martinairyyz
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VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:09 am

Hello,

I recently spoke with a retired BA 744 pilot who said that VS is considering return to YYZ on the LHR-YYZ route using their 744's or A34x's (aircraft type is still not fully known).

If this goes through, service may begin in late 2004 or mid 2005.

Cheers! Big thumbs up

Martin
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
Aviationman
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:19 am

Hi Martin, there was also a rumor about Montreal. I'll believe it when I see it.
 
donder10
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:35 am

The London-Montreal market is a LOT smaller than the London-Toronto market.If they re-start flights to Canada it will be TO.
 
Aviationman
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:53 am

Why did they leave TO after a few flights? Why leave TO if TO is such a big market? Montreal may not be as big/large as TO....But maybe Montreal has something to offer? I will still believe in VS come back when I see them parked at a gate in YYZ.....or at a gate at YUL.
 
captaingomes
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:14 am

This is not news. VS will likely return sometime, but when is only a matter of speculation on anybody's part.

VS left the YYZ market right after September 11th. The timing was very unlikely. It was a smart move, as entering a route will only become profitable after a while, and that is if all goes well. As we all know, nothing was going well at the time. VS had to take care of anything that was draining away at their funds.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:11 am

Nuno is right. VS will be back in YYZ and this is not news. YYZ is the 5th largest intercontinental market our of London...and the only one that VS does not serve.

Hopefully, VS will switch to LHR for YYZ flights which will be another nail in the coffin for AC.

YUL has never been mentioned by VS. It won't happen.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Aviationman
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:18 am

Neil, how do you know VS never mentioned YUL? Your word against mne.
 
cayman
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:36 am

This came up on a thread awhile back and at the time I cited the VS VP of N America/Caribbean marketing as saying YYZ a very strong possibility but YUL out of the question...a number of other N American and caribbean destinations which are of far more interest to them.....

It's obvious why they withdrew in Oct/2001. What airline in the world didn't significantly cut-back service? BA and AC pulled back a lot of capacity on the route post 9/11, and obviously VS as a brand new startup (literally a matter of weeks into the service) was the third man on the pole....and they made a wise decision to end/suspend their inaugural service in that environment. To infer that the end of their service at that time means there was no long term market for them is just plain nonsense.

VS did serious marketing, research, study to decide to come to YYZ in the first place, and I submit would have made a good run of it but for the tragic events of 9/11.

But again we have more pie in the sky thinking to expect that suddenly they are going to re-consider their whole Canadian model (if they even come back at all to Canada) and jump on the YUL bandwagon that we keep hearing so much about.....YVR or YYC will get 2nd VS Cdn route long before YUL does......
 
ScottishLaddie
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:07 am

I heard that they would be starting to SXM from LGW or LHR primarily for cruise passengers.
 
amhilde
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:10 am

Isnt that around when they also pulled out of ORD? Theyve yet to return to that market- or is that because of substantial competition out of UAL/AA/BD/any other carrier you care to name on that route, especially to LHR?
Hang on tightly, Let go lightly
 
Goose
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:13 am

But again we have more pie in the sky thinking to expect that suddenly they are going to re-consider their whole Canadian model (if they even come back at all to Canada) and jump on the YUL bandwagon that we keep hearing so much about.....YVR or YYC will get 2nd VS Cdn route long before YUL does......

Even though YYC is my home town, I highly doubt we'll see VS here. YVR will definately be before us.

I'd be surprised if that didn't happen sooner rather than later; I heard some positive things about the BA seasonal service to YVR...... if true, it'd be doubtless to attract serious consideration from VS.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
CO737800
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:16 am

I see YVR as a good route. If BA can have a daily flight to yvr I think VS would do very well here.
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:19 am

I'm not holding my breath...although it's something I'd definitely like to see, although I doubt we'd see the 744 or the 346. We'd likely see the 343 only.

I'd also be interested to see how this plays out with the rumoured "Virgin American" which is currently in the pipe.

G

 
YYZ4RADD
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:25 am

I am not so sure. I live near the airport at YYZ and have seen the VS 747 quite several times during their run here before. Mind you, beautiful plane. I have a feeling they might try out the A346 as well, as a feeler. Cargo capacity for A346 and A343 are quite high compared to the B747 and VS would capitalize on this. Besides, there are many who would take VS to LHR from here instead of AC or BA.

YYZ4RADD
 
scf158
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:44 am

I think VS should consider YVR, especially in the summer where BA constantly overbooks flights and has such a high demand for their YVR-LHR flights...

 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:48 am

Well, VS would be a nice addition to YYZ, particularly if they use the 346.
Does anyone have any predictions on when an announcement would be made? I'm planning a trip to Greece via the UK to see some family later this year. I've got to start booking soon since the Olympics are going to be in Greece the same time I plan to be there.

G
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:20 am

It's not a question of "if" but rather "when for the return of VS to YYZ as my esteemed colleague Captaingomes stated above. I just hope it's this summer.

Cheers,
Kaz
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:38 am

Aren't rumours like this connected to those that VS is looking at adding more L/H capacity in the next 12 to 24 months? The only new route announced is an extension of the LHR-HKG service to SYD. But if VS is looking at adding more A340s or even the 777 (breaking its 4 engines for longhaul motto) then YYZ would likely be one of those routes VS is interested. ORD too must be a contender. Guess we'll just as to wait and see...
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
C-GRYK
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:38 am

To all doubters.... Virgin WILL be back in Canada one day, and if you honestly believe they will service YUL before returning to YYZ, YYYEAH! Keep dreaming! There is a reason VS was in YYZ and not YUL on it's first attempt at Canada...

I don't think they will be back this year, but it's my opinion that they will return once they start adding more flights to North America... Perhaps ORD and YYZ (both cut at the same time post 9/11) will be announced as the first cities they will expand to. We will just have to wait and see.

But as Nuno said this isn't news and shouldn't really be posted as such, VS has always said they would try to return to YYZ when they get expanding into North America again. This is nothing new.

Jeremy
Think before you type!
 
behramjee
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:06 am

VS stopped YYZ service for a variety reasons...though pax loads were good they flew from LGW thus making it inconvienient for transitting pax to go to LHR to catch a flight to DEL-LOS-JNB-CPT...that was their initial mistake.

Then after 9/11, they stopped YYZ and ORD because they were new markets being flown by ageing B 742s which were quickly retired after 9/11 as VS concentrated on building up its already proven core routes in North America and South Africa.

If VS wants to restart YYZ, Im all for it and they should start with daily A 346s to first test the market then upgrade to a B 744 in the peak winter-summer seasons where demand over exceeds supply. But for VS to be successful, it must fly to YYZ from LHR so that it can take pax onwards to DEL-SIN-JNB-CPT-LOS all of which are popular destinations with resident and expat Canadians plus local holidaymakers.
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:25 am


Behramjee...Always the voice of reason. Another thoughful and well written post.

G
 
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yyz717
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:35 am

But for VS to be successful, it must fly to YYZ from LHR so that it can take pax onwards to DEL-SIN-JNB-CPT-LOS all of which are popular destinations with resident and expat Canadians plus local holidaymakers.

Not just connecting traffic....but LHR yields are higher since LHR captures the business traffic destined for London as LGW is less convenient.

Indeed, VS stated in 2001 that the reason YYZ flights were from LGW was due to a lack of slots at LHR.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
martinairyyz
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:43 am

This summer? I would think if it was to be restarted this summer an announcement would already have been made!

That would be great if they did restart because finally BA would have some competition here! (Fights for Lower ticket prices)

Martin
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
quebecair727
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:02 am

Even though I would love to see VS in YUL, I don't think this will happen. From YUL, UK is well served on a daily basis. UK is not France. The natural link that exists between Québec and France does not exist between Québec and UK.
 
CanadaEH
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:08 pm

Someone mentioned that Virgin could start service to YVR..

In the summertime, we have:

British Airways: 744, daily.
Air Canada: 763, three times daily.
Air Transat: 332, four times weekly (I believe) to LGW.
Thomas Cook: I can't remember if they fly to LGW or AMS, but it was daily service on 332 or 763.

Could we use another London flight in Vancouver? There was talk last summer of BA operating a second LHR flight - nothing more than a rumour, however.
EH.
 
CanadaEH
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:09 pm

There is also service from Zoom to LGW, which I believe was once weekly.
EH.
 
flyyul
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:19 pm

The YUL rumour - as unfounded as it may seem, some VS executive told the Montreal media that it has been favorably viewed and would receive service in the medium term future.. I dont expect anything but pleasant words that mean nothing.

The YYZ-LHR market has too much competition for VS to perhaps succesfully make it. In the summer AC has 6 flights, TS has a daily, SSV has somecharters, BA has 3 FLIGHTS, now your gonna have Thomas Cook/MyTravel combo amount to a daily flight as well.

Anyway, all the rumours in this thread are unfounded, and are pure speculation with no basis to it. We should regard it as just that. Although I'd love to come to YYZ and see a VS tail there! (I know Jeremy is gonna have a few wet dreams about this one  Big thumbs up )

Mark
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:25 pm


Is Zoom still flying?
Hey Mark -- How was the cruise?

G
 
C-GRYK
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:27 pm

LOL Markus! I'll even wear my purple Virgin shirt for ya!

We need more virgins in Toronto...

Jeremy
Think before you type!
 
cayman
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:31 pm

Mark, on this part of your last post we are 100% in agreement...all the VS talk is speculation and rumour and must be qualified accordingly......

And I think you are right...there is too much capacity not necessarily too much competition...that is...if VS adds an A346 to YYZ and AC and BA and all the charters keep their capacity, that would be too much.

But I think the idea would be to steal away some of the BA and AC marketshare...maybe easier said than done but they do have kind of a unique product (or thats the perception) and they have a lot of branding goodwill...if the price is the same or close to the same a lot of pax might gladly jump on a nice new VS A346 rather than an old AC 762...plus they might offer some good connections if they make it LHR.

Only time will tell....

All the best....

(PS Mark if you were on a cruise you didn't pass through Cayman waters did you? There are typically a ton of those big cruiseships in here daily....cheers....)
 
flyyul
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:37 pm

nah Mike,

I just went to SXM (I got jetblasted by an AA757), and recovering from it!

Going to BGI and FDF.

best Regards,
Mark
 
behramjee
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:39 pm

First of all...with regards to YVR...BA flies a B 744 daily, AC flies an A 333 nonstop daily as well as a B 763 BUT VIA YYZ thus not nonstop.

Is there demand for another entry like VS in YVR...maybe so but not with a B 744...an A 343 or A 346 is perfect for the route to be flown daily from LHR. VS has anyday on its A 346 and A 343 a better inflight product than AC so it can capture a lot of its mkt share on this route as well as YYZ-LHR-YYZ.

Lots of Indians will welcome VS to YVR as it will give them another (very good) option to take to DEL and tourists can take it to South Africa + oil businessmen in Calgary and Edmonton fly via YVR on VS and then via LHR to LAGOS (Nigeria is the world's 5th largest oil producer and OPEC member).

As far as FLYYUL feels that there is too much competition on the YYZ-LHR-YYZ and that VS will feel the brunt of it...you should know by now that especially between May-Sept and late Nov-late Jan...seat demand on this route over exceeds supply each year so in the peak season the additional capacity offered by a VS A 346 or even a B 744 is very much welcome and appreciated by locals and foreigners flying the route!!!

Once again I repeat, VS has a superb marketing team and an amazing inflight product which is 100 times better than ACs in premium and economy class plus from LHR you can connect and take GF-EK onwards to the Middle East and Indian subcontinent (those cities which VS doesnt fly to) as both airlines have agreements with VS for trans-atlantic routes to USA and CANADA.

If VS comes to YYZ starting with daily B 744s, expect a brutal fare and marketing war to be unleashed in YYZ and the media between itself-BA and AC  Big grin
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:45 pm

Mark,
If you're still on the cruise --- What the hell are you doing on the computer? Go to the sundeck man; or hit the bar and meet a girl. If you ever get the chance to do another cruise --- definitely stop at Georgetown...Nicest island in the world IMHO.

As for VS, if they DO come to Canada, I'd be very excited to see their marketing concepts. They've got some of the cheekiest and most brilliant ad campaigns out there. I'd be interested to see what their Canadian marketing strategy would be like.

Sorry to get off topic.

G
 
CanadaEH
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:56 pm

Behramjee: I was refering to summertime flights, not winter flights.  Smile
EH.
 
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yyz717
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:59 pm

The YYZ-LHR market has too much competition for VS to perhaps succesfully make it.

VS usually thrives in competition. They have nothing to fear from AC. VS could well undermine AC on YYZ-LHR. If AC liquidates......watch VS jump into the market quickly.

Anyway, all the rumours in this thread are unfounded, and are pure speculation with no basis to it.

LOL...Mark..you're the biggest rumour merchant around! You start threads based on rumours about YUL all the time!

If you're still on the cruise --- What the hell are you doing on the computer? Go to the sundeck man; or hit the bar and meet a girl.

He's there with his parents.





I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:39 pm

"LOL...Mark..you're the biggest rumour merchant around! You start threads based on rumours about YUL all the time!"

-And ive got the sources, and the track record to back it up. Consult the archives if you will. And about AZ and your smart azz comment (which is the only thing your good for these days), I dare you to call Ernesto D'allesandro (or you may email him) and ask him if such a possibility existed. You may also email James Cherry of the ADM and ask him the same also. (BTW, im expecting another smart azz remark from you)


Canuckpaxguy:
Its midnight here, and its damn boring. So many old people on this boat, its making me sick. We met a couple from YYC, they are on the cruise and they filmed my girlfriend and I getting blasted by an AA 757. I hope to hve that footage on my computer by the time i get home. Cant drink till your 21' in this god foresaken boat. Sigh, another 3/4 of a year  Big thumbs up

Mark




 
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yyz717
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:20 pm

And about AZ and your smart azz comment (which is the only thing your good for these days), I dare you to call Ernesto D'allesandro (or you may email him) and ask him if such a possibility existed.

Let me get this str8......you can "confirm" that the "possibility" existed that AZ "thought" about adding YUL service? That's a LONG way from actual flights landing. More YUL noise......that's all it is.  Laugh out loud

I dare you to call Ernesto D'allesandro......You may also email James Cherry of the ADM and ask him the same also.

No Mark....I don't harass people unnecessarily when they're at work...nor should you. If/when AZ plans to add YUL service (which seems highly unlikely)....I can wait for the press release....and so should you.

Anyway, back to the original topic.....I agree with the poster above that when VS returns to YYZ it will be with the smaller 343 which will be less risky than the 744/346 and help boost yields. Indeed, the only remaining 742 in the VS fleet is MAN based.


[Edited 2004-01-12 07:41:50]
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:05 pm

And so what?

What is Virgin to YYZ? At this point, what is Turkish/EK/SQ/BMI and all this talk about new service to YYZ? Sounds like YYZ noise to me.

I dont think I was harassing Mr.Allesandro, he was travelling with to FCO via DTW/AMS on NW/KL is September, nice fellow actually.

Mark
 
LH423
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:23 pm

I have to agree with Yyz717, if/when VS resumes service it will most likely be with the A340-300, not -600. The only reason I could see them starting the route with an A346 is simply to get attention "look we have the newest plane with the latest amenities" and try and steal some pax from AC and BA who'll go for the newer and shinier model, however that won't make them money initially so I'd expect a daily A343 and possibly a 346 after a while if the route does well.

you should know by now that especially between May-Sept and late Nov-late Jan...seat demand on this route over exceeds supply each year so in the peak season the additional capacityoffered by a VS A 346 or even a B 744 is very much welcome and appreciated by locals and foreigners flying the route!!!

Yes and just because the capacity exists doesn't mean you want to flood the market with seats. If that happens then you get a fare war and prices drop, people travel, but no one makes money and everyone loses out. Which also part of my initial point. There is already a lot of capacity on the YYZ-LHR route that VS would be smart to start conservatively with a daily A340-300 and if demand still exists then bump it up to something a little bit larger.

The great thing about the VS fleet is that it's very versatile. Here in BOS VS uses aircraft to tailor-fit demand. During the Summer it's a daily 744 (to add to the 2 744 and 1 777 of BA, and 2 AA 777), during the Fall and early winter it's a mix of 343 and 346, during the heart of Winter (right now) it's a 343, and then reverts to the 346 during the Spring. They always have an appropriate amount of capacity (if not too little) to maintain demand and keep decent yields.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
MAH4546
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RE: VS To Consider YYZ A Possible New Destination!

Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:29 pm

First of all...with regards to YVR...BA flies a B 744 daily, AC flies an A 333 nonstop daily as well as a B 763 BUT VIA YYZ thus not nonstop.


June through October, Air Canada offers two daily YVR-LHR flights. One 763 and one 333.
a.