MSYtristar
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Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:17 pm

Hot rumor from the flightline: Frontier looking at A330's (not sure of variant) to open up HNL flying from DEN and/or LAX....maybe Caribbean. Once again, just a hot rumor in pilotland, nothing official. My personal thought on the subject:

While it would be great to see the fantastic F9 colors on a wide body...and while I think DEN-HNL would be very successful year-round (high loads, bad yields, but it would still be a popular service)....spending the $$$ to integrate such a huge aircraft into the fleet would be a little too much for us to handle at the current time. However, as history has shown, it is not totally out of the question....

Many of the smaller, regional carriers which have purchased wide bodies in the past did not have much success with them overall. PeoplExpress didn't last much longer after it got the 747, PSA didn't find success in using the L1011's (although honestly the intra-California market was not well suited for the plane), and Northeastern got a little too much it could handle when it leased some A300's back in the early 80's.

I think F9 would be wise in just sticking to an all narrow body fleet until they build up enough connecting services out of DEN/LAX to consistently fill those big boys.


Steve/MSY
 
PBIflyguy
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:28 pm

I think F9 is going to have their hands full with their new focus at LAX.

Doesn't UA have service to HNL from DEN? Does F9 really want to take UA on in that market?

But, as you say, a brand new A330 with a porpoise on its tail would be a great sight!

 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:43 pm

Ahhh, this year's rumor.

Twelve months ago, the rumor was that Frontier was going to skip the A320 and go straight to the A321.

All we know for sure is that they may - stress may - order the A320. There is a privision in the Airbus contract for it.

But hey, I agree - it would look great on any big 'bus.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:00 pm

They should pick up some of the ex- CX or IB A340-600's ....
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
funflyer
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:08 pm

Please dont make me VOMIT.

You really think that F9 colors would look good on any plane not to mention the A330.


PLEASE
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NWAFA
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:16 pm

If F9 does HNL that WILL be the end of them! They can not handle wide body flying and that DEN-HNL market is not in huge demand.
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flyf15
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:19 pm

There have been rumors of A330s/340s at Frontier since at least 1999. The thought/understanding by many employees is that if/when United were to be hurting very badly (such as it is now), Frontier could get these Airbus widebodies and start up flights to United's highest yielding destinations -- Tokyo, London, Frankfurt, etc.

It does seem like a good idea...but do I think it'll ever happen? Nope.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:26 pm

NWAFA:

I thought you said that NWA was going to polish off Frontier?

Flyf15:

In 1999, Frontier had not ordered their first Airbus. Everyone - including F9 management - believed they would be going with Boeing.

So why would they have even thought about the A330/A340?

This is a rumor, a silly rumor. Nothing more.

FunFlyer:

You should seek medical help for that vomiting condition of yours.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
vafi88
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:31 pm

Funflyer : Frontier's livery is original, classy, and fun all at the same time.

As for the A330, I think they will order the A321, but we have to wait a few more years for them to pick up some A330s...
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
mikephotos
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:35 pm

Frontier's livery looks great on the 744 so I'm sure it'll look good on the A330:

http://www.mikephotos.net/dea/viewphoto.asp?id=00113

Enjoy!

Mike
 
mcg
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:37 pm

Could F9 serve HNL from LAX with ETOPS A319s? In this way they could service Hawaii and substantially increase the value of their frequent flyer program without introducing an additional aircraft type.
 
flyf15
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:50 pm

Mariner, I must have the date incorrect then, it was right around when they first ordered the Airbus aircraft that I first heard it. And yes, it is definately just a rumor that has been floating around for quite some time at that airline with some of the employees.
 
elwood64151
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:05 pm

While F9 may someday initiate service to HNL, right now would not be the right time. They are focusing on building their LAX focus city and adding routes out of DEN. The venture into ANC could be a prelude to additional international service, but I think it is far more likely to be service to North American and Carribean routes.

HNL can wait until F9 can fill the connecting traffic. I think they'll be able to support one or two DEN-HNL flights with O&D and connections when they've gotten a bit bigger and have a better balance sheet (not that it's particularly bad now). Just by their lower fares, they should be able to steal at least a small amount of UA's market.

But this year? I highly doubt it.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:12 pm

As Cher said so eloquently on Will and Grace, "Are you kidding me with this?"
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:46 pm

Although it does sound far fetched, there could be some truth. I don't think DEN-HNL would work because as previous posters pointed out, its low yields and a lot of competition w/ United. BUT, what about this scenario: DEN-LGW, or DEN-CDG? UAL is not doing nonstops Paris (London anyone? I'm not sure) Imagine if they started nonstops to these cities, w/ good fares, advertised it up and down the west coast for the connecting pax, there might be a market here. FLYF15 also mentioned Tokyo....that is a possibility to. There is little competition in the way of US carriers on such a route. And again if they advertise to the spoke cities this service, that helps all the more.

Look how Virgin came in and made itself competitve against BA...same possible success story here.
 
sprxflySWA
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:52 pm

As I have learned from many pilotland rumors, don't bet on it. Ever.
 
F9Fan
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:14 pm

I've heard that F9 is considering expanding in the Caribbean. I don't think they would use A330s though. If they added the A330 series, they would need additional training and spare parts storage. Both of these costs can add up, and F9 CEO Jeff Potter is very cost conscious. More likely would be adding A320 or A321 since they can use the spare parts from the A318 and A319, and the pilots wouldn't have to get a new type rating

If they do expand in the Caribbean, I suspect they would go for GCM, KIN, MBJ, NAS, FPO, SJU, STT, and STX. They could do other cities in the Caribbean if they did a focus city in TPA, MCO or FLL. It should be worth noting that F9 did receive "flag carrier" status from the USDOT, which gives F9 the right to fly over two hours (I think) outside US airspace, the right to fly between two international destinations, and the right to fly to Alaska and Hawaii. They just announced service to ANC, so getting flag carrier status was needed for that.

I've also heard they want to expand into BOS, DTW, or even PIT. I suspect they may also go for YYZ, YDL, YOW, YYC, YEG, or YVR before they even think about HNL or LGW.

F9Fan
 
PVD757
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:20 pm

Presently - not a chance of happening.
A few years from now - Maybe, only if they can convince UA that they are friends not enemies.
 
F9Fan
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:45 pm

By the way, UA and Norwegian Cruise Line signed an agreement where NCL will use UA on their cruise-air packages to Hawaii. They said they would use DEN as one of their gathering cities, and then go nonstop from DEN to HNL.

F9Fan
 
ual777contrail
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:58 pm

DELTAFLYER,
First off, pilots have nothing better to do on a 40 minute turn but think up some lame ass rumors like this.

Second, F9 could take west coast passengers and fly them to CDG or LGW?Why in the world would they do that when they could fly UA,VS,BA and such from LAX and SFO and go NONSTOP? HMMMM Sounds crazy but I would bet that wouldn't work for F9.

Third, go to JAPANS Narita on F9? They wouldn't stand a chance or make a ripple in that market like AA to JAPAN(nrt). You cant compete with NWA or UAL in that market.

And to see a widebody with that horrible paint scheme would be gross, it already looks like crap on a narrowbody.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:16 pm

How does it look like crap?

I thinks its fun and unique. And not at all ugly. I love the animal tails!

If you ask me the current livery is an improvement over the old one...with the stylized titles.
 
LHR001
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RE: Frontier A330's

Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:46 pm

Fun and Unique doesn’t sell in London, Paris, or Tokyo.... Name does! You cant rely on the good people of Denver to be able to fill the plane everyday! Frontier wouldn’t stand a chance if they started Denver to London... Is everyone forgetting that British Airways is operating the route from DEN-LHR? In addition Los Angeles to London is one of the most heavily traveled international routes in the World with AA, BA, NZ, UA, and VS!

Does anyone remember what happened to America West when they got the 747's from KLM and started from Phoenix/Las Vegas to Honolulu and Nagoya??? It could happen again with the same results!


LHR001
 
ual777contrail
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:31 am

LHR001,
I would love to see UAL get a slot for DEN-LHR, then BA would have some trouble. But we will never know the results will we.


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B747-4U3
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:45 am

Although I don't think Frontier venturing into the long haul market at this stage, I think Frontier would be better of trying to take a relatively short term lease on some 767s than new 330s. They could test the market with a medium capacity aircraft, and if it works they could make more permanent arangements. Perhaps a contract like the Virgin-Air Atlanta deal would be a good place to start.

I think a better strategy for Frontier is to stick with what they are doing now.
 
ken4556
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:48 am

Would not the 757 be a perfect plane to fly to HNL and Caribbean?

It has the range, good passenger numbers, ability to operate from the shorter runways in the islands, and they could probably get a good lease rate on them.

 
Guest

RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:45 am

"Fun and Unique doesn’t sell in London, Paris, or Tokyo.... Name does! "

And bmi is not fun and unique? Price is what will drive people.... Frontier brings lower prices and they'll fill planes... and BA will still make all of their money off the premium traffic (as they do anyway... BA has never been much for caring about "riff raff" in the back cabin)...

I think that lhr001 lives in a dream world.
 
rj777
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:51 am

The day F9 gets any wide body plane will be the day WN goes under.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:53 am

Would not the 757 be a perfect plane to fly to HNL and Caribbean?

That's precisely what I was thinking. If F9 really wanted to get aircraft with longer range, the 757 would be the perfect solution.

There certainly wouldn't be a need for an A332 or anything along those lines. Of course that won't start people from saying they're going to be the launch customer for the 7E7 either.  Big grin
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
DIA
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:02 am

Mariner: That A321 rumor was started by that F9 pilot. . .I know you remember. Smile

Now, to address this new rumor: probably an A330-200 by my guess.
In terms of the livery. . .billboard liveries usually look bad, with the exception of F9's. Besides, who cares about the livery anyway?! Big grin It's the animal on the tail that should be the hot topic! Whale? Tropical bird? Angel Fish? What do you think? Uu-ummhhff (clearing throat), if and when, of course, F9 is ever to make an A330 order. . . . . .anyway. . .

Cheers all,
DIA
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
NWAFA
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:08 am

Mariner

I never said that NWA "would polish them off"..in the section that was asked what do you think will happen to the industry in 2004, I suggested that NWA could look at them.

As far as F9 getting 330/340, Nope, don't "THINK" that will happen. History has proven itself that new smaller carriers (peoples, AmericaWest,PSA) when they get wide bodies they just don't make it. Frontier is on a quick path to fleet standardization. Having One type of aircraft works for them.

Should anything happen to UA, then yes I could totally see them doing it.
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LHR001
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:10 am

United Airlines was rumored at starting Denver to London/LHR in the late 1990's when the 777 came online. United and British coming heading on would be very interesting to say the least. For once it would be nice for United to pull a JFK flight and trade it out with Denver.... Tht would be a dream! The reality however is that JFK has very.. very loyal clientele and it is primarily all local traffic!


In regards to the comment about British Airways not caring about Economy Class? Have you flown British Airways.. There service in Economy Class is on a par with Qantas and Singapore Airlines... You dont see US airlines offer amenity kits, menus, or pre departure beverages on International flights do you?

BMI... The little airline that trys... Boston and Chicago are performing at fesable standards... Nothing as expected.. The airline suffers from the fact that its intra-European hub is at Heathrow and its Trans Atlantic hub is at Manchester... They wanted to serve Boston, Miami, and Los Angeles... That still seems to be a very distant dream!


LHR001
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:29 am

NWAFA:

Oh, I seem to remember you being quite negative about Frontier's future when they announced LAX/MSP and NWA retaliated.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was someone from Alaska who was also quite cross with Frontier, because of Anchorage.

As to this A330 rumor, it is pie in the sky nonsense. Anyone who looks at what Frontier is doing and how they are achieving that, would see the rumor for what it is.

They don't need a longer range aircraft for any of their present/future plans, and they certainly don't need a widebody. They don't even have A320's - yet.

Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me if - in some distant future - Frontier does introduce LAX/HNL, but with the A319.

However, my money would be on a Caribbean island first (also with a 319), if only because the CEO has said so.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:41 am

Yeah, LAX-HNL probably one of the most over-served, low yield routes in existance.....
 
luv2fly
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:43 am

News flash, I flew BA roundtrip DTW LHR DTW last year and there was no menus nor any pre departure drinks offered either way...... A amenity plastic bag would be more like it.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
gigneil
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 8:37 am

Heh. Fun.

Yes, if they wanted, they could serve HNL with their 319s.

N
 
frontiers4ever
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 8:48 am

Wasnt there a rumor back a while on this forum that a certain airline (B6) would begin serving HNL? Still havent seen that materialize. So probably not on the A330 thing from LAX. Its to big of gamble right now. Remember America West and their 747.

-Frontiers4ever
Until you prove, your right, your wrong
 
Guest

RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 9:32 am

"You dont see US airlines offer amenity kits, menus, or pre departure beverages on International flights do you?"

Hmm... menus on United, amenity kits on Continental....


British Airways has stated they are gearing their service toward premium passengers.... evidenced by their move to increasing premium cabin capacity and instituting a fourth "premium economy" class. On some of their aircraft, I believe, there are as many business-class-level seats as there are in economy class.

I'm sorry Lhr001, but you don't seem to know much about the airline industry.
 
bistro1200
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RE: Frontier A330's

Wed Jan 07, 2004 9:44 am

Oh please let this happen. More gates for my ol' pal Ted after F9 folds.

Maybe F9 can pick up some A330s cheap when USAir declares Ch 7.

Frontier reminds me of a star high school athlete, doing well in their own little universe and performing well against other 'schools.' Then this athlete decides he'll go to college and play ball, and gets pounded the first day of practice by bigger, stronger athletes that have way more experience. This is F9 if they decide to fly international widebody operations. I suggest F9 stay at the high school level and play other high-school airlines (JetBlue, Airtran, Southwest, Alaska, ATA, America West).
Measure to the millimeter, mark with a crayon, cut with an axe.
 
DIA
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RE: Frontier A330's

Thu Jan 08, 2004 12:42 am

Bistro1200 said: "Frontier reminds me of a star high school athlete, doing well in their own little universe and performing well against other 'schools.' Then this athlete decides he'll go to college and play ball, and gets pounded the first day of practice by bigger, stronger athletes that have way more experience. This is F9 if they decide to fly international widebody operations. I suggest F9 stay at the high school level and play other high-school airlines (JetBlue, Airtran, Southwest, Alaska, ATA, America West)."

Right now, some of those "high school airlines" are teaching their elders how to survive in the industry. . .and the elders are following.

Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Frontier A330's

Thu Jan 08, 2004 1:36 am

...."Many of the smaller, regional carriers which have purchased wide bodies in the past did not have much success with them overall. PeoplExpress didn't last much longer after it got the 747..."

-------------------------------------------

Uhh, didn't People Express start with 747's and later obtain narrow bodies?
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
ScottB
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RE: Frontier A330's

Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:27 am

Nope, PeoplExpress started with a bunch of narrowbodies -- used 727's and 737's if memory serves correctly.

I was gonna say, maybe Frontier could start a lucrative DEN-HNL-NGO route; we all know just how well PHX-HNL-NGO did for America West back in the day! Heck, why start out with A330's when they could clearly fill an A380!!!

Seriously, A320's might work for F9. If I owned FRNT shares and saw a press release announcing an order for A330's, I'd be selling them as fast as I could.
 
sllevin
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RE: Frontier A330's

Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:49 am

PeoplExpress started with virtually the littlest of narrowbodies -- 737-100's they got from Lufthansa...some of which flew with CO until just 4 or 5 years ago!

Steve
 
ual777contrail
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RE: Frontier A330's

Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:36 am

bistro1200,
Very good analogy, DIA not every major can be on top every time.


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