eugdog
Posts: 426
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2001 11:32 pm

I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:37 pm

The cancellation of some BA and AF flights due to possilbe hijackers was a mistake. I cannot believe the terrorists can realistically hijack a plane full of passengers with no weapons.

To succeed they would have to get past security checks for knives etc - possible but unlikely for all 4-5 terrorists to do it

Then they would have to overcome passenger resistence to a hijacking - even more unlikely. How can 4-5 terrorists overcome 100s of passengers who know they must resist at all costs. The terrorists would probably be beaten to death by outraged passengers.

The terrorist also have to breach the cockpit door which are now amoured. Even more unlikely given that there will be hundreds of passengers bearing down on them!


There are simply too many barriers to overcome - it may be possible to overcome one barrier but to overcome all three is virtually impossible.

The only possible scenario is if the terrorists rushed the cockpit as pilots go to the bathroom or food is brought it. But this would have to be done at the end of the flight and the terrorist would have to wait outside making themselves very obvious. But this is where security should focus upon preventing.

September 11 was a one shot only affair. The terrorists relied upon complete passenger compliance and chose planes with very few passengers. The terrorists cannot rely upon this anymore . In fact the terrorist failed to maintain control of one flight when the passengers revolted.

The biggest risk is a suicide bomber with a tiny amount of explosive aboard - they will be very difficult to spot!



[Edited 2004-01-03 12:39:07]
 
B747-437B
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:42 pm

Hijacking has been and always will be a threat that any transportation provider has to address. While you point out a number of superficial deterrants to a hijack, the truth remains that a hijack is still easy to execute even with those in place.

The only way to counter a hijack is to have a scalable response protocol in place that can be escalated to the appropriate situation as needed. Proper planning, training and execution are a must for that.

"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:44 pm

While I appriciate your positve outlook. It is not realistic. It will always be a threat and one we need to always be prepared for and try at all costs to prevent.
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
L-188
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:51 pm

It has always been a threat.

But......

The current infrindgements on freedom of travel, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure more then outweight any alleged benifits.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Marara
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:54 pm

Phew!!!

Thanks. i'll have to inform the CIA, MI5 ASIO etc that you dont think Hijacking is a threat anymore. I'm sure they didnt take any of the points above into their cancellations, much less the airlines that have cancelled flights (which certainly hasnt flattered any of their reputations, let alone the $$ it has cost them to do so).
I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
 
VSGirl
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:58 pm

Hijacking has always and will always be a threat.

Kimberly.
 
Leskova
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:02 pm

I wish you were right - but I, like B747-437B and FlyGuyClt, don't agree with your view.

First, your view that hundreds of passengers will come rushing at the terrorists - I doubt that: the human mind is a strange thing, and often enough, I'm sure, there'll be passengers who will think that complying with demands will still be the right way to react... the Stockholm Syndrome comes to mind there, even if this has - as far as I know - only been observed in longer duration hostage situations.

Second, you're right - there are lots and lots of new security procedures in place, but unfortunately - for us passengers and the crews - terrorists have not stopped planning at the point of 9/11. Their plans will, most likely, have evolved and adapted to the new security measures. As much as all of us hope that there are no holes in security, there have been enough events since 9/11 to prove that perfect security is neither there, not is it attainable through measures that we, as flying public, would or could accept. Perfect security is an illusion.

Third, do we really need hijackings anymore to create havoc? Just look at the situation of the last few days! At this point, all the terrorists have to do is create the "chatter" that something will happen - what happens then could widely be seen on CNN and others...

Even though all of us here would certainly appreciate it, if hijackings were a thing of the past, I doubt that any one of us will live long enough to see that goal achieved.

But, and this might be a somewhat shallow point of reassurance, in all probability, most of us will never, in their lifetimes, experience a hijacking: they're not really happening daily, and with the thousands of flights every day, the statistical probability is really very low.

It's just that low probabilities really suck if you end up on the wrong side of the statistic...

P.S.: When I started writing, only B747-437B and FlyGuyClt had responded - obviously, all the others seem to share the same opinion as well...

[Edited 2004-01-03 13:06:05]
Smile - it confuses people!
 
FlyingColours
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:02 pm

I believe that Hijacking is still a threat but no passengers will sit there anymore, passenger co-operation has gone out of the window. Now that it has been proven what can happen to a hijacked aircraft nobody will sit there quietly knowing that they could soon be flying into a building or something else.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
FlySSC
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:07 pm

Eugdog, I agree 100%.

Terrorists are everything but stupid ! Why would they try to board a plane in LHR or CDG or JFK with all the security check and procedures ! How could they hijacke a plane today, with armed sky marshalls on board (on AF ) armored locked cockpit doors, video check system etc...
Especially when there are so many other much easier way to access an aircraft, by night, on a tarmac for example, or shut it down with a missile during take-off or approach... Personnaly, as a F/A that's what I am more affraid of !
 
AirGAbon
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:18 pm

But what about security for flights from Africa (LOS, DKR, SAL) or smaller airports in Europe (LIS, KEF, WAW) to USA ??
People know the high security level at LHR, LGW, CDG, FRA, FCO, MAD etc... but is it the same everywhere ??
 
donder10
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:10 pm

Apparently not all luggage at LOS and OUA is screened!
 
mirrodie
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:16 pm

just a quick note in passing, great discussion thread. I applaud you guys for keeping it on topic and urge you to continue to keep it on topic and not turn this into a political agenda/issue.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:53 pm

I'm gonna have to agrre with Eugdod, i simply cannot believe that passengers would just sit there and take it all in, especially after 9/11. Take BA 223, a 747-400 full of pax, people might be scared, but they are also angry. 4 or 5 terrorists with knives or other sharp objects is a dangerous proposition, but not a impossible doomsday scenario. Passengers would do what they did on the AA Richard Reid flight, man-handle the terrorists and try to disarm them (assuming they dont have guns on them). It would take courage and most likely someone will get seriously injured or even die. It's either do or die in a scenario like this, better to go down fighting than doing nothing. As long as the terrorists don't have guns, then there's always a chance.

And all this is AFTER they've penetrated the security on the ground.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
B777337
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:30 am

Hijacking has been and will always be a threat to civil aviation. All possible measures must be taken both at the airport and on board to prevent it. Although we may find these measures inconvenient, we have to accept them in the interest of flight safety.
 
funflyer
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:32 am

Only that hijackers of now like to kill everyone not just get somewhere.
Who cares about status?
 
eugdog
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:39 am

Interesting responses!

I am not as positive as you think

I am sorry to say this that I am so terrified of suicide bombers that when I go to America this summer I will not take BA or any American airlines. I will take Air Canada and connect on a domestic US flight to my final US destination.

I am amazed Al-Queda have not brought down an airliner with a suicide bomber.
 
caribb
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:50 am

I think 9/11 has made passengers more aware of aircraft hijackings and because of it are more likely now than before to react to any threat of a hijacking on their plane. Perhaps not everyone but enough to give the hijackers a run for their money. The alternative afterall is certain death and destruction whereas before it meant ending up in another part of the world for several days.

Also as mentioned many times so far the threat of hijacking is far from over. It might be argued that terrorists won't likely use planes as weapons since the government has put so much emphasis on the threat that is now becomes a much more complicated option for them. So alternatives might be to shoot down a plane with a hand help missle launcher. Drive a truck full of explosives into a parked or taxiing plane or something pheripheral like that. In other words find a weak spot in the overall security, an area where there has been little change and use it to their advantage. Afterall prior to 9/11 who would ever have thought they'd plow two planes into office towers and bring them to the ground? Surprise is their best weapon.
 
Guest

RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:02 am

Suppose terrorists think outside the box? That's what they did 9/11. We're preparing for known threats but not 'outside the box' thinking.

Let's go back to the old communist concept of destroying capitalism through chaos and confusion. No need to blow up a skyscraper. Simply bring down a few airliners so people fear flying. If they fear flying, then they'll stop flying.

This can possibly be done by sending a projectile through the fuselage or window glass at high altitude (transcontinental, trans-Atlantic, trans-Pacific). Thinking outside the box, we would need a miniature ballistic launcher shaped like, of all things, a ballpoint pen and made from Lexon -- the hardened industrial plastic. The detonator could be simple black powder -- not normally scanned for at airport security. And neither are ballpoint pens. Most stay in shirt pockets and never go through x-ray machines. So, in theory every person carrying a ballpoint pen on an airplane is a potential threat.

Seriously, most seem to miss the point. Terrorists need only to think outside the box once .



[Edited 2004-01-03 17:02:59]
 
MidnightMike
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:06 am


Hijacking has also been an option for the terrorist, if they want the airplane, they will find a way to take the airplane over.
NO URLS in signature
 
Guest

RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:12 am

MidnightMike,

Why might they "...want the plane"? Can you give a scenario for which that would be useful to them?

 
richierich
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:16 am

This is a dumb thread. OF COURSE HIJACKING IS STILL A THREAT!
Now, I do realize that there are a plethora of safeguards in place to try and prevent a hijacking from occuring, but for every barrier put up, there are always going to be terrorists looking for ways over or around these barriers. No security system is perfect. And in case you were not aware, there are holes in the screening process!

None shall pass!!!!
 
capt078
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:25 am

i actually agree that hijacking is not the threat it was pre-9/11. this does not, however, mean we should be less cautious or vigilent. i do not believe that any flight operating to or from an airport with effective security will be hijacked, and more importantly, if someone were to hijack the plane, i do believe the passengers and cabin crew would attempt to overwhelm the hijacker(s). certainly since 9/11, there is plenty of evidence to suggest passenger involvement in stopping catastrophe. one needs only to harken back two years to richard reed, or check out the various news stories about passengers rushing and overwhelming unruly passengers.

what i am more concerned about are terrorists either blowing a plane up or bringing some sort of biological toxin onto the plane, or into a country. if security can preclude a would-be terrorist from bringing a gun or explosive onto an airplane, then i believe passengers collectively can have the upper hand. if a terrorist can smuggle a bomb onto a plane or its cargo hold, then there really isn't much hope. likewise, if a terrorist can bring a biological weapon or disease onto a plane or into the country, again we don't have much defense.

so, while i am not concerned about people trying to take over a plane with knives and boxcutters, i am concerned about them trying to blow one up or kill everyone and more with some sort of undetectable poison or disrease ridden weapon.

a side note: i fly very frequently. i also happen to be a very large man. when i fly, i try to make a positive impression on the flight or cabin crew so that if something happens, they can turn to me for help. this has actually happened a couple of times. i recently flew from atlanta to boston on a delta 767, on which a passenger (some 20 something kid) got drunk and very loud. the flight attendants informed the flight crew that there could be a problem but was not one yet, then asked me if i would sit next to the kid. i did and everything was fine; he just passed out. but it doesn't hurt to let the professionals know that you're there to help.

lastly, i (like many people) make a point of watching what is going on when i fly. i still nap or listen to music, but i try to be aware of who is doing what in the passenger cabin.
 
jcxp15
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:27 am

The problem I don't think is security over here. It's overseas. If people are able to get into wheel wells without getting caught, what's to say they can't disguise themselves and bring semi-automatic rifles on board?
 
Leskova
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:39 am

It is security everywhere - remember, it just needs a single lapse by a single person to open up a possibility...

And you'll see mistakes happening, be it in London, Frankfurt, Tokyo, New York, Los Angeles or Tel Aviv.

There is no absolute security - never has been, never will be.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
caribb
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:41 am

There are still plenty of ways to enact terroism without physically being on the aircraft. All of us could come up with ideas but I don't think it's a good idea to give anyone any new ideas. America is vulnerable just through the threat itself. Our (Western) society is built on consumerism and the economy that it fuels. Just a significant threat to it can send it in a tailspin. Do more than just a threat and it may collapse. Look at 9/11... 4 plane crashes and 3 years later we are still feeling the effects of it. Imagine had something even worse happened and in several cities. Europeans have been dealing with terrorism for decades. Perhaps the best way to thwart it is to deal with the root problem and try and change the way people in other parts of the world view America. This doesn't mean giving in to terrorism rather it means finding ways to better satisfy more people in political and economic policy. It will make sense if it ends the needs for military strikes and heightened security continent wide. A violent response to violence works to satisfy our egos and makes us feel good in the short run.. but after a while we realise it has little long term effect. Afghanistan has been bombed and it's regime changed and so has Iraq yet in the end all of us still fear Al Qaeda and they still are threatening. I think it's time America and the allies started thinking outside of the box.

[Edited 2004-01-03 17:52:20]
 
Thrust
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:42 am

My point exactly, Jcxp15. Al Qaeda are not the only ones out there who want to hijack planes. Never, ever, let your guard down about hijacking. Hijacking has been occuring since D.B. Cooper. Al Qaeda may try it again, even though they know they are expected to do it, using a different strategy. If we just laugh hijacking off now, we are only making life and air travel more dangerous for ourselves. We must assume people will always try to do it, whether it is a threat or not.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
oerk
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:58 am

Well sure its still a threat...

It is true that passenger resistence may well deter a hijacking, but if you expect this to hold, then it requires vigilance from those on board. Hence, to disregard hijacking as a threat might be counter-productive, since it might encourage a return to the "it'll never happen to me" mentality that always leaves you unprepared for the worst.

Then again, I doubt anyone is prepared for a hijacking are they!? Hmm, I seem to have deviated from my point here, but suffice to say, its the very fact that passengers consider it a danger and possibility that makes it more unlikely in the first place - since the hijackers will expect resistence. Become complacent and the odds may turn in favour of the terrorist.

Conclusion? Flying is still ludicrously safe - but flying now has added responsibilities, one of which is vigilance.

Have a good day y'all.
 
KYIPpilot
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 2:06 am

I do think that hijacking is a threat, but I think a terrorist(s) would be stupid to try it now. I don't think people are going to sit around anymore and just let the terrorists do what they want. Even if they make threats of having a bomb on board, the people on the plane are going to realize that if they just sit back, they will most likely die now anyways in a 9/11 style attack. They will do what the people of United 93 did, and try to take back the plane, and most likely succeed in preventing the terrorists from reaching their target.

I think one of the biggest threats now comes from terrorists shooting at planes on approach to landing. The planes are low and slow, which would make an easy target for a crude shoulder fired missle or something of that nature.
"It starts when you're always afraid; You step out of line, the man come and take you away" -Buffalo Springfield
 
mjszanto
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 2:34 am

Given the potential destructive impact of a large airliner, it is better to be safe than sorry.

However, I think those of us who are not involved in national security can actually afford to discount this risk, particularly, when we make travel plans. The 9/11 terrorists whether knowingly or unknowingly took advantage of the fact that pilots too readily tend to assume that the hijackers are less likely kill people if they are appeased. I realize that there are many pilots on this forum, so I am less informed than them on this, but I would imagine that the protective impulse of many pilots, are to do what they can to save their passengers, crew, and the general public even at the risk of their own lives. I think given that we were unprepared for terrorists crashing our planes into buildings, their training was used against them.

In the sense that pilots were trained to appease hijackers, the terrorists were lucky on 9/11. We should have known that terrorists might try to crash planes into buildings, because in France terrorists tried to force an Air France plane to crash into the Eifel Tower.

I think we need to worry about the potential of a pilot crashing a plane. What is really scary is that apparently an backup copilot was able to crash the Egypt Air flight in 1999, and even when the pilot came back he wasn't able to prevent the tragedy. Another issue I'm concerned about is the issue of armed marshals. I think that it is hard to completely discount the possibility that in some countries, the marshalls could be infiltrated by terrorists or other dangers types of individuals. I actually think that it could be more likely that the marshalls get infiltrated than the pilots being terrorists. Remember, that the president of Egypt was assasinated by members of his own military at a military parade. We can link the group that killed Sadat indirectly to world trade center bombings.

I think the danger from a rogue pilot is lower than people think, but cannot be ignored. Fortunately, I think that the people who kill themselves to destroy planes are not a particularly talented or intelligent segment of their respective societies.

Just as we usually do not hear about the successes of American intelligent agencies, the big failures of terrorists never get reported either, which gives an erroneous impression of powerful terrorists, and inept Western intelligence.

Don't forget the attempt by Al Qaeda to blow up LAX in 1999, which was a total failure, but got no press coverage whatsoever.
 
sllevin
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:22 am

I agree with the "hijacking is not effective" concept.

I have, since the events of September 11th, likened hijacking to bank robbery.

Why, you ask?

Because, for decades now, the rule for people working in a bank has been "give them the money, don't upset them, don't resist, and the bank robbers will leave without hurting anyone."

Now, if bank robbers took the money, then killed everyone before leaving -- I think the "don't resist" policy would change!

Aircraft hijacking was no different. It went along the lines of "don't resist, be cool, and you'll end up in Cuba. A couple of days on the beach, and you'll be home."

Well, even by the time of flight 93, everyone knew the "new" rules. And the hijacking failed. The same as would any future hijacking.

Steve
 
amhilde
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:39 am

Im with KYIPilot on that statement- sure I pay attention to whats going on around me and where the exits are and this and that, but at the same time I dont worry quite so much about hijacking anymore as I do over the shulder fired missile threat. Hell I probably worry more over near misses/collisions than on board hijacking. But if the missile was used once, and it was quite crude and not well fired, and had some effect then I cant imagine if one were to bring down, or at least cause some serious damage, to a big boy 747 coming in to, say, LHR. Especially with the amount of space around the airport perimeter. Psychologically I could imagine that even an attempt would be enough to put a dent back into aviation again.

As for another hijacking of what we saw on 9/11, that took four years to plan, and it WAS out of the box. It would be foolish for them to try that again, not to mention all the planning again, now that at least some new barriers have been erected. But I think that unfortunately our security services here in the US are too politicized to be able to consider out of the box scenarios.

Hang on tightly, Let go lightly
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:57 am

I'm going to have to come up with a big disagree, eugdog. You raise very good points, but one factor defeats them all - time. As time goes by, technologies will improve such that our current screening methods won't be able to detect newer plastics and ceramics which could be used to form weapons to hijack an aircraft.

Further, as time goes by, laxness will set in. 60 years after Pearl Harbor, citizens of the US thought a direct attack on the nation was impossible, yet we were treated to a far different reality on 9/11/01. As a result, the thinking "It can't/won't happen again" will set in and security will be compromised enough to allow for another hijacking of an American aircraft. As someone else said, "terorrists aren't stupid." Indeed, with some creativity even the current precautions can be worked around.

Hijacking has almost always been a problem and I believe it almost always will be, whether we like it or not, all we can do is stay eternally vigilant.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
PiedmontGirl
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:01 am

Hijacking is still a threat.

The current crop of world class crazies have been using airplanes to commit terrorist acts since long before D.B. Cooper jumped out of an airplane with his bag of money. It's been going on for well over thirty years and I do not think these people are done using airplanes for terrorist acts. They like doing this. It get a lot of news coverage and gets them attention, new recruits, and funding.

The first terrorist hijacking I can remember was the attempted hijacking of an El Al 707 enroute from Amsterdam to New York in September, 1970. The hijackers managed to smuggle aboard two loaded guns. A female hijacker had two grenades hidden in her bra.

Once in flight, one of the hijackers put a gun to the head of a flight attendant and demanded that she take him into the cockpit. For one thing, she could not and for another, she would not. Captain Uri bar Lev was watching all of this transpire on his little television monitor. One of the other flight attendants tackled the hijacker -- that flight attendant was shot five times.

Captain bar Lev had simply made up his mind that he was not going to be hijacked, taken someplace and he and his whole crew tortured. So, he declared an emergency, nosed his 707 over and ran for London at 12,000 feet per minute.

The female hijacker fainted. The rest were knocked to their knees by the sudden movement of the airplane. When the flight landed in London, the hijackers were taken into custody and the flight attendant taken to a hospital. That F/A, by the way, recovered and went on to fly more flights.

Security has become much more sophisticated since 1970. The weapons that people might smuggle aboard have become more sophisticated right along with it.

Most folks think of a pistol as being something that weighs at least a pound or a pound and a half (half or three quarters of a kilo) and is immediately identifiable as a pistol. This is no longer true. They can be as small as a ball point pen and look like one, too.

Is hijacking still a threat? I sure do think so.

The fad of hijacking airplanes to Cuba did not last long because those who wanted to do that sort of thing soon learned that Castro did not treat them like conquering heroes and promptly sent them to the slammer. If you were Fidel, would you want someone who steals commercial airliners at gun point running loose on your island? No? Me either. Fidel Castro may be many things -- stupid is not one of them.

 
ObiThomas
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 1999 11:08 am

RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:12 am

It's a sort of self-defeating prophecy. If you think hijacking is not a threat, then it will be more attractive as a threat, if you see my point.
 
kilavoud
Posts: 863
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:19 am

Eugdog,

I would not say that hijacking is no more a threat in 2004.

What about the effective resistance of passengers to a hijacking when most of them are in the arms of Morpheus in the middle of a 13 hours long flight ? You should not dream : hijacking unfortunately is still a threat.

Only well trained marshals could act in necessity like guardian angels.

Cheers. Kilavoud.
 
jhooper
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:25 am

I'm really not worried about another 9/11 style attack. Hijacking a plane is much more difficult than it was before; the passengers and crew simply won't stand for it. At least in a hijacking situation, there is the option of putting up a resistance, and there may be something you can do (as a passenger) to prevent it. And even if the plane is hijacked, there are measures in place so that fighers would be scrambled to assess the situation and prevent a suicide attack.

I am, however, less confident in measures put into place to prevent bombings or missile shots.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
GDB
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:32 am

You may think it's not a threat, unfortunately Al-Queda or their proxies don't.
Sept 11th was the 'making' of them. All terrorists seek publicity, they got it on that day, the most filmed/photographed event in history.
BA faced the real threat of a probable attempt at a hijacking last year in Kenya.
If somehow, a terrorist gets in the cockpit now, the new doors actually work in their favour.
They'd try only when near the target, can't have an aircraft acting oddly, not responding, and/or sends a warning before a terrorist takes it over for any length of time before reaching the target, as it would be shot down.
However, that still wipes out a planeload of pax and crew, so a positive result for the terrorists anyway, better yet, for them, the armed forces of their enemy have to do the deed for them.
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:39 am

RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:40 am

Jhooper:

And even if the plane is hijacked, there are measures in place so that fighers would be scrambled to assess the situation and prevent a suicide attack.

If a suicide attack was underway, the hijackers would pay no attention to the F-16s. The F-16s would shoot the airplane down. This would, of course, kill everyone on board, and likely several people on the ground as well from falling debris.

Procedures for shooting down a commercial airliner are practiced on a regular basis. No one is going to send up an Air Guard pilot to shoot down an airliner if s/he has not practiced doing it in a simulator.

I do not ever want to hear on the news a recording of a Guard pilot saying "Splash one airliner." Not ever. Not so long as I live.
 
jeffrey1970
Posts: 1231
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:51 am

Eugdog,

I would say that on September 10, 2001 many people probably did not think much of hijackings, but they sure do now. I don't believe in living in fear, but we also have to be street savy. I don't believe we can afford to think that hijackings are unlikely.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
artsyman
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:16 am

Security is only as strong as the weakest link in the network. I have no doubt that some little airport in Buttplug, Indiana with it's one security guard could be bought, or tricked, or even just have some Al Qaeda guy apply for the job. They are not in a hurry, and eventually they will get someone in a position to help them. At that point he could let through 2 people or 20 people, and they are now behind the security lines, and can go where they please in any of the US airports.

You can apply the same rule to Flight attendants, and to Pilots. They can get a job, and then the cockpit door being secure means absolutely nothing.

Before people get onto the US about this, the security at LHR was proven to be in the same boat about three months ago when a smuggling ring was uncovered. They had people in security and also gate agents at LHR and they were smuggling people into the US without tickets and then they were claiming asylum. If they can do it at LHR, then they can do it anywhere, and it is only a matter of time before something else happens.

Jeremy
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 7:00 am

We didn't think an attack of the magnitude of 9/11 was possible, but it happened. Regardless of the security level, it's best to keep terrorists away from aircraft, even if they do not have weapons. No telling what tricks they may have up their sleeves.

There is no question that Tom Ridge and his organiztion are being overcautious, but imagine the outcry if another terrorist act succeeds. Eugdog will be first to vilify him.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
jhooper
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 8:26 am

PiedmontGirl :

If a suicide attack was underway, the hijackers would pay no attention to the F-16s. The F-16s would shoot the airplane down. This would, of course, kill everyone on board, and likely several people on the ground as well from falling debris.


I wasn't trying to imply that the F-16 wouldn't shoot down the airliner. As sad as that would be, the body count would generally be limited to the aircraft manifest (plus maybe a few on the ground). 250 innocent people, give or take, would tragically lose their lives, but 3000+ would be saved. Hence, I am not afraid of another 9/11-style attack being pulled off, because it won't be.



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
nycfuturepilot
Posts: 773
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 9:28 am

Though i think people may try to hijack a plane i don't think they could ever succeed because i think the passengars would immediatly attack the hijackers.
Father, Son, HOYA spirit
 
JetService
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:03 am

The next suicide attack (if there is one) will be with a freighter or bogus charter.
"Shaddap you!"
 
PiedmontGirl
Posts: 1112
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RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:23 am

Jhooper:

I wasn't trying to imply that the F-16 wouldn't shoot down the airliner. As sad as that would be, the body count would generally be limited to the aircraft manifest (plus maybe a few on the ground). 250 innocent people, give or take, would tragically lose their lives, but 3000+ would be saved. Hence, I am not afraid of another 9/11-style attack being pulled off, because it won't be.

No offense meant. I've discovered to my complete surprise a good number of people who think those F-16s are going to do "something" besides shoot the airplane down. I live in a large military area and no one here thinks the fighters would go up to have tea or some such. No one in the airline thinks it either. However, there are other people.....................

I think it's highly unlikely that another 9/11 style attack would be completed. I think its more likely that one might be tried.

As I say.....no offense meant. Sorry for misunderstanding your post.  Smile
 
AirDude66
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:48 pm

RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:32 am

Now that we have identified true ignorance...what are your plans now EUG.
 
mjszanto
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:08 am

RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:13 pm

Interestingly, the first plane to be hijacked with box cutters was a plane in India before 9/11 I think.

While it is a tragedy for the families and people involved if terrorists are able to murder the people in a plane, I don't think it would suceed in harming commercial aviation.

I think we really have to worry most about are 9/11 type attacks which effectively transform the planes to be the equivalent of tactical nuclear missiles in the hands of psychotic killers. 9/11 attacks could prove very crippling to commercial air travel, especially if it undermines people's confidence in airport security.

Fortunately, I don't think we see much sophistication in the 9/11 terrorists. Those group of sickos get too much credit.

I think we need to exercise maximum caution. If we god forbid have to shoot down a plane to prevent a worse terrorist attrocity, I don't think the terrorists win.

I have to say, I can't imagine that there are that many crazy stupid people who think they accomplish something by murdering 1000s of people and in the process committing suicide.

I can't help but remember the German sabateours who came to America during World War II to basically conduct a campaign of terrorism. If I remember correctly, they chose not to go ahead with it. Unfortunately for them, they were executed anyway. Still I think it is hard to get people to come to America and follow through on suicide type attacks.

If our intelligence is correct that they are trying for more 9/11 type attacks, I don't think it reflects well on the intelligence of these terrorist scum.
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:57 pm

As I say.....no offense meant. Sorry for misunderstanding your post.

No offense taken... I didn't actually realize that there were people out there that thought the F-16s would actually have another function other than to prevent another 9/11 (by shooting the jet down).
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:57 pm

I tend to doubt that any future terrorist attacks (which I do not believe are likely, but that's another issue) would involve hijacked aircraft. There are many other things that could be tried.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
mog
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:50 am

RE: I Do Not Think Hijacking Is A Threat Anymore

Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:21 pm

Hi-jacking of aircraft has been and remains an ongoing threat in India, the most (in) famous one being IC-814 from Katmandu towards Delhi which ended up going Amritsar-Lahore-Dubai-Kandahar. But I think we've finally got our act together on this, and not just with flight marshalls on most flights.

In one of the lesser reported hijack attempts on Indian aircraft, the Captain of the plane changed engine sounds and made the plane shake as well as shudder, and told the hijackers the plane was going to crash into the sea with all passengers, at which point the hijack was terminated rather abruptly.

Another time, a Pakistani aircraft hijacked towards India landed at a darkened Pakistani airport, and the pilot pretended it was India (there is a Hyderabad in both countries . . .) wherein the hijackers deplaned and were promptly arrested.

One of the big ticket methods here now is to stop glorifying the hijackers as well as take the media into the loop by not pushing live video of passions from friends and relatives. But that doesn't mean people have given up trying to hijack planes. It is just that, in India, a hijacker is likely to:-

a) face solid resistance onboard.
b) not achieve much anymore.


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