gkirk
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TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:09 pm

http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/thejournal/content_objectid=13785438_method=full_siteid=50081_headline=-Row%2Dover%2Darmed%2DMarshals-name_page.html

This security thing is getting way too serious now though, and as it seems that the UK government aint listening to the people that fly the planes then, seems correct to stop the flights to the USA. No terrorist would try and get on a charter airline for god sake.

So, should air marshalls be allowed onboard?
My opinion, is No.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
ba757
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshals On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:23 pm

I agree - air marshals should not be allowed on board, we have tried for years to stop guns getting onboard and now we are putting them on - not good.

But, charter airlines are a target as much as any other airline. After all, it was a charter flight that had a missile fired at it a few years ago. (the Arkia one)

Adam
 
gkirk
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:31 pm

Yes you have a point about the Arkia incident.
But remember, the a/c used on 9/11 were not full. Charter airliners generally are, the TCX A330 to SFB from NCL usually is pretty full, so I dont think it'd be hard for 370 people to overpower 3 or 4 hijackers.
But we'll have to wait and see. Guns onboard an a/c is not a good thing at all.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Demoose
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:55 pm

I'm all for there being some sort of security guard onboard certain flights, but bringing a gun into the equation doesn't seem the safest thing to be doing. Surely there's otherways to stop a terrorist onboard which does not involve such a risk, maybe some kind of sedative or something.

Thomas Cook Airlines will today have a chance to air their views with the UK Department of Transport. I wonder what the view is of the other charter airlines flying in US airspace.

I do agree with Thomas Cook's apparent theory that if the threat to a flight is significant enough to warrent an armed marshal onboard then the flight should not be leaving the ground in the first place.

BBC News also has a report on TCX's statement...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/3370323.stm

Mark
Take a ride...fly across the sky
 
Pe@rson
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:33 pm

"We have tried for years to stop guns getting onboard and now we are putting them on - not good."

But guns would be brought on by trained professionals, not John Smith.

"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
gkirk
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:40 pm

And where would these trained professionals come from? What if one of these professionals had an unknown link to terrorism? What if one of these professionals turned out to be a terrorist?
The British government should not take this risk...
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
toltommy
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:41 pm

You'd have a different opinion if the 9/11 planes had hit Buckingham Palace or the Tower of London. If TCX thinks it is good business to stop flying to the US, that's their choice.
 
gkirk
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:48 pm

"You'd have a different opinion if the 9/11 planes had hit Buckingham Palace or the Tower of London"

Actually I wouldnt. I'd probacare less if it hit one of those two buildings as I dont give a hoot about Buckingham Palace as I think the Royal Family is useless anyway.
Remember if some UK charter airlines stopped flying to Florida, then it would also hit the US tourism economy, so it's better for all sides if they continued flying.
How is 1 Air marshall going to cope against 7 or 8 terrorists. They'd easily overpower him and take the gun and then all hell would break loose.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
voodoo
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:49 pm

I don't actually think the UK pilots are objecting the marshalls per se, but to the fact that if a flight is deemed such a risk so as to require sky marshalls, should the flight leave the ground in the first place. And you'll never train enough properly motivated good natural shots to take these jobs to have them on every flight anyway.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
toltommy
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:53 pm

Remember, if some UK charter airlines stop flying to the US, Britons will find another way to get to the US. Another charter operator will see the demand, and take their place. Trust me, I see plenty of sunburned Brits on their way home to the UK!  Big grin

How will 1 Air Marshal cope against 7 or 8 terrorists? First of all it liely would be more than 1, secondly, the possibility of an Air Marshal on board acts as a deterrent. Let's face it, most terrorists don't try to start trouble when there's the possibility of failure. They only attack when they feel they will have no resistance.
 
toltommy
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:54 pm

Voodoo -

Then El Al should never fly, is that what you are saying?
 
voodoo
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:59 pm

The old El Al argument is completely invalid as their security (ground/air) is thoroughly integrated and the threat is constant. No comparison is possible.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
gkirk
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:01 pm

TOLtommy: But 370 Geordies on an A330 should be able to overcome7 or 8 terrorists, who shouldnt have weapons if they have went through security on the ground properly.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
MD88Captain
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:18 pm

Why do you insist that the terrorists won't have weapons? They will. Airport security is not perfect. It is not inpenetrable. Are you aware of the many prohibited items that make it onto aircraft today? Are you aware of the threat that multiple terrorists can each board a seemingly harmless component and then construct a weapon after they are onboard? Relying on ground security is silly. A layered approach including AM's is the best way to go. I want AM's every time I go to work. They are professionals.
 
goboeing
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:23 pm

"Airport security is not perfect. It is not inpenetrable. Are you aware of the many prohibited items that make it onto aircraft today?"

Absolutely right. I almost inadvertently boarded a Southwest Airlines flight 2 weeks ago with a swiss army knife in my bag. They found my nail clippers, but didn't say a word about a tool with multiple knife blades!!! I checked the bag in so I could keep my nail clippers, but I could have boarded the plane with the knife with no problem at all.

Nick
 
gkirk
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:54 pm

Yes its not perfect, but it should be. Talking about air marshalls, the ground security needs to be perfect, or as close to perfect as it can be.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:04 am

Unfortunately there is no such thing as 100% security, there has never been and never will be. Conventional methods such as screening and metal detectors are as far as we can go at the moment, although new technology will surely help. The nightmare scenario though, is the prospect of a terrorist swallowing a liquid form of explosive into their stomachs and detonating inflight, how do you detect that. We already have a problem with Jamaicans who swallow drugs into their stomachs and bring them into the UK on Air Jamaica flights to LHR.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
cainanuk
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:08 am

GKirk...

You ask how one air marshall would cope with 7 or 8 terrorists. It is very rare for a flight with marshalls on board to only have one marshall. They usually travel in teams of 2-5 marshalls. Also, I am sick of the perception put forth by the liberal media that these marshalls would be a bunch of gun toting Yank cowboys. These air marshalls are trained, counter terrorism officers. In the US, many come from the military special forces community including Delta Force and the US Nave SEALs (specifically SEAL Team 6, the designated point unit in the counter terrorism effort). They know what they are doing and how to handle themselves in a sticky situation. They are trained in hand to hand combat. They are also trained as to the effects of firearms on an aircraft and to only use them as a last resort. The dont go willy nilly losing their guns or accidentally shooting them. They dont even advertise that they are who they are.

Personally, I feel better knowing that they may be on board. I hope that they would be on board every single flight, not just the threatened ones.
Cainan Cornelius
 
gkirk
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:12 am

Ok, but it should be up to the Captain who should be allowed on board, if they want a marshall onboard with a gun, then fair enough, if not, then the marshall shouldnt be allowed on.
Remember, the Captain is the one in charge of the a/c.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
carduelis
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:17 am

I almost inadvertently boarded a Southwest Airlines flight 2 weeks ago with a swiss army knife in my bag. They found my nail clippers, but didn't say a word about a tool with multiple knife blades!!! I checked the bag in so I could keep my nail clippers, but I could have boarded the plane with the knife with no problem at all.

Where did you have the security check - before or after checking-in?

If it was after check-in (as normal) how did you almost board the aircraft?

Was the bag you checked-in, with your nail clippers, the same bag that contained your Swiss Army knife?

If it was - how can you say you almost inadvertently boarded?

When did you realise that you had your knife in the bag?

Reason for asking these question is to try and understand your posting.


Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
FinnWings
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshals On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:04 am

Personally I don't believe at all that Air marshals are good solution. It is funny to read such a comments that they are trained, professionals, knows what to do...etc.etc...

Terrorists have big advantage in aircraft as they can take hostages and use those as human shields. Air marshals have to take care that they don't shoot towards passengers, windows or other places which may cause damage for the aircraft. Terrorist don't afraid to kill and they can shoot anywhere without thinking the damage they may cause. It is also honor for them to die and they don't afraid it. Do you really also think that few Air marshals on board can easily look after maybe 300-400 passengers all the time! As the passengers are sitting on their seats you aren't even able to see their hands! There can also be many "sleeping terrorists" on board, which react only after they have seen who are Air marshals...

It is funny to read all your "facts" which don't base for any truth... I guess many of you writing those opinions don't have any ideas of military tactics, psychology or how terrorists act? I'm not professional either, but at least I know something as I'm reserve officer of Air Force and has been involved in many different training operations with guns.

Like said before, my opinion is that security screening at the airport and bullet proof cockpit doors are best what we can do... Aircrafts and guns just are not good mixture, even on the hands of professionals like Air marshals. My national carrier as well as many European carriers have announced they will rather cancel the flights than take guns on board. I'm delighted of their decision...

Safe Flying,
FinnWings
 
Leskova
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:17 am

First of all, even though Sky Marshalls are trained, I think I'd continue to feel safer on a plane if there were no guns aboard... not that I'd know if an armed Sky Marshall is on board anyway, but nonetheless...

Second, I think it's Thomas Cook Airlines' right to decide not to fly planes with Sky Marshalls on board - just as much as it is the right of the American side to deny them access to the US: but I think that it is somewhat idiotic to go around telling everyone that you won't have Sky Marshalls on board - to me that sounds a bit like an invitation to terrorists, even if the chances for that happening are slim.

Third, and this is something that's just occurred to me: who exactly knows if Sky Marshalls will be on board a plane? The pilots? Dispatch? Someone in the airlines' management?

I know there has been some discussion as to whether or not hijackers would be overwhelmed by the passengers as soon as they got up - but, and this is the actual point I'm getting at with the "who knows" question above: what if hijackers posed as Sky Marshalls? Would the passengers really know the difference? Would the crew know, before it's too late?

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
ScottishLaddie
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:07 am

Here's the latest on the fiasco in general.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3372395.stm
 
jmc757
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:08 am

hmmmm interesting... good for Thomas Cook, standing up for what they believe in. Wonder if any other airlines will board this bandwagon??

May be dreaming, but sure I heard on the radio that the governement were going to hold talks with BALPA and other unions this week to talk about this matter??

You'd have a different opinion if the 9/11 planes had hit Buckingham Palace or the Tower of London

Find this comment amazing. I know I wouldnt have a different opinion. What happened on 9/11 was tragic, but terrorism is not a new problem, we've dealt with our fair share.
 
eugdog
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:16 am

I have generally been in support of air marshals . But some of the arguements made by some of the above has made me rethink this.

I find the arguement that terrorists could take hostages as human shields and use it to overwhelm one or two air marshalls (they will be seated in different parts of the plane) obtain their weapons is a very strong arguement against AM.


Now I am not so sure if AM are a good idea!
 
mlsrar
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:23 am

Find this comment amazing. I know I wouldnt have a different opinion. What happened on 9/11 was tragic, but terrorism is not a new problem, we've dealt with our fair share.

I can only imagine the comfort it brings in being able to isolate one from the tragedy of 9/11. I know I will be blasted for making such a blanket generalization, but it is oft easy for those who are not directly related to relatives lost to dismiss the events, and try to place themselves in a different frame of mind...a victimized frame of mind to be accurate.

The collective postulate of those against the concept of armed guards on board aircraft seem to be outside of the U.S. This further isolates them from driving by and seeing the fading notations of unity from those remembering that day on highways, buildings, cars, and even an occasional shirt denoting a survivor or a relative.

I also feel that the concept of cancelling flights based on a known terrorist threat is absurd. If every threat could be known, then how would terrorism with air travel move forward? Are we all that supremely confident in our counter-terrorism and security measures that we can safely let every flight enter US airspace without any security on-board?

What about the [much smaller] force of air marshalls used prior to 9/11. Why wasn't there the united outcry?

I hear vague relations to El Al, and those having been dismissed as the state of Israel being under much more of a constant threat. I find this to be the citadel of ignorance. Of all the 'free' world, the US and Israel are equally vulnerable to attacks, and it is only through our isolarity in the world that the US is not prone to the daily bombings and attacks that Israel is subject to.

If we allow flights to enter airspace without any protection and regard for the citizens of the United States, then it is a collusive failure on both parties, and a gross neglect of the welfare of her people.
I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
Stretch 8
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:34 am

How about this: unarmed sky marshalls. Recruit big, beefy young guys, 4 or 5 per high-risk flight, blackbelts in tae kwon doe, stationed throughout the aircraft. Firearms should not be needed. Most of OBL's guys are little pricks who would probably crumble when faced with effective resistance.
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:39 am

I have generally been in support of air marshals . But some of the arguements made by some of the above has made me rethink this.I find the arguement that terrorists could take hostages as human shields and use it to overwhelm one or two air marshalls (they will be seated in different parts of the plane) obtain their weapons is a very strong arguement against AM. Now I am not so sure if AM are a good idea!

I remain convinced of the usefulness of air marshals, and am not impressed by the arguments given here (or by the attempts of some to say that because they were in military reserve, etc., everyone else should shut up and defer to them).

The El Al comparison is completely valid. The threat faced by the US and Europe is certainly "constant," and the US has been implementing "integrated" multi-level security more like Europe or Israel uses, since 9/11.

Why is the professional training of marshals so useless as to merit the snide dismissal several posters have offered? And yeah, I guess only posters on Airliners.net think about things like human shields; hope the FBI and DHS read this forum, or we're all in trouble. Yeah, air marshals of course would all be seated in a bunch, ready to be picked off. Again, only Airliners.net posters think of these things. A lot of this thread simply seems to represent European bias against guns and self-defense.

Thomas Cook air, of course, is free to do what they like. Other airlines are free to replace them. I'll take my chances with air marshals, thank you.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
necigrad
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:11 am

I say keep putting in the new flight deck doors. Give the pilots a meal, several bottles of water, and a portapotty. Then DON'T OPEN THE DOOR! Ablout the only way to get through that is with C4 or Semtex.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:25 am

"And where would these trained professionals come from? What if one of these professionals had an unknown link to terrorism? What if one of these professionals turned out to be a terrorist?"

M15? I don't know. Some professional body. They'd need to be totally checked out beforehand, of course. Nothing's perfect, you know, but you can try to make it as perfect as possible.

---

Come to our 2004 LHR meet. See the non-av forum for details.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
gigneil
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 8:50 am

Arguments against their professionalism is ridiculous.

Most sky marshals in the US are just that, either part of the US Marshals Service or a similar law enforcement agency. If we can't trust these people, we have far greater problems.

N
 
GC
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshalls On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 9:06 am

"You'd have a different opinion if the 9/11 planes had hit Buckingham Palace or the Tower of London. If TCX thinks it is good business to stop flying to the US, that's their choice. "

As has been said before this isn't news to us. Only 60 years ago our grandfather's generation (many of whom are still alive) suffered a 9/11 in each of our major cities just about every night from 1940-45.

Also ever since I can remember (I'm 30), until very recently you could get blown to pieces at any minute by an IRA bomb by walking around in London, Manchester or Belfast. We take security VERY seriously, but we never allowed the terrorists to dictate our everyday life. Look at the difference between the situation in Bahgdad to the relative peace in Basra. Two different approaches, but we have the benefit of experience in Northern Ireland. I feel the USA is having a knee jerk reaction. The only good it will do is kill tourism. Don't forget there was a highly trained elite Israeli commando on the flight that crashed in Penn. on 9/11. The terrorists just took him out first when he put up a fight.
 
Mir
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RE: TCX To Stop US Flights If Sky Marshals On A/c

Wed Jan 07, 2004 10:30 am

Reading this, I couldn't help have the thought that the crew could just announce that there was an air Marshall onboard the flight so that even if there wasn't, any terrorists would think twice about trying anything. Just the possibility of it might be enough of a deterrent.
I just think guns and planes were never meant to go together peacefully. Professionalism of the marshals aside (and I'm sure they would be well trained), having a gun in a plane is just an accident waiting to happen.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day

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