jmets18
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Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:20 am

so yesterday i flew ROC-ATL on a CRJ70, and at about the halfway point of our flight, the pilot walked out of the cockpit, into the bathroom, and then served himself a cup of coffee and chatted with the flight attendants. i thought the tsa said that once the cockpit door was closed, it was not to be re-opened. i know this doesn't make sense for longer flights where there are multiple crews...so can someone please explain to me what in fact the law states. if in fact there even is such thing. just found it a little odd, that's all.

thanks
 
C17Glbm
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:23 am

I don't exactly know the laws that have benn added, changed, etc.
However, there was a time where each pilot on short haul and domestic flights was allowed 5 minutes out of the flightdeck.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:27 am

Maybe he had his weapon hidden!
 Nuts

Michael/SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
PiedmontGirl
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:28 am

The pilot can leave the flight deck for long enough to go to the bathroom. I mean, there's no lav in the cockpit, ya know??

Visiting with the F/A is not included in the "time to go to the bathroom" thing. To say a few words is OK, but not an actual visit.

Let me ask, while he was talking with the F/A did anyone else go to the lav? If so, he might have been waiting for that person to leave the lav and return to his seat before he opened to cockpit door to re-enter it. Just a thought on the matter.
 
AirOne
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:28 am

On a Comair flight between CVG and DCA the pilot went out to go the the bathroom and the flight attendant took his seat at the controls. THen he got himself a drink then she came out and he went back in.

I thought that was wierd.

AirOne
 
KLM777
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:29 am

A pilot is also just a human and so he/she needs to visit the bathroom from time to time. I therefore think they cannot keep the door shut all the time.

Kind regards,

Jeroen

[Edited 2004-01-05 20:49:14]
Every landing is a controlled crash
 
MarcJet66
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:31 am

If this law is applied to all pilots and all revenue aircraft in US territory, it just shows how paranoid a Government can be. Maybe someone could just walk in to the cockpit and hijack the plane. But it didn't happen. What is all the security at the airports for? Why to we have to go to a strip mode at the airports and them not have the captain walking by and talking to the pax as in the old times??
Are we getting to far or is it really happening out there?
Marcos
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:35 am

You only have multiple crews on flights of 8-10 hours plus depending on the airline. Don't think anyone expects flight crew not to go to the toilet or drink for that length of time!

The flighdeck door will be regularly opened - the cabin crew are supposed to offer the flighdeck crew drinks every so often to combat the negative effects of dehydration. Many airlines still have crew food even on short flights, the door will have to be opened for this. And if the flightcrew need the toilet, again the door will have to be opened.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:42 am

My knowledge comes from observation on my many United and US Airways flights. So it's observation, likely not the regulation.

On United flights with a two person cockpit, when the captain or first officer leaves the flight deck to use the facilities, two flight attendants go up front to the galley/lav area in front of the locked door, they block the aisle with a food cart. Once this is done, the pilot or first officer exits, one of the two flight attendants then enters the cockpit. When the lav visit is finished, the FA in the flight deck exits and the pilot/first officer reenters. The FA remaining in the galley/lav area stands behind the food cart, watching the aisle and no passenger is allowed to enter the area while this procedure is underway. I assume this is done so the remaining pilot doesn't have to get up to open the door or for security reasons they want two crew on the flight deck at all times. I've never seen a pilot or first officer linger after he/she finishes the lav visit.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
jmets18
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:43 am

PiedmontGirl,

no one else used the bathroom while he was visiting with the flight attendant. he was onlying talking with her for like 2 minutes.

obviously people need to go to the bathroom...
 
C17Glbm
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:44 am

Crosswind
"You only have multiple crews on flights of 8-10 hours plus depending on the airline. Don't think anyone expects flight crew not to go to the toilet or drink for that length of time!"


This is what I thought until recently being on board a transatlantic flight of a US southern based airline. During the entire flight the flightdeck door did not once open and after landing, I visited the cockpit and pretty much saw the pilots heading for the lav. The cockpit itself was trashed with bottles of water, food, blankets and pillows that apparently had been taken into the flightdeck before pushback. I then asked the pilots why they couldn't receive food or drinks during the flight or also not use the lav and they informed me that their airline's current policy prohibited them from opening the door after pushback.
Somehow odd. What do they want them to do??? Pee in their pants  Big grin
 
PiedmontGirl
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:52 am

AirOne:

On a Comair flight between CVG and DCA the pilot went out to go the the bathroom and the flight attendant took his seat at the controls. THen he got himself a drink then she came out and he went back in.

She didn't take his seat at the controls. She stepped into the cockpit and waited for him to get back. She was standing there to unlock the door so he could get back in. The alternative would be for the other pilot to have to get up out of his seat, look out the peephole, and let the pilot back into the cockpit. It works better and easier to have the F/A do that little door opening chore.

Lots of people think the F/A is sitting in the co-pilot's seat at the controls when s/he goes in there.  Smile That little dance looks kind of funny when you don't know what's going on.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:56 am

Some of you folks out there really do think airline employees are not human!! How long can you hold it? Of course they are allowed to use the facitlites.



Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
PiedmontGirl
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:04 am

Jmets18:

no one else used the bathroom while he was visiting with the flight attendant. he was onlying talking with her for like 2 minutes.

That's fine. He went to the lav, got coffee, and exchanged a few words with the F/A. Not a big deal.
 
VSGirl
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:05 am

The FD is not a jail  Big grin

Kimberly.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:06 am

Kimberly,

But sometimes we F/A's would like it to be.


hehehe

 Smile

Safe Flying !
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:10 am

I have seen different routines on different airlines, and even on different types of planes within one airline. For example, on a CO ERJ from MSP to EWR last month, the F/A entered the cockpit while one of the pilots went to use the lavatory. However, on CO 757s from EWR to LIM and back last summer, whenever one of the pilots left the cockpit, the other was left alone. Upon returning, the one who had left would pick up the intercom and say a word or two (presumably some sort of password), and the door would open. Can the door be unlocked from the pilots' seats on the 757? That was my guess, since it didn't look like the seated pilot had to get up in order to unlock the door, but I'm sure there are crewmembers here who know more about this...
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
UngoMongo
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:11 am

Last night I flew to Copenhagen from Kaliningrad. The pilot went to the restroom and then chatted with the flight attendants. Before he passed me, I asked nicely, if I could see the flightdeck? Sure, come along... I went out there, and he offered me the jump seat while landing at CPH. That was cool  Smile So next time, if a crew from the flightdeck walk past you, ask him gently.

Cheers
Becoming a dad is the greatest.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:12 am

FOX:

And we crew members are not saying a word !

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
jmets18
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:13 am

ok, ok....come on now. i wasn't meaning they were supposed to be locked up in there. you see all these new rules on cnn and everything, so i was just curious. when people gotta go, people gotta go!
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:14 am

Jmets18:

Thank You !

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:14 am

Fair enough, Flyguyclt.  Smile
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
jmets18
Posts: 175
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:17 am

and if anyone is curious...it was a comair flight.

i wasn't overly concerned by any means. but the look on some peoples faces was of utter surprise. that's why i thought i'd pose the question on here.
 
MarcJet66
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:18 am

AA7573E

Thank you for being so light on me. As a matter of fact I am a British Citizen for the last 12 years, where I am living at the moment. I was lucky enough to be born in a country where people doesn't seen to harm other. That's why maybe we don't have terrorists trying to knock down our skyscrapers.
I understand pretty well what is going on in the world and maybe the thick skull here is you who doesn't use nice words to direct yourself and opinions.
I've been flying around 25 times between LHR and Dulles, JFK, EWR, LAX, MIA and other destinations in your country. I really feel safe and secure when I see security checks at the gates. I don't mind striping myself down to my skin in front of other people if necessary to my safety. What I was trying to say is that we are living in a very different world these days and I was asking in a romantic way, lets say, what happens with the old days, where we could go to the cockpit and share our opinions with the big men up front.
I do apologize if I, in my ignorance of the English Language, couldn't express myself. Participating in these forums with nice people like you might do some good to me.

God Bless you, Broz!!!

Marcos
Marcos
 
SlamClick
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:20 am

Pilots are allowed to leave the flight deck attendant to "their physiological needs." Rules also apply to the pilot remaining seated at the controls and possibly donning an oxygen mask.

Clearly using the lav was within the spirit of this regulation.
It could be argued that a cup of coffee was too. To combat drowsiness. That is, if it was coffee in the cup. Could have been water or juice which are better for keeping hydrated.

I don't think flirting with a flight attendant would represent the sort of "physiological need" they were referring to. However, we have no idea of the topic of their conversation. It was probably a friendly "how's it going" and a brief exchange of things like ETA and weather at destination and so on. No abuse there.

I have seen mny a flight attendant in the cockpit playing "hall monitor" sit sideways on a pilot seat, but never be seated "at the controls."
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
jmets18
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:22 am

MarcJet66:

the second and third sentence of your response to AA7573E may have you treading some pretty thin ice with other Americans on this board. so i'd double check how you respond to peoples critisism in the future.
 
PiedmontGirl
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:33 am

Jmets18:

ok, ok....come on now. i wasn't meaning they were supposed to be locked up in there. you see all these new rules on cnn and everything, so i was just curious. when people gotta go, people gotta go!

Just my opinion here, but I think at some point the airplane manufacturers are going to start designing cockpits with some sort of lavatory facilities. I really do. Even if it's just a little toilet with a sink attached to the top -- the whole thing covered by a curtain.

The idea of locking up pilots in the cockpit for looooooong flights is just looney. I mean -- everyone on this planet has to go.
 
MarcJet66
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:33 am

Jmets18

With all respect I have to Americans, as I have many friends there and they are absolutely great people. I do not have anything against any nation, Thank God for that. What I don't think is that anyone from any nation can call me thick skull just because I still dream with a world were people live in peace. We do not have in Brazil this hatred as Americans have to suffer from so many nations many times due to their desire to help people suffering under terrible regimes. I am very concerned and I believe US is a world that embraces everyone that try to get a better life there as my fellows Brazilians living there.
What I do not agree is the way our fellow made his coment on me like if I was coming from the Amazon Forest for the first time and expressing my opinion in things I never saw before.
I add to this. USA is one of my favorite countries, and a Country is made by its people.
I hope you understand me.

Marcos
Marcos
 
jhooper
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:35 am

§ 91.105 Flight crewmembers at stations.

(a) During takeoff and landing, and while en route, each required flight crewmember shall --

(1) Be at the crewmember station unless the absence is necessary to perform duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft or in connection with physiological needs; and

(2) Keep the safety belt fastened while at the crewmember station.

(b) Each required flight crewmember of a U.S.-registered civil aircraft shall, during takeoff and landing, keep his or her shoulder harness fastened while at his or her assigned duty station. This paragraph does not apply if --

(1) The seat at the crewmember's station is not equipped with a shoulder harness; or

(2) The crewmember would be unable to perform required duties with the shoulder harness fastened.

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34294, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-231, 57 FR 42671, Sept. 15, 1992]

Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
AA717driver
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AA CFO Resignation...

Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:46 am

Pre-9/11, I went out of the cockpit even on relatively short flights(STL-ICT). Small bladder, large Diet Coke consumption. Something's gotta give. Big grin

Post-9/11, I still get up to visit the lav and get myself a soda--in my world(regardless of airline policy) the FA must come up and stay in the cockpit until the absent crewmember returns. I also like the idea of another FA blocking the fwd galley with the serving cart.

The idea of a crew going long haul with no pee-breaks is absurd. Maybe the "southern" airline installed crew lavs in the front of their widebodies... Insane TC
FL450, M.85
 
Big777jet
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:01 am

Recently, during Salt Lake City Olympic 2002. My friend flew to Salt Lake City on American MD-80. The captain got out of the cockpit. He went to the bathroom and then went back to flight deck. She told me that she thought pilots must stay at all the time. I told her no. Only need to go bathroom. It's okay.

Big777jet


 
PVD757
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:08 am

MARCJET66: If I may speak for AA757 a little here...There have been several threads on this very forum latley that have included some very strong statements about our country, government, and related matters. Many of these statements were totally unfounded and simply ignorant. The USA is the first to lend a helping hand to those in need and although some of our leaders don't always make the best decisions on what is helpful to others, we are at least trying. It is an absolut shame that we have become targeted as an evil people living our greedy lives at everyone else's expense, and that this hatred has evolved into a passion to kill harmless, innocent citizens of our country. I worked with a women (Rene Newell) and knew her family, who on the first 767 to hit the towers that day, and to sit here and read statements that it was our own fault and that we brought this upon ourselves is quite frankly gutless and heartless. I am not saying that you made any of these statements, but remember, in a time where many Americans (like some of these security measures) are a little jittery and knee-jerk, the slightest remark may set us off a little.
 
aa757first
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:10 am

Instead of a full fledged cockpit bathroom, how about a door into the first class lav? The door into the cockpit is of the same quality as the regular door. When the pilot needs to relieve himself, he checks the "occupied" sign, and the calls up an FA to see if anyone is in the lav. Then the walks in, locks the main door into the lav, uses the bathroom, unlocks the door, and moves into the cockpit. Is there enough room up there for a second door?

AAndrew
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:17 am

Giv'em bottles up there which they can pee into! It's such a freaking risk when they're leaving the FD!
It should actually be locked and only opened by at least 3 TSA officers securing each other!

Or we just get a grip on ourselves and all have a cup of coffee...

Have a good time, guys! The new year already served enough trouble....
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
PiedmontGirl
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:28 am

Aa777first:

Instead of a full fledged cockpit bathroom, how about a door into the first class lav?

This would mean that every passenger who went into the F/C lav would have unwatched access to a cockpit door. I don't think that's a real good idea.

I'm having mental pictures of the pilots (on the previously mentioned "southern airline" that has now forbidden their pilots to leave the cockpit for any reason) urinating in the empty water bottles.

If the intention is to keep the pilots confined to the cockpit gate to gate, then there will have to be steps taken to make them self contained in the cockpit. This would mean at least a mini lav and some beverage supplies. It is inhumane to attempt to turn the cockpit into a prison cell.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:33 am

In manyairplanes it would be sufficient to move the cockpit door a bit aft, making the forward lav a pure crew lav.
On the other hand, esp. on long flights, the guys would like to have a stretch every now and then.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:42 am

Calm down kids! The pilot can leave the pit to do what he needs to do and an F/A will set in his seat. When the pilot is out of the pit the officer will put on an oxygen mask and take control. No big deal!

/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
vafi88
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:22 am

"""the tsa said that once the cockpit door was closed, it was not to be re-opened"""

Who cares what the TSA says??? Plus, the co-pilot can fully fly the plane without the Pilot.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
Brido
Posts: 154
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:42 am

Of course the pilots come out of the flightdeck and FAs go in! The door doesn't stay closed/bolted the whole flight...

My airline now has us FAs making the "no line-ups for the lavatories" announcement. Some of our pilots will call before they come out and do not want **anyone** standing whatsoever when the door is opened. Also we block the aisle with a trolley whenever the flightdeck door is opened.

I had not heard till now about the FA going into the flightdeck. Maybe some airlines have their pilots look throught the peephole and all that but ours just unlock it with a switch to allow us entry. Same thing if a pilot goes to the lav they just call up and ask the other pilot to "buzz" them in.

About the FA going to the flightdeck while a pilot's in the lav: What about solo-Flight Attendant aircraft? So the pax are just left on their own? With a pilot in the lav? Hmmmm....
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:24 am

Hey! Good news!

Michael Moore just told me there is no terrorist threat!

It is in his book "Dude, where's my country?" Chapter 4. Don't want to mis-quote so I memorized it.

"There is no terrorist threat."

It's what he said and he won an Oscar for his honesty.
I'm so happy!

Oh, I didn't actually BUY his book. I just checked that out in the store.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
buckfifty
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:49 am

It's not a preposterous idea. Most 744's have a lav in the extended cockpit area, which includes the crew rest bunks.
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:50 am

My guess is this "unnamed Southern airline" is using piddle packs for their pilots seeing as how that's what the USAF and USN do for their fighter pilots.

At any rate, I've never seen a pilot leave the cockpit, but then again I've usually flown shorter flight legs.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
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AA CFO Resignation...

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:56 am

Nudelhirsch--I don't think any of us want's the Capt. trying to pee into the opening of an Evian bottle at night in even light turbulence! Big grin Maybe we could have a TSA security specialist stationed in the cockpit to hold the bottle and the, er, 'efflux' to ensure a tight seal... Insane

Talk about a hazard to flight. What if the cap came off and the contents of the bottle drained into the electrical compartment? Then it would be really dark AND smell really bad.TC

P.S.--The authority of the TSA ends at the cabin door!
FL450, M.85
 
jhooper
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:05 am

P.S.--The authority of the TSA ends at the cabin door!

then why are you following all their rules???  Nuts
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:34 am

Again, they're probably using piddle packs (basically a Zip-loc baggie with a sponge inside) if their airline forbids them to leave the cockpit to relieve themselves.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
MarcoPolo747
Posts: 446
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:46 am

IT IS REALLY COMFORTING TO LEARN THAT WE STILL HAVE HUMAN PILOTS FROM ALL COUNTRIES WHO NEED TO GO TO THE TOILET, WHO NEED A CUP OF COFFEE DURING THE FLIGHT OR EVEN FIND 2 MINUTES TO CHAT TO F/As. AND/OR PASSENGERS.

I FEEL RELIEVED.
 
mog
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:12 pm

I think what passengers should be more worried about if they see a pilot drinking airliner coffee is that the pilot must be a very new pilot, maybe less than a hundred hours total flying time.

Think about it, how long would you, as a passenger, take to swear off airline coffee if you had to fly six days a week?

""I'm not the flying pilot,
I'm just another traveler,
Would rather be with the merlot,
But am stuck with the dishwater.""

+++

Back to the topic, I think the law states that for all commercial airplanes, even grown-up go-karts like the CRJ, need experienced pilots in command. In my opinion, I think I would like to see at least 3000 hours on a pilot, and by that time, I would think, most airline pilots would have given up on airline coffee.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:27 pm

Marco:

I'll second that !

Safe Flying Bud !  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13237
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:37 pm

the pilot walked out of the cockpit, into the bathroom, and then served himself a cup of coffee

Well I hope he washed his hands first!  Smile
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
buckfifty
Posts: 1278
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RE: Pilot Serving Himself Coffee...midflight.

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:50 pm

Oh, and another thing, on long haul flights, you may see pilots in full uniform walking about the cabin (on Airbuses mostly). People are often surprised, and think, "omg, who's still flying the plane?" Old ladies especially.

This happens quite often, especially when the passengers are too busy reading their magazines. They'll neglect to hear the speech made by the captain saying that relief crews are on this flight, and once in a while, you'll see pilots trying to drag their arses in and out of the crew rest area.