flyingbronco05
Posts: 3484
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 11:43 am

U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:10 am

U.S. Pushes Forward on Passenger Risk Database

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. government is moving forward on a computerized system containing background information on air travelers despite resistance from airlines and privacy advocates, The Washington Post reported on Monday.

The government will require airlines and air travel booking companies to let officials see passenger records, the newspaper said. Passengers through U.S. airports would be scored with a number and a color that ranks their perceived threat to the aircraft they are traveling on, the paper said.

A separate program is due to be launched this year that would give frequent fliers quicker passage through security checks if they volunteer personal information to the government, the newspaper said."

More at: http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=NW_1-T&oldflok=FF-RTO-rontz&idq=/ff/story/0002%2F20040112%2F070565967.htm&sc=rontz&photoid=20031222VAKW102

FB05
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
AirDude66
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:48 pm

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:43 am

Lets hear it for corporate aviation.

If this happens, it is time to stop flying commercial !
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:21 am

So much for Airline Privacy Policy and Citizenship Rights.  Pissed  Pissed
Puhdiddle
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:34 pm

The Cleveland Plain Dealer had a very good editorial on this "Big Brother" program that the Bush Administration and the TSA is pushing.

http://www.cleveland.com/editorials/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1073990107158771.xml

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Editorials

Magic markers

01/13/04


Haven't quite gotten your fill of government-assigned color coding yet? Then this could be your year - especially if you are among the Americans who will be taking one of the 600 million or so flights somewhere on a commercial carrier.

If you are, the Transportation Security Administration is preparing a color just for you. And you'd better be hoping it's green.

Because green, placed somewhere on your ticket or in the computer that spits it out, will let you go through the normal security checkpoint process with just the standard amount of hassle. Put your shoes in the basket, along with your coat, keys, wallet, glasses and change, grab your belt buckle and walk slowly through the metal detector. Do not smile.

But if you are yellow, you'll be wishing things were that easy. You'll most likely be invited into a quiet room where a couple of very serious agents will ask you to explain just why you want to get on that airplane.

And if you come up red, well, cancel your reservations at the other end. You're not going anywhere - except, possibly, to jail.

You will receive your color, the Washington Post reports, because the TSA has decided you must. It will compel airlines and reservation companies to hand over your name, home address and phone number, date of birth and travel itinerary so it can compile a database of all Americans who travel.

It intends to do this - there's some reasonable question as to whether it indeed is capable of such a compilation - to ferret out from the 99.99 percent of innocent American voyagers the 0.01 percent or so whose intentions may be terrorist, or simply criminal.

What the TSA proposes to do is monstrous, both in scope and potential for mistakes or misuse. It is a breathtaking invasion of privacy, cloaked in the shibboleth of anti-terrorism.

It is nothing less than the next step toward building the discredited, but undying, dream of the Giant Know-It-All Machine, put forward 14 months ago by the Office of Information Awareness of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency: Put everything recorded in databases about every American citizen into one colossal security system; with such "total information awareness," the dangerous would be isolated and the innocent protected.

Congress tried to spike that police-state recipe, but the idea refuses to die. The TSA proposal, known as the Computer-Assisted Passenger Pre-Screening Program 2, is but its latest iteration. It is to be compelled because earlier attempts to get airlines to voluntarily turn over all this information were rejected out-of-hand by the flying public.

If the legions of American who fly are to be pre-sorted for security purposes, let it be along the voluntary system proposed by the airlines: Let passengers apply for special identification that would certify their low threat potential. But Americans neither need, nor want, this latest iteration of Big Brother peering at them every time they wish to fly.
 
airbazar
Posts: 6874
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:40 pm

Like I said here a couple of weeks ago. If the check-in agent can't do a task a simple as entering mine and my wife's country of citizenship correctly into the system, then I have no problem agreeing with those who say this is a huge waste.
 
FMAL
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:16 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:35 am

Didn't they have this kind of database in countries like East Germany? Their secret police new everything about every person who lived there. Now "The Land of The Free" seeks a similar database.

I'm just surprise that there isn't a mass revolt in the streets of the US right now. This administration is destroying every personal freedom americans have, and is slowly helping to destroy the world economy.

The airlines are struggling as it is, if things continue the way they are, there will be thousands and thousands of new unemployed airline workers.

Regards

FMAL
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:05 am

Well, I know it is a serious invasion of privacy, but if they want my info, they can have it. I ain't got nuthin to hide.
Puhdiddle
 
AlekToronto
Posts: 321
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 7:42 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:20 am

I love to hear all those "I've got nothing to hide" arguments..
wonder what these "innocent" people are going to do when they are labeled RED for whatever reason (same last name as some criminal?) and denied boarding and their "beloved" government will not tell them why either!

I have no problems with massive security..strip search me..i don't care, but when it comes to handing massive amounts of personal information to the government..people don't realize how dangerous that is!

You may think you have nothing to hide..but when your credit rating is damaged because you travel a lot or police visit you cause you bought a Farmers Almanac online or you get denied a job cause you have bought porn using your credit card (don't laugh..it will happen) things won't seem so rosy will they?

personally I would rather fly NAKED then have the airline/government run a credit check on me every time I fly!
cheers!
Alek
 
cytz_pilot
Posts: 389
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 1999 3:34 pm

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:25 am

I'm just surprise that there isn't a mass revolt in the streets of the US right now. This administration is destroying every personal freedom americans have, and is slowly helping to destroy the world economy.

I guess that once again, it's proof that people are scared...they don't want to appear on blacklists or appear unpatriotic. Well, in all honesty, I wouldn't either! That's why I've been curtailing my planespotting with all the problems I've heard...even though I don't live in the States, it's very similar here and I don't need the hassle of police encounters.

But quite frankly, every American knows and is proud of the fact that the United States is a democracy. The government is one that is for, of, and by the people (sorry if I have the saying wrong), so wouldn't it be unpatriotic NOT to ask questions, and speak out when they feel they are being wronged?

Sorry if I offend anyone by saying that, I mean no harm, I simply offer my humble opinion.

[Edited 2004-01-14 03:27:43]

[Edited 2004-01-14 03:57:06]
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:54 am

Wasn't one of the flights around New Years cancelled because some five year old kid who was scheduled to fly had the same name as a terror suspect? Well, with this policy, that kid would be red-listed. And he wouldn't be the only accidental victim. There would be hundreds more.

And one of the worst parts is, if you have an arabic name, the chances of you getting mistaken for a terrorist are a lot greater than anyone else.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
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RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:08 pm

I have mixed feelings about this. Yes, it does seem like an invasion of privacy. But on the other hand, in my opinion, this sort of profiling--more than anything else--could have prevented 9/11. I don't blame the people at the security checkpoints--no one could have guessed that box cutters would cause so much harm. No, I blame the airline personnel who didn't think to question why these groups of Middle Eastern men were buying one-way first class tickets with wads of cash. That should have smelled fishy from a mile away, and that's the sort of thing that this system is intended to prevent. Of course there will be some false alarms, and some people will be wrongly inconvenienced, but I know I'd rather be strip-searched, credit-checked and interrogated every time I fly than see another person die in an airline-related act of terrorism.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
AlekToronto
Posts: 321
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 7:42 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:27 pm

"but I know I'd rather be strip-searched, credit-checked and interrogated every time I fly than see another person die in an airline-related act of terrorism."

-no disrespect man, but that is EXACTLY what the gov't is hoping for..minimal resistance to any new measures..as they keep reminding us of what happened 9/11..yes it was a mind blowing tragedy (lost one of my best high school pals there) but we need to take off the blinders and see what is happening.
Both my parents come from countries where the government had massive amounts of information about their citizens (and forced them to have ID cards, papers) and used it against them whenever they could. The stories my parents, grandparents told me chill me to the bone!

I for one do not see the problem with Racial Profiling..The Isrealis (EL AL) do it, dont appologize and never get hijacked. I know I will get FLAMED for this but it is the truth. Practically all the major hijackings, terrorist activity caused against the US have been commited by Arab Males. (I am quite aware of Oklahoma..there are always slight exceptions) THIS IS A FACT. Yes i know there are other terrorist groups (IRA, ETA, etc..) however when did they hijack an American Plane?

I would like to think we can be colourblind, but everytime I see a 90 year old grandma practically strip searched at the gate in LAX or JFK for her yearly visit to see her grandkids I think..when was the last time a 90 year old American Grandmother hijacked a plane????? The US really needs to concentrate on where the risks lie, the current proposal treats EVERYONE as a POSSIBLE terrorist.

This latest measure is just a blantant information grab, and I wonder what all those "nothing to hide" types will think when it comes back to bite them on the a"@! and it will.

I reinterate my earlier comment - I would rather be stripsearched, bags opened and searched then let any government collect information on me and let it go wherever..(I have nothing to hide as they say..but nobody on this world is innocent)

my 2cents
cheers!
Alek
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:00 pm

Of course there will be some false alarms, and some people will be wrongly inconvenienced, but I know I'd rather be strip-searched, credit-checked and interrogated every time I fly than see another person die in an airline-related act of terrorism.

The problem is, the consequences for a false alarm (the unforunate soul who gets mistaken for someone else being taken to jail, and possibly put through all sorts of hell before let go when the authorities figure out that they've got the wrong person) are so severe, and there is the potential for so many of them, that while the system is great in theory, in practice it would be awful.

It's a very fine line that the government has to walk, but I still think the most efficient way of making travel secure is to not let anything that's not supposed to be on the plane on the plane. X-ray every checked bag. Be extra careful at security checkpoints. But we cannot suddenly turn all 1984-ish because we want to be secure. Would we be more secure if this went through? Yes. Would we be America anymore? Absolutely not.

Terrorism is now a fact of life. We have to accept that. No security is perfect, and I am sure that one day down the line, another attack will come. But while the government goes and spends all this money on security measures that, IMHO are overkill, there are other serious problems in this country that need addressing.

From 1999 to 2001
2,926 died from terrorism
29,573 died from gun violence
43,987 died from motor vehicle accidents

I haven't seen the government try to do anything against the last two. What, are their lives less important than the people who died on September 11th?

This government has its priorities all wrong. This system is pointless, it sets a very dangerous precedent, and it does not help nearly enough to justify the expenditure. Spend that money elsewhere. The country will be better off for it.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:04 pm

From 1999 to 2001
2,926 died from terrorism
29,573 died from gun violence
43,987 died from motor vehicle accidents


Personally, I'd like to see more investments in researching cures for cancer, AIDS, and heart disease. If only we could have spent $87 Billion in those areas! People are most afraid of that which is least likely to kill them.


Practically all the major hijackings, terrorist activity caused against the US have been commited by Arab Males. (I am quite aware of Oklahoma..there are always slight exceptions)


Oklahoma wasn't just an isolated incident. McVeigh was a part of a much larger movement which can be directly linked with all kinds of terrible things in America's past.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
User avatar
Bruce
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RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:02 pm

Keep this in mind, folks:

If you are flagged "red" the TSA WILL NOT disclose to you WHY you are on that list and you will have NO opportunity for appeal of any kind.

lovely, isn't it.

bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2530
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RE: U Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:38 pm

The thing that I can't understand is why all those "freedom loving" Americans are so blindly patriotic that nobody (or only very few) people openly criticize proposals or acts of their government. It is NOT unpatriotic to protect your personal freedom!

You should just ask any person from Eastern Germany what it was like being spied upon by everybody all the time and yes, that IS where the US is heading under the so called "war on terror". It is more a way to make the own people shut up and give Dubya and his cronies even more power to fill their own pockets...

But I guess in the country that gave the world rock'n'roll you bow to the authorities and live in fear that ANYTHING negative you say about you administration will be held against you for the rest of your life.

I bet the next time I have to come to the US the immigration officer will lead me to a secluded room now...
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
Alpha 1
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RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:06 pm

Of course there will be some false alarms, and some people will be wrongly inconvenienced, but I know I'd rather be strip-searched, credit-checked and interrogated every time I fly than see another person die in an airline-related act of terrorism.

Great, FoxBravo. With people like you, quaking in their boots, and willing to throw away EVERY freedom they enjoy, simply for the illusion of safety, the terrorsts scumbags win by default. Congratulation on being willing to live in a dictatorship to feel "safe"

Welcome to the USSR, baby.
 
voodoo
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:14 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:31 pm

Pack it up. Go home. Nothing to see here.
The Terrorists have won the War on Terror.
Its all over. Their deed is done.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
Neo
Posts: 730
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 8:21 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:33 pm

I'm not gonna go to the US anytime soon now..... There are just some many other great places to go to where you don't have to go under such things like that.

This will only get worse..... more and more "security measures"....it feels like you are a criminal or something... Looks like the terrorists really got what they wanted....

Rgs,

Neo

 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:18 pm

Folks, wake up and smell the coffee. The government won't be getting any more information about you than it could get right now--if it wanted to! The problem is, too many people are under the illusion that the government cares that much about their personal information. Really, don't flatter yourself! There is not some large underground room where armies of government agents pore over your credit card bills, driving records, Blockbuster accounts, and kindergarten transcripts. The government has neither the resources nor the inclination to do anything more with this information than look for certain suspicious patterns related to airline travel--exactly the kinds of patterns that, had they been noticed, could have prevented 9/11.

Neo, I am truly sorry to hear that the paranoia on this message board has spoiled your impression of the United States. The fact is, when you're actually in the States, life goes on as always. We do not feel like criminals. Sure, there is tighter security at airports and certain other places, and we see a few more cops around than we used to, but it's no worse than you see in many other countries around the world. I work just a couple of blocks from Ground Zero, and my daily life right now is hardly different from before 9/11. We are a bit more alert, but we do not walk around in fear of the next terror attack, and our rights and freedoms are not being trampled on by the federal government.

I think this is very similar to how certain bad aspects about Brazil are blown out of proportion in other countries. Before I visited Brazil, I was told how dangerous and dirty it was, and that I would get mugged or shot. Did that happen? Of course not. Sure, there are some rough neighborhoods here and there, but almost every country has those. On the whole, it was one of the most beautiful and fascinating places I have ever visited, and I hope to go back and see more of the country. So, I hope you have the opportunity to visit the U.S. sometime soon and judge the current situation for yourself.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:32 pm

The problem is, too many people are under the illusion that the government cares that much about their personal information.

Nice to see someone defending the government. Fact is, they want all the information they can get. They tried that damn system that Admiral Poindexter was trying to spin up, that was a huge database of personal information, and when that leaked out (mind you, they didn't want it to be public knowledge), they embarrassingly scrapped it. This is the same thing. And who says they can't get this info? IF they have your SS somewhere, they can get damn well whatever they want about you. So, yes, it's a gross invasion of privacy.

The government has neither the resources nor the inclination to do anything more with this information than look for certain suspicious patterns related to airline travel--exactly the kinds of patterns that, had they been noticed, could have prevented 9/11.

I don't buy that for a second. IF they don't have the time, nor inclination, then why this huge database? You're telling me they're gathering this info, and NOT doing anything with it? Hell, SS), Taiwan">TSA is a huge bureaucracy now, and I guarantee that they're looking at as much of the information as possible.

Neo, I am truly sorry to hear that the paranoia on this message board has spoiled your impression of the United States.

He's, not paranoid, FoxBravo. It's the insane paranoia over hear-the smell of fear of anything that moves-that is making people not want to visit our land. We're taking their pictures and fingerprinting them like common criminals, all in the false hope of stopping a terrorist. It's folly. It's paranoia, and it's against all the principals this nation has stood for for two centuries.

I work just a couple of blocks from Ground Zero, and my daily life right now is hardly different from before 9/11.

Really? Before 9/11, were you really to give up every freedom you have and hold dear, for the illusion of stopping a terrorists attack? You've said that you would go through every indignity and every invasion of your privacy to stop a 9/11. That's paranoia. That's unabated fear. I'll bet your daily life didn't exist of that before 9/11. Again, actiing as you do, willing to give up so much out of fear, you let the terrorists win by default. I refuse to live like a animal in a cage, as you would have us do.

We are a bit more alert, but we do not walk around in fear of the next terror attack, and our rights and freedoms are not being trampled on by the federal government.

ROTFL. A bit more alert? Every other month, an Orange alert? And you're not walking around in fear, when, like I said, you're willing to endure such indignities and invasions of your privacy, simply for the illusion of "safety"? And keep believeing this Administration, led by a nut like Ashcroft, isn't tramling rights. The Patriot Act for starters; holding American citizens without being charged with a crime, without counsel, without contact with loved ones; desiring information about everyone who chooses to fly. I'd like to see your ideas of what you think would be the trampling of our rights. And, elect this Administration for another 4 years, and God help the Republic.

Until we get over this paranoia and stinking fear that we have, we'll continue to have people like FoxBravo, willing to give up their freedoms. We'll continue to have them meekly accept these trampling of decency and dignity, even if it means some people will be wrongly accused, even have their lives ruined by this paranoia, as long as he feels "safe" from another attack.

Maybe you want to live in fear. I don't. Which is why I oppose this new intervention on the part of our government.
 
VectorVictor
Posts: 384
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:31 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:22 am

Posting wildly on an internet message board might be good venting over these rediculous measures, but please do something concrete and write your senators and congresspersons and demand that they carefully consider these measures.

p.s. When I say write, I mean type up your letter in Word. Print it. Fold it. Stuff it envelope and mail it. Spend the effort to make yourself and your feelings heard...the way no email can.

But than again, getting flagged "red" can't happen to you...or can it?
 
voodoo
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:14 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:25 am

Of course if you write the `wrong' senator or congressman, who is to say you won't get filed in his `dangerous nut' file and that letter made a cause for `red' tagging in the future?
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:32 am

Sorry, Alpha 1, but my social security number is not a freedom that I "have and hold dear." Besides, who do you think issued your social security number in the first place? Of course they "have our social security numbers someplace"...they gave us the damned things!!! Like I said, the government can find out whatever the hell they want about us at any time, new database or not. It's already out there, and has been for a long time, and if you think otherwise you are living in a dreamworld. Deal with it.

And anyway, how exactly does this database, or any other security measure, impact my freedom of speech? Freedom of religion? Freedom of assembly, etc.? THOSE are the freedoms that I hold dear. And what "indignities" and "invasions of privacy" are you talking about? I haven't seen any! You seem to have a lot of anger about this issue, but I'm not really sure where it's coming from. I suggest you take a deep breath and drink some fluoridated water.  Smile
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:43 am

And anyway, how exactly does this database, or any other security measure, impact my freedom of speech? Freedom of religion? Freedom of assembly, etc.? THOSE are the freedoms that I hold dear.

And so do I. And so do most Americans, there's no doubt about that. Maybe THESE measures don't threaten those, but once you open a Pandora's Box of starting to strip away freedom, and invade further on the privacy of individuals, it's almost impossible to close that box and seal it shut. My fear is that this is just the beginning; that other, more draconian measures are down the road, all in the interest of "safety" (or the illusion thereof), or of "national security." That's where my fear lies.

When you see the tip of an iceberg, you don't know how far that iceberg goes, do you? Same with this stuff: how far are we-or I should say, are you-willing to go? Maybe this won't impact you, but how about the poor soul who simply has the wrong name, who could ended up in detention or worse, simply becuase TSA screws up? That impacts us all, eventually. It should be unacceptable to any American who believes in freedom. And, as I said, how far do we dare go in the defense of "national security" or in the illusion of utter, complete safety from another attack? That's what we should be asking.

And what "indignities" and "invasions of privacy" are you talking about?

To quote you in Reply #10 on this thread:

"Of course there will be some false alarms, and some people will be wrongly inconvenienced, but I know I'd rather be strip-searched, credit-checked and interrogated every time I fly than see another person die in an airline-related act of terrorism."

Those type of indignities that you might be willing to go through, but which I am not.

Again, if you're willing to turn this country into another Soviet Union, simply becuase you're afraid, and want to feel safe, then I think we have a different idea of where we want the U.S. to be in the future.
 
ahlfors
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 1:44 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:56 am

I want to see the mess this creates when some unlucky european gets labeled red and can't leave the US because of it... or even worse when some unlucky american gets labeled red and can't return to the US. Do I smell immigration violations that are not even the fault of the passenger. I mean how are you supposed to fly back home if you mistakenly get labeled red while away from home??? Especially a problem as a red labeling can't be repealed.
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:06 am

If you can't see the difference between airport security--even if it did include strip searches and interrogation, which it currently does not and probably never will--and the system that was in place in Soviet Union, then it's pointless to keep arguing. I think I'll just stick to the "Northwest DC-9 Replacement" and "Best Looking F/As" threads...  Smile
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:09 am

Fine. FoxBravo. If you can't see that this could well be the tip of the iceberg, go hide in those pointless threads, and bury your head in the sand. If you wanted to be treated like a criminal every time you want to fly, then I've made my point. And it won't make you one damned bit safer, which is the kicker.

I'm telling you right now, this government is opening up a box of crap that it won't be able to close, and the stuff that could well be coming down the road will make this look petty in comparison.

[Edited 2004-01-14 17:11:30]
 
FMAL
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:16 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:11 am

The freedom of speech is not threatened? So what happened to Susan Sarandon, Martin Sheen, Tim Robbins, or many other who spoke out against the War on Iraq and against the administration and were dubbed "unpatriotic"? There can be limits to your freedom of speech without a law to specify it. This is an example.

Under the umbrella of "patriotism", almost everyone who spoke out against the war was named "unpatriotic" by the right wingers and suffered consequences. Hey, Martin Sheen played the president, and he was fired. Wasn't CBS about to air a series on the life and government of Ronald Reagan? What happened there? Who spoke out against that and eventually stopped it from being aired on a major network?

News flash: you're freedom of speech is, as of now, is limited. Many will deem you "unpatriotic" because you spoke out against a war that claimed (and still is) hundreds of American lives and for what? Terrorism? No, for oil, for personal vendetta, for the military contractors, etc. That's how they shut you up. No law is needed. Just live with the fear that if you go against the mainstream, you are unpatriotic, and therefore dangerous, and under the Patriot Act, you can end up in jail.

That's my opinion.

Regards

FMAL
 
Dasheighty
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 1:54 pm

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:24 am

Whatch what happenes if a computer hacker gets in there
 
santosdumont
Posts: 1157
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:22 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:28 am

The best US defense against terrorism is, sad to say, to treat each and every incoming passenger (foreign and domestic) as a potential threat.

Last year, I was interrogated at TLV for 90 minutes. The security agents went through the entire contents of all my luggage and even asked about the overseas telephone numbers I dialed from my hotel.

Was it a pain in the ass? Damn right!! But look at Israel's air safety record...

The Israeli agents did display a lot of class. When they saw that the questioning was going to take a while, one of them was cool enough to take care of my check-in.

I fear that many US Customs, Immigration and TSA officials have confused "getting tough on terrorism" with "having a license to be an a-hole." These are two entirely different issues.
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2530
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:37 am

Hey FMAL, I know all the "free" US citizens wont like your statements but in a country where you get bombarded with patriotic BS 24/7 and get tought to obey your leader regardless of their (illegal) actions (A small shout out to all dictatorships of the world!) but I have to agree with you.
It's not about terrorists. It's about control, power and MONEY!

I hope that the people in the US will wake up soon and change their country back to the great place it was prior to GWB's election!
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
cytz_pilot
Posts: 389
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 1999 3:34 pm

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:42 am

Jhooper, good call...I'd like to restate the point...

From 1999 to 2001 (in the United States)
2,926 died from terrorism
29,573 died from gun violence
43,987 died from motor vehicle accidents


In your stats, 76,486 people were killed by those 3 major problems in 2 years. 73,560 will fade into the past, become numbers in a book, unnoticed by all but their families and friends. The remaining 2,926 of those victims were important enough to warrant spending billions upon billions of dollars, perpetual war, near-demonization within the international community, and the near meltdown of the country's economy to remedy the problem. (And unfortunately, most people will say that even with all these actions, the problem IS NOT remedied).

I think it's a really sad situation and I am really sorry for those Americans who feel wronged by the injustices of late and the direction thier country is going, who feel small and helpless, tired and frustrated. My Fiance, a native of California, is one of them. For those people, it would do them more harm than good to make their voices heard despite what is preached daily about free speech and free democracy.

I say rest in peace to every single human being who has had their lives cut short...to those friends and family, we love you and will not forget you.

 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:48 am

Those are excellent observations, Santosdumont, both about El Al's very effective system and about officials in the U.S. As to the first part, the U.S. is just starting to deal with an issue that El Al has many years of experience with. We can and should learn from them.

As to the second part, fortunately, from my experience, the professionalism and courtesy of TSA, Customs, and Immigration personnel has increased immensely since 9/11. On my last few trips, the TSA agents have been downright friendly. It really does make a difference. Unfortunately, there are still some "bad apples" out there who are surly, unpleasant, rude, and generally give the whole system a bad name.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
FMAL
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:16 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:56 am

Ushermittwoch,

I agree with you 100%. I have family in the US and I visit the country all the time. Next week will be my first time with the new "US-VISIT" program in place. I love the US, but prior to GWB. What happened there is that the hawks seized the opportunity 9/11 gave them and moved forward with programs that are extremely right wing. So I agree, its about control, power and like everything else in the world, Money.

Maybe they should have former East Germans tell them how great it was to have a government that knew everything about you, what they can do with the information they have. That might help them wake up.

And the claim that the government has no inclination to do anything with the information is, in my opinion, wrong. As Alpha1 said, if they don't want to do anything with it, why would they push for such a database? Its naive at best.

These are the kind of things you would find in a dictatorship. East Germany, USSR, Cuba, Iraq, Brazil (1960s and 70s), Chile (under Pinochet), etc. Is that what America is about? Hey, they backed dictatorships in the past (Baptista in Cuba, Saddam in Iraq, The military regime in Brazil, Pinochet just went forward in Chile after the "OK" from Kissinger, Nicaragua, El Salvador, the list is endless) but I never heard of them trying it at home.

From what I read, most Americans here are against these measures. That is great! Again, we can only post opinions here, but I feel relieved. Isn't this the age of Globalization? And the leader is isolating itself. I don't think that's right. It turned on the citizens of the world (except Europe), now they want to turn to their own people. I just think that's unheard of. The greatest pride of the US has always been its freedom. How long will this freedom last?

Regards

FMAL

 
santosdumont
Posts: 1157
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:22 am

RE: U.S. Pushes Forward On Passenger Risk Database

Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:57 am

FoxBravo--

Thanks for the positive Customs/TSA reviews! Helps restore my faith.
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica

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