teahan
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"Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:45 am

The FAA has apparently sent a directive to a number of European carriers asking them to include the following in their pre-flight announcement on flights to/from the United States:

"The US State Department demands that passengers are not allowed to congregate in groups around the toilets nor anywhere in the aircraft."

What next? Having to ask permission before going to the toilet?

Standard Warning: Stick to the topic. Avoid political/religious discussion which should be saved for Non Aviation/other websites.


[Edited 2004-01-04 19:06:59]
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:49 am

U.S. carriers must make the same P.A. as well

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
ObiThomas
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:50 am

Do you have a source for this information, please? Thanks.
 
trident2e
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:52 am

Further evidence that the world, and the US in particular, has gone mad.
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:52 am

Does it really cause that much of an inconvenience? Honestly... You'd think that with the way people on here bitch about how much they want their IFE they wouldn't mind watching all 200 mind-numbing channels for the whole flight...

I'm sure that if there were a few passengers in the back of the aircraft by the FA's they wouldn't have a problem at all. Especially if the FA's could see that the passengers weren't Middle Eastern. The majority of FA's are so laid back, but only tell passengers to do stuff (ie: sit down, not congregate in the back, etc.) if they feel uneasy for whatever reason.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:54 am

Fly777UAL:

I have never read anything anywhere that says "Middle Eastern" only.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
ObiThomas
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:54 am

Especially if the FA's could see that the passengers weren't Middle Eastern

I'm curious how this is determined? I mean, if John Sununu and Ralph Nader were together at the back of the plane, would this be a problem? What if Casey Kaseem joined them?  Smile
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:58 am

Yes, Trident, we've all gone mad. Shit, man...if it saves one life or calms the nerves of even one fearful flyer not to see people stand around in a group together, is it all that bad. Are you so opposed to that?

Everyone seems so unbelievably self-centered when it comes to anything having to do with security. If it inconveniences you in the least, then it's obviously just another "ridiculous idea" that doesn't need to be in place beacuse it prevents you from hanging around the lavs with 9 of your friends for half an hour, or causes you to remove your shoes and go through security a second time.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
Sabena 690
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:59 am

Especially if the FA's could see that the passengers weren't Middle Eastern.

Quite a strong accusation... So people from the ME are bad and evil when some of them are chatting with eachother? It's even in their culture to come together to chat.

Remember that an Islamist is not bad at all, we are talking about the extremists over here. And the prove that those fundamentalists can not be compared with the normal Islamist is that, during the recent bomb blasts, a lot of Islamists have died.

And when you think you are smart with saying that ME people may not gather together in the galley, the terrorists will be even smarter to put people with a non-ME look on the aircrafts if they really want to do something.

Frederic
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:00 am

I would say the world has not "GONE MAD" but gotten "MAD" and is sending a clear message that, if at all humanly possible 9-11 will not happen again!

My opinion in a nutt shell.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
teahan
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:01 am

Source. It is being discussed on Flyertalk, PPRUNE, several aviation Yahoo Groups and Cabin Crew websites.

I wonder how they expect to deal with queues in front of the lavatories? Or Virgin Atlantic?s bar?

Next people will be given random seats to ensure they are not seated next to anyone they know rendering them unable to plot anything as a group.

Jeremiah
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
trident2e
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:03 am

FLY777UAL - what an outburst! The reason I think we've all gone mad is that if you think about it logically what possible benefit can this ridiculous rule bring? If there are a group of terrorists on board it's already far too late to save anyone. Having a rule that prevents them from congregating anywhere is just plain stupid.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:05 am

How surprising this comes from 'the country of freedom'! Big grin

Freedom indeed, but when this goes on, cameras will be placed everywhere to keep an eye on everyone; when you do something 'suspicious' in an airport you will be arrested etc etc, all this in 'free' world...
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:06 am

Tri:

To be very honest and not being able to get into detail. Yes that rule could make or break an incident. It is really not the silly when you know all the facts of things that are going on. I do wish I could tell you more. But please trust me on this one.

Safe Flying Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
SWAFA30
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:07 am

At WN we have been doing this for months. We handle it very simply. You can stand around in the back galley, what little there is of it, all you want. You just can't stand in front of the cockpit door/forward galley area. It is a pain to continue to have to harp on it, people naturally want to form lines for the forward lav or stand in the galley/entry area to stretch on long flights. However, when we explain that the security of the flight deck must be protected at all costs and people milling around in that area make this difficult, they seem much more willing to comply. As is the case with all regulations, you tend to get much more compliance if a logical explanition accompanies the rule as a opposed to an arbitrary "because we said so".

 
FLY777UAL
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:07 am

Not a strong accusation at all.

Ever heard the expression "one bad apple spoils the whole barrell"? That's exactly what's happened thanks to Mohammed Atta, etc.

I'm not just an ignorant American, Freddy, and I know thanks to common sense, as well as daily interaction with many Middle Easterners, that an Islamist is not bad at all.

All I'm trying to say is that Flight Attendants are unbelievably good judges of character and behavior onboard. If they smell anything wrong, then they'll be all over it. Middle Eastern passengers attract a certain kind of attention to themselves no matter what. It's just the whole stigma from 9/11. If there are 2 Middle Eastern passengers onboard a flight filled with 98 other WASPs, then they're obviously going to attract some attention. It's the same as when you see a hick walking through Saks or Nieman Marcus. Would be like seeing Donald Trump shopping for clothes at Walmart.

Of course the terrorists would be smart to put people who don't look ME on the planes...and I'm sure they've thought about that before. Like I said earlier, FA's are very good with behavior. If you don't look the part, you can sure tell that you're going to act the part. I doubt that the hijackers on 9/11 were calm individuals...not hard to suspect that shit might be going down.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
AlekToronto
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:09 am

Very sad if this is indeed true..
I believe that all security should be taken care of before the flight takes off...I guess some people here would rather have all passengers tied down to their seats during flight, never speaking, walking, doing anything...remain quiet and docile..wouldn't the airlines love that??
If I cant get up during a 14 hour flight and stretch my legs and chat with friends..then it has gone to far...
Its not about being "self-centered" as some have mentioned...its about being Human!

cheers!
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:10 am

Tri--if you went through or knew about onboard safety training, you would be able to see exactly why it can and does make the difference.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
Sabena 690
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:11 am

That's a whole other point, FLY777UAL, now I understand you better...

But I still find it's going a bit far.

Frederic
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:12 am

Alex-

Get real. Being human is fine. Getting up on a 14 hour flight is fine. They're not chaining you to your seat, the announcement is just meant so that you and a gaggle of other people don't get up and chit chat for half an hour. If you get up with a couple of other people and talk for a few minutes, that's fine.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:13 am

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Once again the crew is stuck in the middle. We can only do our job as perscribed by the F.A.A. and T.S.A. Also, to do our best to protect everyone on board to the best of our ability using the tools we have.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
AlekToronto
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:26 am

It is amazing how easily Airline Staff is offended when passengers (customers) are upset by more and more stupid rules.
Don't get me wrong - I am 100 percent for strict airline security before and during the flight - however this rule is just stupid. If I want to stand up during the flight with my parents, kids, etc...why should that be suspicious? I mean I was already cleared by TSA..CAPS, strip searches, etc...why is there so much suspicion in the air for petes sake!

I know that being a Flight Attendant is no piece of cake..and nowhere near the job it used to be...but FLYGUYCLT..realistically what can the F/A's do in case of a hijacking??? You guys get self defense training? If not I think that should be part of the training..curently against a group of terrorists you guys are toast.

Bottom line - terrorists plan - if they REALLY want to hijack a plane they will train to get around the "safeguards" and just do it.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:31 am

9-11 will happen again, I can guarantee it. It will happen one day every year. But the tragedies of 9-11-01 will Never happen again as long as security is tight. 9-11 will happen this year as it has in 02, 03.
Puhdiddle
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:33 am

Alek,

There are lots of things I and my co workers can do. I have not seen anywhere that YOU and YOUR children can't get up and stretch. Even walk around the airplane a little. But if you get up, and other passengers get up, and start a social hour in one part of the aircraft. Then that is what the rule is for. Make sense now ?

Thanks for your side. I hope you can understand the other side.


Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
YWG
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:34 am

I flew into and out of Honolulu from Vancouver a few days ago and heard nothing of this sorts.
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
teahan
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:43 am

@BR715-A1-30:

9-11 will happen again, I can guarantee it. It will happen one day every year.

Right and you can tell this how?

@YWG:

This is only 2-3 days old.

Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:44 am

9/11 -- the day itself-- not terrorism -- will happen each day. It'll happen on September 11th, 2004, September 11th, 2005, etc. Kinda threw me for a loop the first time I read it...

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
ba757
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:44 am

I don't tend to congregate around toilets anyway... can get you some odd looks!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Adam
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:46 am

Here's the real question, though:

what is to become of the mile high club? Ahh, but they didn't say you couldn't congregate in the toilets!

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
Airbus_A340
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:58 am

So what about the ideas like on Singapore Airlines new A345 Leadership where passengers are supposed be able to meet and talk. I would guess other airlines won't be able to implement those kind of ideas- like in the bar of Virgin's aircraft.
People. They make an airline. www.cathaypacific.com
 
Skymonster
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:01 am

I can see it now...

Hmmmm. I want to go to the bathroom, but there's someone in the lav, and someone standing outside... Best cross my legs and wait a bit.

Two minutes later... The person in the lav comes out... Quick, jump over the person in the aisle seat, walk towards the front... Damn, the person three rows in front has gotten out in front of me. Back to my seat because I wouldn't want to congregate. Cross legs again.

Two more minutes later... Up again, hack off the person in the aisle seat. Start to run to front of the cabin. Damn, its the person who's six rows in front who's beaten me this time. Walk back. Climb across the aisle sitter again. Cross legs harder.

Three minutes later this time. I'm already half out of my seat, waiting for the lav door to open. And it does. And the person waiting is in as I leap towards the front of the cabin. But the person just behind the lavs gets up. Damn, damn, damn. I desperately want a pee, but I can't congregate. The person in the aisle seat next to me starts to glare as I walk back towards my seat, eye's clearly indicating they're thinking "don't you dare come back in and then get up again".

Wonder how long I can keep crossing my legs...

====

"The US State Department demands that passengers are not allowed to congregate in groups around the toilets nor anywhere in the aircraft."

What a f***ing farce! The world gone mad. Of course, there are vital airplane controls close to the bathrooms and if passengers congregate in those areas one of them might, undetected, interfere with those controls and affect the flight.

Some people need to get lives, and it isn't the people who find this latest insane instruction to be ludicrous.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
ahlfors
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:25 am

This announcement was made on an Air Jamaica flight from Grenada to JFK that I was on New Year's day, but a similar announcement was NOT made during my Delta flight JFK-CDG. I suppose those Grenadans still carry a grudge from that invasion two decades ago so they are a security risk (sarcasm).

Thomas
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:26 am

Congregate does not mean, no waiting to use the lav.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
carduelis
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:29 am

Has nobody in the US authorities ever experienced the early morning loo queue(s) before/after breakfast and before landing on overnight transatlantic flights to Europe?


Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:30 am

We had heard that the announcement was being made on foreign carrier flights coming into the United States.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
artsyman
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:32 am

There is a very obvious reason for this ruling, and it does actually make sense. The reason for it is that the Federal Air Marshals do not always get a first class seat. A few months ago they made the US carriers remove the curtains separating the classes, and you will now see that the US carriers have a rope, or somthing similar separating the classes. The reason this happened was that the TSA was pissed off to not always be in FC. So they said that if they were going to find themselves in coach from time to time, then they needed line of site to the cockpit at all times. The ruling on the lavs is based on the same theme. When people congregate around the lavs, it blocks the ability of the FAM to see the cockpit, or anything suspicious going on if they happen to be in coach.

Like the rule or hate it, it does make sense

J
 
mjszanto
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:34 am

I think this is kind of annoying, but I can't oppose it, because it sounds like a somewhat reasonable security precaution.
 
GLAguy
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:35 am

Flyguyclt: "Congregate does not mean, no waiting to use the lav."

I'm not trying to be smart here, but what exactly does it mean in this context?

Most flights have at some time or another (usually after meal service) a small congregation of passengers waiting to use the lavs, or on a long-haul stretching their legs and having a chat near the lavs, rear exit or galley areas.

Garry
 
VSGirl
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:36 am

The few times I have flown charter flights with Virgin Atlantic, our F/As have asked this from the passengers anyway, of course with out the US State Department or the word demand...

Maybe airlines should ask for more bathrooms on their aircraft...

Kimberly  Smile
 
teahan
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:36 am

@Artsyman:

But on non-US airlines (which are being given this directive), there are curtains seperating classes anyway.

Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:37 am

Artsyman:

Thank you very much. And welcome to my respected user list. Sometimes a rule does not make sense to some. But if you truly know the reason why. It really is a good rule.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
artsyman
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:46 am

But on non-US airlines (which are being given this directive), there are curtains seperating classes anyway.
****

The Non US carriers cannot have the rule enforced, they can only be advised. This is the same as when the NTSB makes suggestions on aircraft safety and mechanical issues, the US carriers must adhere to them, but the international ones do not have to, although they generally do.

Jeremy
Ps Flyguyclt, thanks for the nice words
 
Espion007
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:05 am

con·gre·gate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (knggr-gt)
tr. & intr.v. con·gre·gat·ed, con·gre·gat·ing, con·gre·gates
To bring or come together in a group, crowd, or assembly. See Synonyms at gather.

adj. (-gt)
Gathered; assembled.
Involving a group: congregate living facilities for senior citizens

__________________________________________________________________

But this really depends on what the airlines consider a "group".Some might consider people in line a group,others maybe not,soooo......


group ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grp)
n.
An assemblage of persons or objects gathered or located together; an aggregation: a group of dinner guests; a group of buildings near the road.
Two or more figures that make up a unit or design, as in sculpture.
A number of individuals or things considered together because of similarities: a small group of supporters across the country.
Linguistics. A category of related languages that is less inclusive than a family.

-----------------
so,to me it is saying,two or more people cannot gather near the lavs for any reason.it may not be that strict now,but it will be eventualy
Snakes on a Plane!
 
GLAguy
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:12 am

Next message from the FAA:

The US State Department DEMANDS the following:

1. Random seating on aircraft only - no pre-selection by pax cos they might be at an advantage over Air Marshalls.

2. No food or beverage service cos trolleys and Flight Attendants get in the way/line of sight of Air Marshalls.

3. All passengers to be gagged whilst on the aircraft so that terrorists onboard can't discuss their plans to take control of the aircraft.

4. Passengers to be catheterised and fitted with a urine bag prior to boarding so that no=one needs to use the toilets.

5. Passengers to be heavily tranquilised on boarding cos only that way can we be sure that they won't be up to anything that endangers the aircraft.

 Nuts

I know, completely ridiculous but it's all getting a bit ridiculous.

I'm so looking forward to my next US flight  Yeah sure
 
artsyman
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:19 am

In what way is it becoming ridiculous ? I can hear you saying it, but it really just appears as an over reaction. Like the hysteria over the recent flight cancellations. There have been 12 cancelled, and about 700,000 not cancelled, yet people on here are screaming and complaining. What is the big deal about not congregating at the lavs ?. Especially when there is a decent reason for it.

J
 
PiedmontGirl
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:25 am

Folks, all this amounts to is not having a bunch of people -- any people -- gathered up in front of the cockpit door.

It should be reasonably obvious why this is being done. Why have a group of people in front of the area that it is most necessary to protect.

A lot of pilots have been telling their flight attendants for over two years now not to let the passengers congregate in front of the cockpit door or in the galleys. I'm sure that some of you rode on flights and had no idea that this had even taken place.

It's an odd thing, but a lot of people think that there are only lavs in the ends of the plane. On smaller, single aisled airplanes that's true. However, on the bigger birds, they are distributed through out the cabin. I've seen people on an airplane no bigger than a 75 or 321 get up and walk right by a lav and head for one in the end.
 
User avatar
yyz717
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:29 am

A lot of pilots have been telling their flight attendants for over two years now not to let the passengers congregate in front of the cockpit door or in the galleys.

......and passengers are telling pilots that there are not enough washrooms on aircraft hence the need for the line-ups. Pilots can pass THAT message up to mgmt.

Why do you think people line up? I've never met anyone who enjoyed lining up for the bathroom.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
aviatortj
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:29 am

Right, but what is the reason for cancelling them? Are there problems with the security searches prior to the flight?
 
SlamClick
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:31 am

The terrorists have very few effective weapons in their bag of tricks. The most effective is being unpredictable.

Being predictable is the worst flaw a military plan could have. Being predictable would render any counter-terrorism efforts completely ineffective. You complainers here so often do not even read the earlier posts where your question was answered or explained. How on earth could you be expected to understand a counter-terrorism program when you don't even understand the thread, so far. You are not being told very much because you don't need to understand.

I hope to hell the counter-terrorism efforts confuse you and make no sense to you. That means there is a fair chance that the occasional terrorist will misjudge them too.

Again, talk is cheap. Constant complaint and criticism makes you sound like a fool.

What is YOUR solution?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
carduelis
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RE: "Pax Not Allowed To Congregate Near Toilets"

Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:36 am

Artsyman

Here we go - from what you are saying in your earlier thread, the Air Marshalls are already dictating to the airlines and other aviation authorities

Let the airlines operate their airlines, and get security do their job by stopping suspect people/items boarding the aircraft

The Captain is in charge of his aircraft - nobody else, particulalry some so-called government agency

There is no place for guns on aircraft

For some sensible and knowledgeable, and totally professional words from those who actually do know, go take a look at the BALPA website.

If you haven't done it, let me tell you that the early morning loo queues on overnight transatlantics are NOT small, there is a large congregation at each.

On another topic - on BA's website you can buy a Domestic London Manchester return for GBP30 - govt taxes and security add up to an additional GBP28.40!

We are living in a ridiculous world, dictated by faddish government 'officials'




Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!

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