Mikey711MN
Topic Author
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Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Sun Jan 04, 2004 8:23 am

Frankly, no matter what the potential property tax benefits they might receive, I can't see the neighbors being too fond of this idea. However, I've always wondered just how much more Hartsfield can grow, and perhaps this idea makes sense as a modest reliever airport.

Would any airlines--primarily LCCs not named "AirTran"--be interested in having some operations there? If so, who? Would any be inclined to move from Hartsfield? How much investment would it take to get something started?

Anyway, read the Atlanta Journal-Constitution opinion for more info. Personally, I think the area is so spread out at this point that a second airport should at least be more closely considered if only for metropolitan planning purposes.

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:15 am

It would have to be located on the other side of the city to make it attractive to people who don't want to drive. For example, look at HOU... my in-laws live down south and hate going all the way across town to IAH. That makes HOU a little more attractive. However, is it justifiable to build a whole new airport for that? It would take a lot more.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
jcxp15
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:23 am

No point in having a 2nd airport since most of the traffic at The Hartsfield is Delta. THey'd lose so many passengers if they split up their flights...
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Sun Jan 04, 2004 12:28 pm

the article cited is an opinion only. Although ATL is on the southwide, most of Atlanta's wealth and population is on the northside. Nobody wants an airport in their backyard on the northside so it is very unlikely that Dobbins will be converted to commercial service; it will be delayed for years in court. Other airports on the northside have been talked about for conversion to commercial service. Further, Delta will serve every route and match every fare that anyone else tries to offer out of any airport anywhere near Atlanta and will likely win given DL's strength in Atlanta. Further, ATL is getting a 5th runway soon which will help assure its position as the world's business airport in terms of passengers. Atlanta will be a one airport town until Delta wants to open another one which is very unlikely to happen.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:26 pm

Intriguing article. The impression I get is that the only reason a second airport would be needed in Atlanta, would be in order to draw Southwest. Maybe Delta would find it worthwhile to run a few convenience flights for north-side businesspeople from such an airport to say LGA, DCA, and ORD. But why would they want to compete with their own beautifully developed, highly-efficient ATL hub operation?

Hartsfield-Jackson already has the ideal "II II" runway layout, the most efficient type possible, *plus* the fifth, also separated, parallel runway under construction. Would it be accurate to say, that once this runway is open, H-J could have 3 a/c departing and 2 arriving at once--all-weather ops?

In addition, there will be room for the proposed second ATL terminal between the new runway and the existing complex. And if a new terminal complex is opened on the south side, there would probably be room for Southwest if they wanted to enter. That complex could probably be open at least as soon, if not sooner, than a Dobbins commercial airport could get past the damn NIMBY court battle that WorldTraveler noted.

However...WorldTraveler, if Southwest did decide to enter the Atlanta market at ATL or elsewhere, they'd make it. AirTran has made clear that Delta is not invincible, FF miles and all. JetBlue tried to go up against two well-established home-town carriers with a handful of badly-timed flights, and a much smaller war chest. If Southwest felt that Atlanta would be worth the cost of establishing themselves there, they'd do it, and they'd succeed.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Tiger119
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Sun Jan 04, 2004 7:49 pm

The wealthy individuals, companies and corporations on the north side that use air travel have their private aircraft at Peachtree-Dekalb County (or is it Dekalb County-Peachtree) airport, and that airport won't get any bigger (geographically). If the air base does close, I think it would be a long shot that the property would be used as a municipal commercial airport. May be the demand is there, I just don't see it right now.
Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:09 am

"Would it be accurate to say, that once this runway is open, H-J could have 3 a/c departing and 2 arriving at once--all-weather ops? "

Yes... look at DFW for example.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
gr8slvrflt
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:13 am

I'm all for it. I think AirTran could relocate all Atlanta operations there and get a little room to breathe--very difficult at Hartsfield-Jackson. Several years ago Southwest tried very hard to add flights at Charlie Brown just west of the city but the NIMBYs prevailed.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:16 am

I can't believe people are actually stooping down to calling the airport "Hartsfield-Jackson" now... must we give in to political correctness???

I think with the way Mrs. Jackson was acting about saying that the airport should have Hartsfield removed from the name so it would just be Jackson, we should just call it Hartsfield only.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:36 am

I love Atlanta, but despite what the writer of that editorial seems to imply, Atlanta is nowhere near on par with cities like London, Paris, and Tokyo.

With 4.2 million people in the metro area, Hartsfield is more than adequate to serve the city's needs. They're home to the world's largest single airline hub, they've got multiple frequencies of nonstop service to pretty much every city in the United States, plus nonstop service to nearly every major business center in Europe and Latin America. No other city in the United States enjoys as extensive and varied a range of both domestic and international destinations as Atlanta does. And unlike most major cities, Atlanta is completely dependent on one airline for that extensive air service.

Why screw it up?

Besides, it's a nonissue anyway. There's no way the folks in Cobb County will allow Dobbins to be used as a commercial airport. I wouldn't either if I lived there.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:18 am

DCA-ROC,
you need only look at DFW/DAL to understand the peace that WN makes in other airlines hub cities. AA has a long history of protecting its turf at DFW; WN has succeeded at DAL because they know the box they are in and have not tried to get out of it. Same thing exists at ORD/MDW although that is probably facilities induced at ORD more than anything. Most analysts would probably agree that DL's biggest strategic blunder was not taking AirTran seriously when they came back from their crash although I'm sure they were torn between being the big back gorilla that put the poor new guy out of business when he was down and out and being rid of a competitive threat for years to come. Whichever case, Delta has to live with AirTran, and although they will probably add several new west coast cities, they are being forced to grow elsewhere partly because of facilities constraints at ATL. AirTran's market share in Atlanta has been fairly constant, indicating that DL is effectively competing w/ them. and Southwest and Delta manage to stay away from each other's toes - after all it was Delta that downsized SLC years after WN did the same. With the exception of the Florida cities, WN has largely been able to do what it needs to do without messing w/ Delta. We could right a great deal about how the majors and LCC's compete, but I don't think the final chapter has been written and I fully expect that at least some of the majors will hold their ground if not recover some of what they have lost to LCC's.

Politically, a second airport will not happen in Atlanta and the logic is flawed if one thinks that a big city has to have more than one commercial airport. Denver does not nor do any of the Florida cities, Detroit....

and yes, I fully expect that if Delta had to defend itself in another airport, it would be very aggressive in defending its home market and whatever carrier would have no more share than other carriers have at ATL. Keep in mind that much of DL's traffic at ATL is connecting traffic. Flights can easily be downsized at ATL to account for the shift in local traffic that might move to a new airport.
 
pilottim
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:31 am

Cobb County/McCollum Field (RYY) extended its runway a few years ago for potential 727 and 737 traffic. The thought was to use it for cargo service, but I agree that there's no way the residents around Marietta/Dobbins would allow this to happen.
 
Mikey711MN
Topic Author
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:57 am

How much "traffic" does the current base get?!? Anyone know?
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
txagkuwait
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:23 am

IF and WHEN the Feds, the FAA, or someone else decides that funnelling all that air traffic into Hartsfield compromises safety (and I could make a cogent argument that it does) or that it is fuel-inefficient (tell me being #38 for takeoff during Tstrm season...or spending an hour circling CSG before you can proceed to a landing at ATL)...then the US Gubmint boys and girls will tell ATL to open another airport.

The nice thing about it is that it is already there, and already controlled by the Feds.

I'm talking about MGE.

Long runways. Used by C5s and C130s and such.

Highway infrastructure. Not far from the confluence of I-85 and I-285 on the NW side of town.

Close to where the money is. The people that buy airplane tickets.

Mixing commercial and military air? Not a problem.....look at SPS, MCO, GRK, and all sorts of other places. It can be done. In fact, it's going to have to be done.

The problem with Atlanta right now is not that it is in the wrong place nor that the highway network won't support it. The problem is it is very user unfriendly.

With the advent of heightened security measures, combined with Atlanta's airport being miles from parking.....and then you add on the risk of delays due to the fact everybody and his brother flies there....air travel in and out of Atlanta is becoming more trouble than it is worth.

It used to be if I was in Nashville on business and needed to go to ATlanta next, it was easier and faster (not to mention cheaper) to get a rent car and drive.

Not, if I am in Memphis or maybe even Little Rock on business I can make an argument in favor of driving rather than fly.

Houston has multiple airports. Los Angeles & San Francisco and Chicago and New York and Dallas and the Miami area all have multiple airports.

When is Atlanta going to wake up and realize that unless they do something (ie, add another airport) that the gridlock and hassle associated with passing thru ATL is costing them?

DL might own the Atlanta City Council, and possibly even a lot of the politicos within the state of Georgia. However, DL does not control the feds as of yet.....and if the right buttons get pushed, we may yet see the ugly mustard-colored (or blue) airplanes zipping in and out of MGE.

Don't think it will ever happen, eh? Did you think WN would announce service to PHL?

 
srbmod
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:37 am

The City of Atlanta owns 10,000 acres in Dawson County and another parcel of similar size in Paulding County, both about an hour north of the city. Both parcels were bought in the early 1970s as possible airport sites. It would actually be cheaper to make MGE a second commercial airport than to use the city-owned land north of town. The Dawson County site would require removing a shutdown nuclear reactor (the site was previously owned by Lockheed) and the costs of laying the infrastructre and cleanup of the land is in the billions. MGE could operate under a noise and time curfew to satisfy the locals, heck most modern commercial jets are quieter than anything that currently flies out of the base. I-75 and I-285 are close enough to the base, and they could always build a parkway just for the airport. The only thing that hurts is the distance to the nearest rail transit station.
 
Kohflot
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:02 am

...and the easiest way for Southwest to get into the Atlanta market would be to buy AirTran. 20+ gates at the blink of an eye....

Everyone says that they'd stay away from Hartsfield because it's delay prone. Thing is, the vast majority of ground delay programs only run each flight 10-30 minutes late. There are a LOT worse airports in the country..
Ask why..
 
fxra
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:29 pm

TUrning MGE into a commercial airport is a pretty good idea, its in a good location to dra traffic from ATL. The runways there, the infrastructure is there. I coule see this becoming a airport for use by the "LCC" type carriers, perhaps facilitating the entry of ATA and Southwest into Atlanta area with the return of Jetblue.

Many smaller cities population have the 2 airports wiht commercial service, as well as larger ones. The downside to using MGE is, well, the last time I was up there traffic sucked in that area. INcredibly congested in the Marietta/CObb county area. I would hope that MGE would remain open to support the Lockheed plant there. But given the NIMBY mentality in this area, the "money" in the area would rather see the plant closed and lots of jobs lost than put up with some daytime noise form jets.

WHat if we name it Carter-Jackson... maybe that would be politically correct enough for th City of ATL to go for it!! (sarcasm off).

later
Visualize Whirled Peas
 
txagkuwait
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:33 pm

In the interest of free enterprise and reward for a job well done, my suggestion for a name would be "The Zell Miller-Atlanta Metro National Airport."
 
jhooper
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:49 pm

What's wrong with adding a second (smaller) airport. When I go to Florida, I love to fly to MLB to avoid the hassle of MCO. If commercial service could be opened up at one of these satellite airport on the north side of town, it would be a great O&D alternative to ATL. If Delta is worried about protecting it's superfortress, flights could be limited to, say, 10 per day (as if a small terminal with a couple of gates would make a dent in ATL).

Oh, and maybe this is a dumb question, but how did Airtran get ahold of all those gates in ATL anyway? I assume Delta leases certain gates that can't be just "taken over" if Delta doesn't want other airlines to get those gates.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
jcs17
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:15 pm

PDK would probably be the best location for regional jet service. Sure, the airport itself won't be getting any bigger, but there are plenty of small terminals (currently for GA traffic) and the location would be excellent. It doesn't take much space to run a regional jet operation and some of the corporate jets that PDK gets are about 20x louder than anything a regional carrier would operate. Peachtree-Dekalb is about a 15 minute drive (even in Atlanta traffic) to the booming Perimeter area, and about 25 minutes to Alpharetta (another city that is booming commercially). Not to mention about 20 minutes to Buckhead and Lenox. As opposed to having to go through the city, which during rush-hour, is hellish at best and has caused me to miss flights many a time. I wouldn't expect a PDK operation, if DL isn't involved, to generate a lot of local traffic, instead it would be for primarily out-of-town business travellers. United Express to ORD, American Eagle to DFW, and Continental Express to EWR perhaps would make the most sense. As for NIMBY's, well, lets just say the immediate area surrounding PDK is not the most affluent place in the world. One area of concern though is that CDC research centers are right next to the airport.

MGE wouldn't be ideal because the airport would only really be able to serve Cobb County and Marrieta. Its still not very convenient to the Perimeter area and North Atlanta, especially in traffic.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
gr8slvrflt
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RE: Logistics Of 2nd Atlanta Airport

Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:33 pm

Oh, and maybe this is a dumb question, but how did Airtran get ahold of all those gates in ATL anyway?

After Eastern's demise Concourse C was closed off while the city tried to encourage Northwest to move their Memphis hub to Atlanta. Northwest eventually demurred but TWA set up shop and used all of the South half of C while ValuJet and Kiwi set up shop on the Northern side. After TWA was sent packing (they couldn't compete with ValuJet's fares), ValuJet moved to the Southend so Delta/ASA could have the Northend and use the "Eastern Shortcut" connection to Upper B.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.