ConcordeBoy
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Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:23 am

Title pretty much says it all.

Are there any circumstances which would have prevented WN from doing at JFK what B6 has done (i.e., muscling its way to the top)?

Did they ever seriously look at the possibility of JFK ops? NYC remains a glaring weakness in their system, with no alterative likely.
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FoxBravo
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:31 am

I'm sure they considered it when they started ISP service, but I believe they decided against the three NYC airports due to what they perceived as too much congestion to allow their type of quick-turnaround operation. IMHO, yes, they did drop the ball at least to some extent, since it does not look like they will be a significant player in the NYC market in the foreseeable future. My guess is that, had they known how wildly successful JetBlue would be at JFK, they would have jumped in there while they had a chance. But hindsight is 20/20, and we'll never know for sure...
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
prosa
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:44 am

I wouldn't call New York a "glaring weakness" in WN's route system as ISP is a reasonable distance from the city and from parts of the metro area. I certainly see enough airport pax using the railroad connection into Manhattan every day. It's really only New Jersey and the northern suburbs (Westchester, Rockland etc.) that are far enough from ISP that they can be said to lack WN service. And some of the New Jersey suburbs will be within reasonable distance from WN's new station at PHL.
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STT757
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:21 am

The problem WN faces is that B6 cut them off from NYC, basically relegating WN at Islip to Long Island and "some" Queens traffic.

Less people are likely to make the trek out to Islip to fly WN when JFK and B6 are significantly closer to the majority of the 25 Million NYC Area residents, the LIRR station at Islip will help but does not hold a candle to the convenience of the Airtrain service at JFK with it's connections to LIRR and NYC Subway.

It has been said (by myself here, and industry "experts") that WN's experience in the NYC market is the main reason why they went into PHL when everybody else was predicting Allentown, Trenton, Atlantic City etc..

Jetblue and the geography of the Northeast has forced WN to rethink their policy of serving airports on the "outskirts" of major Cities to take advantage of less delays and cheaper operating costs, in Southern California, Florida or Texas where Cities are spread out and the populations sprawled out over a vast areas the WN plan works.

In the Northeast where populations are highly concentrated and roads heavily congested people will avoid long drives by any costs, meaning WN was not going to draw from NYC proper tremendously with Islip to begin with. B6 trumped them by launching their service at JFK, where they lucked out by TWA being bought by AA and ending up with T-6 virtually to themselves within two years of their launching service.

It also helps that NYC's Senate delagation (Shumer), Giulianni, the Port Authority etc came to bat for B6 because they promised the first thing they would do is to launch flights from JFK to Upstate NY and drop the astronomical fares. That was a political decison which actualy worked and lowered the fares, which began the Media love affair with B6 in NYC as the Politicians were taunting them to the NY Post etc every chance they got which gave a certain amount of credibility to the airline in the eyes of the Media and therefore the public.

The only way WN could try to steal B6's NYC thunder is to go to JFK or EWR, EWR has no gates and it's delays make PHL look like Pierre South Dakota and lighting striking twice at JFK for both B6 and WN is highly unlikely. It would be an uphill battle all the way, and similar problem may develop for WN in the Boston area. Depending on how well B6 establishes themselves at Logan, and to what extent they are successful.

Im not saying that WN's Islip, Manchester and Providence Rhode Island operations are not going to continue to be profitable. However Im sure the boys in Dallas are going to have to do something they don't often do, rework their projections for growth in the Northeast "downward".

Unless WN's decides to make a go of it in EWR or JFK I see little hope of them getting a foot in the door of the largest aviation market in the WORLD!

Newburgh, maybe but it's further from the City than Islip and the population starts thinning in numbers and size of wallet the further North you go from Rockland and Westchester Counties.

Westchester County airport is out of the question for WN, Nimby's make the rules at the airport so much so that they had the parking garages closed before 7Am to discourage early morning flights.

The only other area airport would be Trenton NJ, too close to their "new" PHL operation though, it will be interesting to see how WN plays things over the next couple years in the Northeast (particularly the NYC area).


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
petazulu
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:37 am

I have an idea- How about Southwest sets up 1-2 gate operation at all 3 NYC airports and feed those flights directly to other larger SW operations. These planes could be isolated to only NYC routes- which would avoid systemwide delays. It also would allow SW to generate huge feed for all the rest of their flights.

I know that isn't their style- but in order to get into New York City, do you think it could be considered? NYC is kind of unique in that way- there is presently no other viable airport than one of the big three if you really want to compete for our business.

 
FoxBravo
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:43 am

PROSA, I don't think many people west of the Queens/Nassau border use ISP on a regular basis. I have actually never met anyone who has traveled from Manhattan to fly out of ISP. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it definitely isn't common. ISP has a large market of its own, but it's really a separate market from NYC. I still do not see WN as a major player in the NYC market.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
ckfred
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:45 am

Not going into JFK may explain why WN went into PHL. Normally, WN avoids congested airports, and PHL is congested. My wife used to fly to PHL a lot for business, and her departures were always late, simply because of the volume of traffic.

 
SWAFA30
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:29 am

Honestly, I wonder if we had entered metro NYC prior to B6 if we would have enjoyed their same level of success. It would seem that it would require a pretty fancy crowbar to pry fliers in that market away from the grip of the legacy carriers. Low fares alone might not have been enough to get the job done. Arguably, it was going to require a superior if not at least comparable product to appeal to the NYC market. Back when B6 was starting up at JFK we were still all about orange airplanes and brown upholstered seats. Not that I don't have faith in our product. However, the essence of sales is really knowing your product and marketing it to the appropriate buyer. Nothing against the good people of Islip(they have indeed served us well) but I have a feeling that the powers that be correctly assumed that folks in the burbs of Long Island might be more Southwest's cup of tea than the average Manhattanite. I would not doubt that it's tough for the higher ups to watch F9 thrive in Denver and FL in Atlanta. JFK, ATL, and DIA may indeed always be the ones that got away. Perhaps there is something to be said for knowing when to pick your battles.
 
RiverVisualNYC
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:27 am

Historically, the closer you get to NYC, the more expensive it is to operate anything, especially an airline. Serving JFK (or LGA or EWR) would not really be in keeping with WN's secondary/tertiary low-cost airport philosophy. JetBlue has managed to set up at JFK and succeed largely because of the huge amount of capital it committed to JFK up front, and the legislative assistance it got from Senator Schumer among others in exchange for agreeing to offer low-fare service to previously under-served and economically depressed communities in upstate New York.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:37 am

>>>That was a political decison which actualy worked and lowered the fares, which began the Media love affair with B6 in NYC as the Politicians were taunting them to the NY Post etc every chance they got which gave a certain amount of credibility to the airline in the eyes of the Media and therefore the public.


STT757,

Loved your analysis...but I think you meant "touting"  Big grin

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:39 am

Honestly, I wonder if we had entered metro NYC prior to B6 if we would have enjoyed their same level of success. It would seem that it would require a pretty fancy crowbar to pry fliers in that market away from the grip of the legacy carriers. Low fares alone might not have been enough to get the job done. Arguably, it was going to require a superior if not at least comparable product to appeal to the NYC market.

ConcordeBoy is correct; Southwest did drop the ball on NYC, which I have been arguing for some time. Yes, Southwest would have enjoyed JetBlue's level of success had they entered JFK. People Express didn't have IFE either, and they were a huge success in the NYC market before they mismanaged and leveraged themselves to death. Southwest's low fares and outstanding customer service *are* a in many ways superior product to much of what the Cartel was offering in the late '90s, and today. Fears of massive delays proved unfounded, as JetBlue figured creative ways to get planes in and out of the region's airspace, and of course JFK itself isn't congested on the ground for much of the day.

Manhattan is a quarter of the NYC population; even if they for whatever reason didn't flock to Southwest, others would. Lots of folks in Jackson Heights, Jamaica Bay, Flatbush, and Whitestone would have flocked to Southwest. Nassau County alone is what, a million and a half people mostly closer to JFK than Islip?

NYC also isn't Boston, where MHT and PVD are medium-size commercial airports conveniently located and available for big swaths of the Boston metro area. ISP as noted by others is great for much of Long Island but not NYC. Teterboro, HPN, Trenton, and Grumman are flat-out unavailable to mainline commercial traffic for various reasons. For a new LCC entrant, it's one of the Big Three airports or nothing. Southwest gambled on Nothing, and that's what they have in the City.

No question, Southwest has lost a big advantage in the Northeast by missing the boat in NYC. As STT757 notes, they didn't make the same mistake in Philadelphia. WN learns from its mistakes.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:48 am

Teterboro, HPN, Trenton, and Grumman are flat-out unavailable to mainline commercial traffic for various reasons.

At HPN, I mean *additional* mainline commercial traffic. The rich NIMBY neighbors as others have noted go ape anytime someone suggests more air service. Guess they really enjoy crawling along 95 through the Bronx marshlands to wait in huge lines for tolls at the Bronx-Whitestone bridge.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
dragon-wings
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:36 am

What would happen to ISP flights if Southwest ever decided to serve JFK?
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EMBQA
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:52 am

You'll see Hell freeze over before you will ever see Southwest in EWR, JFK or LGA. Here is your basic-standard JFK day......and this is in GOOD WEATHER. 45min - to a 1.5 hour taxi delay..!! There goes your 20 minute turns...!!!
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jfklganyc
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:54 am

In order to understand why JetBlue is so successful at JFK, you have to understand the mentality of New Yorkers. JetBlue is a LCC, but it's hip, chique, and hot. Song has done a good job with this as well.
Southwest has never marketed itself as anything like this. While this may work in Houston, its overall product doesn't appeal to a New Yorker (specifically a Manhattanite) It's the same reason why there isn't a WalMart anywhere near the five boroughs of New York City, but many Targets. Target can appeal to New Yorkers, WalMart can't.
It's a matter of product differentiation: JetBlue has the right product for the city, WN doesn't.
As for JFK, it has long been thought of as "too far" and "inconvenient," another ridiculous notion that NYers have. Luckily for B6, when they started ops at JFK, LGA was experiencing the worst delays in the history of aviation thanks to the Air-21 Bill, which lifted slot restrictions for RJs at LGA.
It was at that point that an extra 20 minutes on the Van Wyck looked a lot better than a 2-hour delay on the runway at LGA.
B6 used to market this well by saying they operated from New York's most on-time airport. I was even on a few flights where the Captain would say, "Looks like you chose the right airline and right airport. We'll be departing on-time but LGA is experiencing 2 hour delays."
 
LHR001
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:31 am

Southwest and its marketing has a lot to be desired... I am not a fan of Jet Blue by any means .. However Jet Blue can market in a very hip and trendy manner. The same is afforded by Song. New Yorkers are a very good crowd they are a mix of everything and coming from a city that has it all like New York you expect the same in the air...

Call Southwest Airlines, you will get recorded music to some 1970's Hillbilly tune.... When the people respond they are one of two things rude or slap stick like the inflight at Southwest. To see a New York City airport serve Southwest Airlines would be to the liking of the Beverly Hillbillies when they arrived in Beverly Hills... Southwest is an airline that doesnt market for business... It seems to coddle the image of families and leisure travelers...

New Yorkers, take flying seriously... You wont find New Yorkers laughing at the not so funny Southwest Flight Attendant and their campy announcements and in-flight songs....

This round.... (New York)..... belongs to Jet Blue and Song for effectively marketing a very New York crowd!


LHR001
 
AnsettAW
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:56 am

LHR001 -- for someone who boasts years of serving as a top-notch employee of a mysterious top-notch airline, you seem to have such an arrogant and elitist attitude, one that would not translate well into quality customer service. I think that's what is most revealing about your posts -- the disdain you have for those individuals who don't fall into your exclusive multi-lingual (yeah sure) Glamorama world of make-believe.
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DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:02 am

Preach it, AnsettAW. At least LHR001 didn't cut-and-paste his ten-column-inch Song press release that he's dropped into other threads.

Jfklganyc--People Express wasn't "hip, chique (sp?) and hot." So why were they so massively successful in the New York market until they destroyed themselves? Answer: People *everywhere* love low fares and getting airborne to places they want to go. That's the bottom line, "hip town" or not.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
SWAFA30
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:19 am

People Express didn't have IFE either, and they were a huge success in the NYC market before they mismanaged and leveraged themselves to death

Was People Express already operating as carrier a and entered the New York market? Or, did they launch their operation from New York, a la jetBlue? The fact that jetBlue was an unknown entity may have worked to their advantage. I have learned to accept that deserved or not, Southwest sometimes has a reputation as a low-class operation. Hence, the constant comparisons to a certain global discount retail chain. No perception of a company is one thing. Overcoming a negative perception can be quite another. We may indeed provide a better level of customer service. But, if people are unwilling to give you a shot, what difference does it make.

 
LHR001
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:28 am

So.... you are saying WN would do well! Ha Ha! You wouldnt dare see the Hamptons crowd touch one of the putrid and horrid 737's with a 10 foot pole!

AnsettAW...

Dont be upset...... I like me new title you have given me."Arrogant and Elitest"...actually that is a campy title... I rather enjoyed that... I will have to bring that up in May when our crowd heads out to our parents summer homes in the Hamptons!

You know we are the ones out in the Hamptons from May to September playing Tennis, Tanning, throwing parties for both new and old money...and Shopping at Gucci, Max Mara, and Louis Vuitton at the Americana at Manhasset... with our parents money!  Smile
.. I probably lost you on that one... You wouldn't know most of it if you were not prevy to the Hamptons of New York social... "in-scene"!

Have you ever heard of the phrase... "Diplomatic", "Wealthy"... Some of us do have the experience and the money to say and do what we want... You shouldnt be envious that one has more "Full Service" airline experience than yourself! Dont knock a person because they may have more "international", "luxury", or "class".... Sorry.. You cant buy class.. You are born with it... Some of us were born with a very shinny and glistening platinum spoon in our mouth... Myself one of them! Envy is very nasty!...By the way a person such as myself is refered to as a "Dual Citizen", "Snob", "Rich B****", and now your title "Arrogant Elitest" how grand!...

Southwest Airlines is no People Express... have you forgotten the reach and nonstops that People Express offered...? Dont forget that People Express fed international flights from Newark as well! That is why Continental Airlines found People Express so attractive as a purchase!

LHR001

[Edited 2004-01-06 03:44:50]
 
goingboeing
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:32 am

If JetBlue cut off Southwest at JFK, When can I book my next JetBlue flight to Kansas City? St. Louis? Chicago maybe? Nashville? Cleveland? Houston? The list goes on....
 
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STT757
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:39 am

The Jetblue story closely follows the PeoplExpress story, they use a generally "less crowded" (at the time) airport and the Port Authority goes out of their way to provide them with facilities (North Terminal at EWR, T-6 at JFK).

PeoplExpress was a startup from EWR, and was HUGELY popular. PeoplExpress had the same effect on EWR as B6 is currently having on JFK, PE within a couple years helped EWR almost single handidly become NYC's Busiest airport. B6 has had a similar effect at JFK where in '03 JFK was the busiest NYC airport for the first time in 7 years, all because of B6.

PeoplExpress was as barebones an "safe" airline operation could get, however they did "splurge" building a new Terminal (C) and buying Frontier.

B6 is as "elaborate" (for lack of a better term) as a LCC can get, kind of the opposite of PE. However B6 is ordering different aircraft (ERJ-190) and building a new Terminal at JFK, lets see where they are 7 years from now.

The Walmart in NYC comparison is not accurate as KMart has had Manhattan stores for years, one of their most successful stores is in the LIRR section of Penn Station.

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:43 am

I think WN has looked at SWF at length. It is however, reasonbly close to ALB. If WN were to rethink their NYC strategy (or lack thereof) SWF makes the most sense. They may have "missed the boat" at JFK (though in hindsight avoiding all 3 NYC airports was a no-brainer), so why not surround NYC as much as possible? They musn't wait too long IMO, SWF will be tapped by someone else sooner or later as NYC options run out.
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STT757
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:46 am

Goingboeing brings up another point to which I want to use to make a point..

He wrote..

"If JetBlue cut off Southwest at JFK, When can I book my next JetBlue flight to Kansas City? St. Louis? Chicago maybe? Nashville? Cleveland? Houston? "

Exactly, WN not only chose the wrong airport to serve NYC but they are also flying the wrong routes.

Nashville, St.Louis etc.. are not popular destinations for NYC travelers.

Florida, Puerto Rico, Las Vegas, California are the most popular destinations for NY'ers. And B6 offers a much more realistic route map that people actually want to fly from NY than WN, like Denver, Seattle etc..

Nashville etc. is at the bottom.

WN has to use a different formula for NY, one size does not fit all especially in NY.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
PBIflyguy
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:56 am

DCA-ROC guy hit it on the head......If I ever start up a business , I am going to hire the marketing team from B6. B6 made it " cool " to fly an LCC. WN is "folksy" and middle America.

Even if the fares were decent, NYC folks would resist flying any airline that won't offer seat assignments. High power exec types can't or won't get to an airport 3 hours early just to get a decent seat. I know it is a small point, but I believe it is valid. We are talking about people who wait hours to eat at swank bistros and cafes, get into clubs, etc........the last thing they want to do is trek to JFK and board a packed flight cattle car style. Maybe WN was smarter than we think...... did they know their "style" wouldn't fly in NYC?

The true test would be if B6 started service from ISP. Would their loyal fans follow them? Seems to me that B6 could fill some of their new 190's with service to PBI, FLL, MCO, TPA.....maybe even JAX out of ISP
 
SWAFA30
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:08 pm

Exactly, WN not only chose the wrong airport to serve NYC but they are also flying the wrong routes.

If their route structure could not have supported a metro NYC airport then it would seem that they did indeed make the right decision not to enter the market. The success at ISP shows that while JFK might not have supported WN routes the suburbs will.

Florida, Puerto Rico, Las Vegas, California are the most popular destinations for NY'ers. And B6 offers a much more realistic route map that people actually want to fly from NY than WN, like Denver, Seattle etc..

Southwest has a substantial presence in Florida with large operations at TPA, and MCO. Additionally, they maintain a respectable presence in JAX, FLL, and PBI. Puerto Rico is indeed not an option but WN has an enormous presence in LAS as well as ops in SEA.





 
FrequentFlier
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:47 pm

Why do New Yorkers say that JFK is out of the way? Because it is! Except for a few locations, such as the south shore of Long Island and Brooklyn, JFK is way far from everything. LGA is just a few minutes from midtown (without traffic of course) and very close to Westchester county and Connecticut. Domestic travellers go to JFK because of JetBlue for the most part.

Would Southwest survive at JFK? Before JetBlue I'm betting that it would have. Some elitist New Yorkers might have a problem with Southwest's image but how many people really care about the image of the airline if they're saving money. Today JetBlue has a firm hold on the NYC lcc market so Southwest would face some really tough competition there. And contrary to what some people say, JFK ALWAYS has smaller delays than LGA and EWR.

 
elwood64151
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:00 pm

One thing to remember about Islip is that there are 2 million people in Nassau County and nearly a million more further out on the island.

JFK presents a lot of problems vis-a-vis slot restrictions and traffic congestion. I've often thought about WN in New York, but EWR, JFK, and LGA simply don't match their needs. Maybe EWR could one day become part of their network, but not LGA or JFK.

They might one day serve HPN, but I doubt they'll ever serve the two airports in Queens...
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
AnsettAW
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:02 pm

Dont be upset...... I like me new title you have given me."Arrogant and Elitest"...actually that is a campy title... I rather enjoyed that... I will have to bring that up in May when our crowd heads out to our parents summer homes in the Hamptons!

LHR001: Don’t worry. I’m not upset. And I didn’t give you any title. I said you seem to have an arrogant and elitist attitude. That’s just my perception. After all, you're probably a bored and vaguely imaginative teenager who has not yet had the opportunity to even visit the Hamptons. Hey, as long as you’re keeping out of real trouble, kid, that’s cool! (Maybe next you can imagine a marketing campaign to help resurrect your image here on a.net. You might not want to use the word "diplomatic", though, because it's usually reserved for individuals with tact, not those who gloat about being born with a "shinny" [sic] spoon in their mouth.)  Smile

Sorry.. You cant buy class.. You are born with it...

Priceless. Thanks for that observation.  Smile


AnsettAW
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nycfuturepilot
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:06 pm

Prosa- Nobody in the new york metro area would go all the way to PHL for WN. Its at least an hour and a half drive.
Father, Son, HOYA spirit
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:07 pm

Exactly, WN not only chose the wrong airport to serve NYC but they are also flying the wrong routes. Nashville, St.Louis etc.. are not popular destinations for NYC travelers. Florida, Puerto Rico, Las Vegas, California are the most popular destinations for NY'ers. And B6 offers a much more realistic route map that people actually want to fly from NY than WN, like Denver, Seattle etc..

WN's current timetable includes nonstops from ISP to BWI (9), MDW (3), FLL (2), BNA (3), MCO (3), TPA (2) and PBI (2). Chicago, the DC area, and the 3 Florida airports, are all big routes from any large Northeast population center. However odd a choice BNA seems on this list, it must make money or WN wouldn't fly three dailies.

The impression I get is that for WN, ISP is less "the wrong airport to serve NYC" than "the right airport to serve central and eastern Long Island," which has, what 2.5 million people within about an hour's drive? It's a classic medium-size WN focus market. The terminal WN is building at ISP, with four gates, could probably put through 50 dailies if WN wanted.

But ISP is a consolation prize nonetheless....WN blew the opportunity to build another PHX or BWI at NYC.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
elwood64151
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:18 pm

Sorry.. You cant buy class.. You are born with it... Some of us were born with a very shinny and glistening platinum spoon in our mouth... Myself one of them! Envy is very nasty!...

In this limited context, you are not "born" with class (in this case an adjective referring to social behavior and style)... You learn it. Something, by the tone of this post, you have obviously never done.

You can be born into A "class" (in this context, a socio-economic strata defined by both income and breeding)... You may well have been born or earned your way into that.

Classy people do *not* throw the weight of their class around. While you may possess some of the latter, you are not the former.

And I'll admit I do not have class, either. I scratch in public and beltch the national anthem like half of the rest of this country (actually, I don't, but you get the point). No matter how much money I will or will not have at the various stagest of my life, I'd rather be slogging it out with people who's respect doesn't come at the behest of a dollar sign or a certain family tree than ever be part of your Hampton's Summer Manor crowd.

Florida, Puerto Rico, Las Vegas, California are the most popular destinations for NY'ers. And B6 offers a much more realistic route map that people actually want to fly from NY than WN, like Denver, Seattle etc..

If that's the case, why do AA and YX have n/s flights to MCI and STL from LGA? Islip is not NYC. I think WN saw an opportunity to catch 3 million passengers forgotten about because of JFK, EWR, and LGA...

Besides, you can get to LAS, FLL, LAX, SAN, OAK, etc on WN... You may have to make a stop, but you may have to do that on the majors, also...

[Edited 2004-01-06 05:19:55]

[Edited 2004-01-06 05:39:30]
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
SWAFA30
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:20 pm

However odd a choice BNA seems on this list, it must make money or WN wouldn't fly three dailies.

BNA offers a wide variety of connecting sevvice out of ISP with non-stops to HOU, AUS, MSY, and SAT, not to mention much of the west coast such as LAS, SAN, LAX, SEA etc. When you look at it from that standpoint, it makes a bit more sense.
 
prosa
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:22 pm

Southwest has never marketed itself as anything like this. While this may work in Houston, its overall product doesn't appeal to a New Yorker (specifically a Manhattanite) It's the same reason why there isn't a WalMart anywhere near the five boroughs of New York City, but many Targets. Target can appeal to New Yorkers, WalMart can't.

I wouldn't draw too much of an analogy from the Wal-Mart situation to the airline situation. Wal-Mart is deathly afraid of unions, and NYC is of course a very strong union town. Style has very little if anything to do with it.

One thing to remember about Islip is that there are 2 million people in Nassau County and nearly a million more further out on the island.

Nassau and Suffolk are about 2.7 million combined, pretty evenly divided between the counties with a slight edge to Suffolk. Roughly speaking, I'd say that 1.8 to 2 million people are closer to ISP than JFK.

Prosa- Nobody in the new york metro area would go all the way to PHL for WN. Its at least an hour and a half drive.

It's a reasonable distance from parts of Middlesex, Ocean and especially Mercer counties.

"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
LHR001
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:31 pm

Top Destinations for New Yorkers-


Boston
Ft. Lauderdale
Las Vegas
Los Angeles
Miami
Orlando
Palm Beach
San Francisco
San Juan
Washington D.C.

Jet Blue and Song connect New York to
(from the above Top Destination list)

Ft. Lauderdale
Las Vegas
Long Beach/Los Angeles
Miami
Orlando
Palm Beach
Oakland/San Francisco
San Juan


Even though I find myself at great odds with Jet Blue and its business model... I can say that Jet Blue deserves a very rewarded pat on the back for opening up the eyes of people and showing them that even when flying low cost you can have a civilized and outstanding experience. Song, is my preffered airline out of the new low cost boom! Song and Jet Blue may be competing .. However, they are miles above Southwest Airlines in class, design, service, and image!

Southwest Airlines and the country-esque image and marketing techniques are nothing in the skeam of things in New York City. Think about it... Most airlines are offering the same price and now it is comeing down to one of two things.. Do you want a ticket with nothing included, or do you want a ticket with complimentary extras.. Even the idea that you can purchase a meal at a surcharge is appealing to many people! Song and Jet Blue both offer IFE and quality In-Flight presentations.

Simply put.... Southwest Airlines does not belong on the New York City scene... Southwest Airlines is all about the hicks in the sticks... By the way Southwest Airlines in Las Vegas is marketing that they fly to Boston... ala Providence and Manchester... That is a very dirty RyanAir like lie!


LHR001
 
AnsettAW
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:38 pm

Southwest Airlines does not belong on the New York City scene.

Yeah, because everyone knows that the millions who live in NYC are all just part of one big flashy in-crowd who get off on amenities. Geesh.
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STT757
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:47 pm

"Prosa- Nobody in the new york metro area would go all the way to PHL for WN. Its at least an hour and a half drive.

It's a reasonable distance from parts of Middlesex, Ocean and especially Mercer counties. "

I live in Western Monmouth County almost exactly halfway between NYC and Philly, EWR is a 40 Minute drive, PHL is a 70 Minute drive.

I've driven to JFK from my house in 70 minutes, and there were days I've driven to/from JFK and my house and it took 3 hours.

Northern New Jersey's 8 million residents make up a big portion of the NYC Metro Area, and except for the Counties surrounding Manhattan (Hudson and Bergen Counties) most are within a 90 minute or less drive from PHL.

Probably from Princeton South is the border of folks who use EWR or PHL, North of Princeton people use EWR South and West of Princeton people use PHL.

Depending on what kind of fares and routes WN offers at PHL I might drive there to fly them, depends on what kind of deal I get. My experience with them (I've never flown WN) will determine whether or not I will fly them more than once, can't be worse than PeoplExpress (can it?..).

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
elwood64151
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:54 pm

Southwest Airlines and the country-esque image and marketing techniques are nothing in the skeam of things in New York City.

First of all, it's spelled "scheme". Second, New York City is composed of five buroughs named The Bronx, Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, and Staten Island (actually, Bronx, New York, Queens, Kings, and Staten Island counties). It is not limited to the area between the interseciton of 59th and Central Park West and the Hudson River and 74th Street, and oh yeah Times Square and Gramercy Park (sp?).

Third, the image of WN as "country-esque" is nothing bad anywhere in this nation. My father always told me that to understand a culture, you must first understand its art, and its myths. Our art is cinema (after all, we invented it and produce more than anyone else--and to a somewhat limited extent it is also television). Our myth is the Frontier. Whether it's the Old West, or the mountains of Pennsylvania/New York/Tennessee before 1800, or the "Final Frontier" of outer space, we look beyond what is tamed to find adventure. A "country-esque" image, as you state it, is not a bad thing. Even New Yorkers love a good Western or Sci-Fi flick.

Your profile says you worked for a Persian Gulf-based airline, and that you have no use for the likes of B6, FL, etc. I notice you never mentioned WN... Anyway, I can only conclude that you either came from the Persian Gulf yourself, or that your experiences in this world have been limited to those very unique areas: New York (and apparently Las Vegas, since you claim to live there), and the Persian Gulf. These areas in no way represent the majority of the United States or the world, and if one limits oneself to very particular experiences, even that of New York City.

Having walked in both the world of the priveleged and of the huddled-masses, I can say that no one view (not even yours) represents everyone in any social, economic, behavioral, or other class.

Simply put.... Southwest Airlines does not belong on the New York City scene... Southwest Airlines is all about the hicks in the sticks...

There's a lot of hicks I'd rather be associated with than many of the high-society people who think they are better than anyone else.

When you get right down to it, we're all just amino acids, carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen, with a few other elements mixed in. Saying that one particular group of people is better is not only elitist, is smacks of everything this country was founded to oppose. The Declaration of Independence, that document which makes the United States an independent nation from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, states that "We hold these truths to be self evident [accent mine], that all men are created equal."
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:55 pm

Also, when WN and other locos enters a market they try to encourage new people to fly rather than just stealing customers away. WN would have done well at JFK if they started a few years back. They could have tapped the NYC-Southern Florida routes and more. Now it is a different story. JFK would be virtually impossible for them to tap now. And they can't do EWR or LGA either. So right now they are effectively closed out of NYC. That is ok though, there are still tons of other routes for them to fly other than NYC.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:57 pm

I hate to agree with some of the snobish statements being made because I am pretty down to earth . . . However, I must agree. Take a trip around Manhattan, hats and scarves come out the minute there is a chill in the air in mid october, shorts are on as the buds are blooming in April and paying $2.00 for a bottle of water, a pretzel, or a gallon of gasoline is cheap.
New York is not a snobish environment, but New Yorkers feel that they are first and best and everything they do fits into that mentality.
The only chance WN would have at marketing themselves to New Yorkers was to present themselves as a "hoaky" experience that is fun to try. Kind of like the way upstate New Yorkers sell Manhattanites homemade maple syrup when they come apple picking in the country once a year.
Other than that, WN is totally out of touch with New Yorkers and the general mentality.

As for the question on Peoples Express doing so well in New York. I start off by saying that it was a much different time. We were just out of deregulation and a cheap fare sounded good. Newark was a newly renovated airport waiting for a tenant. This is just an assumption, but it probably wouldn't work today.

As for JFK being out of the way, please consider the persepective from which you are speaking. Brooklyn is New York's most populous borough. Queens is its largest. All of Nassau county is also urbanized. All are convenient to JFK. According to Neeleman, the B6 business plan didn't include one passenger coming from Manhattan--but they're coming now!
 
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STT757
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:07 pm

" Newark was a newly renovated airport waiting for a tenant"

PeoplExpress flew out of the Old North Terminal, which the larger carriers (AA, UAL, EA, PA, TWA, CO, NWA etc.) left in 1972 to move to the current Central Terminal area's A and B Terminals.

PeoplExpress started to renovate Terminal C but never moved into there, CO finished the project two years after aquiring PE.

So PE never enjoyed "newly renovated" anything, you had to walk outside and up the "stairs" to board every PE flight. Which was fun when it was not raining or cold.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
elwood64151
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:09 pm

Jfklganyc:

Once again, you are speaking of a very particular market.

Most of the people in NYC are looking to save money just like the majority of other people in this country.

Fly Southwest a little cheaper than American? Save $75? Sure! Why not?

After all, AirTran, Frontier, Spirit, America West, and Jet Blue are all doing just fine at the various NYC airports, thank you. Southwest wouldn't be too far of a stretch from any of those.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
PVD757
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:30 pm

LHR001 - I don't mean to burst your bubble, but most people in the Hamptons don't fly commercially anyways. Don't try to scam us thinking that you're elitist because you would have known that YOUR friends don't fly that way. Last time I checked, there were more blue collar flyers in NYC than the business traveller on their hourly jaunts to the west coast. Don't be so insulting, these people would kill to be able to afford to leave NYC once in a while seeing as how they struggle to pay for living there. As fars as the redneck attitude that WN supposedly has, they do pretty well out of New England right now. Not bad for a bunch of stuffy shirts N of you.
 
LHR001
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:41 pm

PVD757....

Remember that many people that own homes!.... True many of them jet down to Palm Beach and Floridas Gulf Coast in the off-season!

If you think people in New York City would fly Southwest Airlines... You are in a fantasy World.... The same Southwest Airlines that services Lubbock, Texas is not in any shape to compete with the full-service LCC's...JetBlue and Song that call JFK home!

The only reason WN is even attempting PHL is because they have seen the success of Jet Blue and Song... Don't expect the Hillbilly Express to spread its wings anywhere close to New York City soon!
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:04 pm

I can lay this out in one sentence:

It sometimes easily takes more time to get from ISP to Manhattan than it does form most Southwest flights to get to ISP.

There's your reason why Southwest blew it and ISP sucks.

-Phil
Phil Derner Jr.
 
elwood64151
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:04 pm

Lhr001:

Obviously, you've never been to Lubbock. Other airlines fly there, including AA and DL. I'm sure there are others. And many of your friends in the Hamptons probably own ranches in that region.

Your view of New York City is so skewed...

By the way, my mother is a native New Yorker, and my father lived there on and off for almost ten years. They usually fly either "Hillbilly Express" or USAirways...

And WN isn't attempting PHL because of JetBlue and Song. For many years, the people of Southeastern Pennsylvania (another place I've lived) have been travelling to BWI to get lower-fare flights on WN! Adding PHL meant increasing service to an existing market segment WN was serving.

As for WN not serving NYC, it's NYC that isn't useful to WN, not vice-versa... Slot restrictions and systemic delays are not part of WN's plan... That's why they're not in NYC...

Oh, yeah... COSTCO, which is very similar to Wal-Mart in many respects (the difference being you have to pay membership fees), has a large and growing presence in NYC, so whoever is making the "Wal-Mart" argument, chill out!

Phil:

For you, maybe... For someone living in Nassau or Suffolk counties, maybe not! Those two counties combined have about 2.7 million people (as someone mentioned above, correcting a previous post of mine). WN serves far smaller markets... WN may advertise ISP as their gateway to NYC, but the reality is that it's for Long Islanders, not New Yorkers!

[Edited 2004-01-06 07:06:39]
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
PVD757
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:06 pm

There will be plenty of room for them after Song fails. Anybody who thinks that Ted or Song will succeed needs to pass some of that to me. The major airlines do not have the mentality to do what's necessary to succeed. Have you ever seen a pilot throw bags to get a plane out on time? The first time I saw that in PVD I almost fell over. I used to work for one of the other majors and they will never get out and help, even if they were allowed to. You act as if they truck in the employees like migrant farmers in Southern California.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:04 pm

"I believe they decided against the three NYC airports due to what they perceived as too much congestion to allow their type of quick-turnaround operation."

Surely LAX is very busy?
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
goingboeing
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:03 pm

Florida, Puerto Rico, Las Vegas, California are the most popular destinations for NY'ers. And B6 offers a much more realistic route map that people actually want to fly from NY than WN, like Denver, Seattle etc..

With their ONE flight per day to each location? Geez - I hear about how New York is the biggest baddest place in the USA, but it can only support ONE daily flight to Denver or Seattle...the places that people in NYC "want" to fly to.? Seems they could support more flights than that.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Southwest Drop The Ball On NYC By Avoiding JFK?

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:14 pm

It sounds like this conversation has taken on some perosnal undertones between a few of you. Fact is someone stated it best when they said ISP is further from Manhattan than some of the flights they serve from there.
I work at ISP as a CFI and I can tell you that it is a small, old terminal that was rennovated in the 90s to accomodate USAir, which has since left. As for WN's new expansion, its not much of an expansion in terms of gate space. They currently have 3 gates in a temporay facility. They will expand to 4 gates in a larger, multi-level facility that most modern airports (even smaller ones) already have.
The fact is, if WN intended to serve Long Islanders, they are doing fine. However, if they intended to serve the greater New York area from ISP, they are working out of an out-moded facility, far from the city, without direct rail or highway access . . .This makes this attempt a complete failure.