why wouldn't AA consider selling F as Business on this route?
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
gkirk
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:23 am

A couple of years ago, Olympic planned an ATH-MAN-BOS flight (2 x weekly)using A300s. This never happened, and as I understand OA fly ATH-BOS nonstop using the A340.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
bartond
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:31 am

I don't think OA flies into BOS, do they? BOS has quite a few European carriers but I don't think Olympic is one of them. Atleast they didn't have them a couple of years ago and I haven't heard of Olympic starting BOS service since. Not sure on this though...
 
gigneil
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:35 am

Heh they don't fly anywhere at all anymore.

N
 
AA777MIA
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:44 am

Anyone know the fly time from BOS to MAN? Im guessing 51/2-6hrs??
 
dutchjet
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:47 am

Actual flying time is about 6 hours outbound, about 5 1/4 hours on the return......add about 15 minutes due to 757 service on the route. Of course, the schedule time will add an hour to allow for ground time and to ensure a great on-time performance statistic.
 
N62NA
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:48 am


AA's 767-200s are some of the oldest (if not the oldest) aircraft in AA's fleet, they will probably be phased out over the next 3-5 years.

Also AA's 767-200s have been relegated to JFK-SFO, LAX etc..


For some reason, there's a daily 767-200 on the JFK-MIA-JFK route. Flew it about a month ago.

Even though the plane was "old" in terms of age, it had a very nice, well maintained interior.
 
AA777MIA
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:53 am

That plane has been on the MIA JFK MIA route for a while now, not sure why, but that is one small exception to that isolation, and the plane does not overnight, it turns and goes right back to JFK to go across country...

If the flight to MAN would be 6hrs, that is about what a transcon is out of MIA to SFO and SEA. The 757s are used on those routes, except SEA, since we don't fly that anymore..
 
CALMSP
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:57 am

why do people complain about 757 service across the atlantic, when you travel NYC-west coast it can be even longer, especially if your comparing BOS-MAN. That is going to be shorter most likely than BOS-LAX.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:46 am

As regard 757s on NA routes in the late 90s BA operated two aircraft on BHX-JFK-YYZ and GLA-JFK-BOS services, operating in a two class layout.

With regards to viability of this route I think what has been overlooked is that NA routes from regional UK airports are exempt from the codeshare restrictions imposed on BA/AA from LHR and LGW. Hence BA is placing its code on AAs daily MAN-ORD and (seasonal) GLA-ORD service while AA is placing its code on BAs daily MAN-JFK service.

MAN-BOS and, if it comes about, MAN-MIA would fit into this pattern of allowing BA/AA to develop a joint venture across the NA as opposed to putting their codes on each others flights only from gateways with London originating flights. BAcx is growing its Manchester destinations served by the ARJ and ER4 and these would provide feed for new NA services. Likewise, regional UK passengers have a limited option of flights to avoid LHR.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:56 am

I think that a MIA service is under review for MAN for later in the year. This will obvioulsy be a 763.

Yes, MIA-MAN is under serious consideration for AA (and bmi british midland). Cost and route analysis performed by bmi british midland showed very good results. One major reason for the proposed BOS-MAN service and rumoured MIA-MAN service is because AA and BA can codeshare on US-MAN services. MIA-MAN would be flown 5x a week during the summer and daily during the winter using a 767-300ER.
a.
 
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STT757
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:12 am

If im not mistaken I think one of AA's EWR-LAX flights is a 767-200, though it might be a 767-300.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
bmi330
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:19 am

Is this not suppose to be happining from GLA-BOS also and the ORD flights to both GLA and MAN going to a single 777to something like ORD-GLA-MAN-GLA-ORD? Well that's the rumor I heard?

Is AA not taking a hefty beating of the UAL and BMI code share to ORD?
 
latinaviation
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:07 pm

AA's BOS-MAN should be announced soon, as early as this week. A friend has done some back-end analysis on this route. It will operate as an all-Y service with 188. As stated before, the domestic first class seats will be blocked and given to full-fare passengers and elite AAdvantage members.

What a terrible and inconsistent international product!
 
col
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:23 pm

Manchester has been fairly interesting as a NA departure airport. Those airlines with Hubs seem to do very well. CO - EWR going to 777. DL - ATL 763/777, US Airways - PHL 333. The airlines with no hubs did not fair so well, AA 752 to JFK, DL 763 JFK. These flights were full, but very low yield. Also, people are becoming service concience, I do not fly BA or AA into Manchester as there aircraft are old and service poor (old 763). BMI, CO and US offer a far superior product at a similar price. Boston direct would suit me, but a 757 and AA does not. AA seem to be making BOS a hub, so good luck to them for survival.
 
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Crosswind
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:30 pm

AA's MAN-ORD continues to enjoy healthy loads, the presence of bmi hasn't had a major negative effect on AA.

The MAN-GLA-ORD 777 rumour is a very old rumour which originated in the Glasgow area around 2 years ago. Sorry, never going to happen! If AA were struggling at MAN the one sure way to kill the service for good would be to make it one-stop, competing against the non-stop bmi service.

Plus traffic should be strengthened when BA and AA codeshare on the MAN-JFK/ORD and GLA-ORD services - should happen this summer.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
ryder10uk
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RE: AA 757s To MAN

Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:33 am

actually AA flies 767-200 to LHR still so they are still utilised over the atlantic


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