rutankrd
Posts: 2594
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 12:24 am

When a say One World obviously BA and BAcx springs to mind.
With BAcx there is an extensive European and regional network out of Manchester but why only BA1502 to JFK on the long haul side ?
Several US Middle East and Asian airlines seem to be successful or at least cover operating costs sufficently to continue operations from MAN.
Why is it that the two major losses on the long haul in recent years are Qantas and Cathay (One World)?
Cathay especially as the service was supposedly suspended during the strikes 18 months ago but never resumed.
However there are several freight flights the Hong Kong still operated by them and by Dragonair plus a Taiwan service with China airlines several times a week.
Manchester has a very large Chinese population and one of the top China town districts outside China itself so there MUST be a ready source of people ready for restarting that direct passenger service.
Similarly there is a healthy number of people traveling to Australia from the North West.
Qantas operated throughout the 80s and into 90s building up to a daily service to Sydney.
A substantial amount of the daily Emirates and Singapore up lift from Manchester WILL end up in Australia or Hong Kong so demand remains!
So why no services with these airlines who seemed to be successful upto the point of joining Oneworld ?
BA me thinks put undue pressure on them to protect there dominance and at least get some revenue by forcing passengers onto the shuttle down the Heathrow.
Not so great for the paying passenger even in this code share age as Qantas and Cathay passengers are then forced to navigate the terminal maze at that world class gateway (not) that is Heathrow.
Even BA passenger need to transfer from T1 to T4.
Interestingly Qantas also put there code on BA flights to CDG and Frankfurt do they KNOW that Heathrow is just not suited to transfer?
So is One world good for the consumer well ?
As an aside shouldn't Iberia and Aer Lingus and soon Swiss join other One World operators
AA, AY, and BA with its various code shares in T3 ?
 
trident2e
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:38 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 2:55 am

It's nothing more than BA protecting its revenues from LHR. BA has never been a supporter of regional long-haul routes and never will. Qantas certainly withdrew from MAN because of pressure from BA following their purchase of a stake in QF - BA preferring to route pax through LHR and FRA. To be fair though QF adopted a crazy practice of operating the MAN sector as an extenson of one of the LHR services and this very short flight was crewed by an entirely new crew - imagine the cost of having an extra crew in London to operate it!
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2594
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 3:26 am

Agreed Trident2e,
I remember that the final few months of QF actually utilized a BA B732 flying QF9/2 from T2 at Man to T4 Heathrow !
When QF9/2 was extended from LHR to MAN with the increase to daily operations I think it was also to cut down on expensive parking charges for all day at LHR but this no longer seems to matter as the machines now spend the long days sitting at the BA maintenance yards (parking courtesy of fellow BA no doubt)
Much the same for the Cathay machines but on the BMI ramp (think they are handling agent at LHR) rather than BA strange this one world alliance isn't it ?
You would think that ground handling would be done by alliance partner wouldn't you ?
Back at Manchester are Aer Lingus and Iberia being handled by Serviceair and that's why they are in T1 ?
When the new AA Boston flight starts will there be enough gates at the BA end of T3 for this AA54, BA1502 plus the Finnair and all those RJs/EMBs in the morning ?
By the way am a Mancunian in exile in the South but with a long interest in development back up north.
 
David_itl
Posts: 5961
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:10 am


When the new AA Boston flight starts will there be enough gates at the BA end of T3 for this AA54, BA1502 plus the Finnair and all those RJs/EMBs in the morning

The answer is no and hasn't been for a long time - it's very common to have the last BA inbound flights of the day being sent to the Southbay between T1 and T3, and the Western Apron. I believe T3 has just got the 2 widebodied stands.

David
 
Demoose
Posts: 1891
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2001 8:06 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:18 am

Any idea when we'll see work begin the proposed extension to the T3 international pier? Aswell as T2's pier extension. Also David, do you know what happened with G-BNWH on friday night's BA JFK-MAN flight - diverted back to JFK with hydraulic problems despite being a good 2 hours into the flight.
Take a ride...fly across the sky
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2594
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:24 am

These 2 stands will be at the far eastern end then?
How long is The AA B752 due on the ground and is there a good chance that it will be moved to remote to allow continued stand usage or is it more likely they'll shift good ol' G-BNW- ?
If they move it to remote what chances of photography from T1 multiple carpark or I this no go these days with security?
Also as my last post are Iberia and Aer Lingus inT1 because of handling agent or simply lack of space in T3 ?
Given the fact that Eire has long been considered effectively domestic surely they could use stands on the original section of T3 ?
 
ba757
Posts: 2707
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:30 am

Demoose,
A thread here on BA1502 return to JFK:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1353648

Adam
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2594
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:32 am

Regarding T2 extensions what ever happened to the proposed island pier then ?
Is it still being considered or are we to see that very continental procedure of busing to the remotes used ?
 
ba757
Posts: 2707
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:35 am

I heard a while back they were planning to build a whole new terminal up by the remotes - but where the hell would they put it? Surely there is not enough room. Would be cool though.

Adam
 
trident2e
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:38 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:28 am

I worked at MAN at the time T2 was opened. I'm pretty sure that much of the prep work for the T2 satellite pier was done at the time the main terminal was being built but the problem with T2 for many years, and to some extent still true today, is that it has always been under utilised. Manchester was always good at forecasting huge increases in demand that never actually materialised.
 
David_itl
Posts: 5961
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:31 am


Don't know what the new extensions are going to be - they might have revamped some of the ideas, though T2 and T3 are only operating around half planned capacity.

I'm sure it's handling issues which have stopped Iberia and Aer Lingus from using T3 - another airline that's moved out from T3 is Emirates but I've a feeling that was for alternative issues (not least of which being another change of terrminal in the pipeline should A380s be used).

I have been slightly surprised that BA haven't operated one of the LHR-JFK services via MAN whilst the 767 is resident in JFK (and it looks like it may be coming back today) - all they appear to have done is use 767s on some shuttle services and today inserted an extra shuttle service using a 747 which was going to CWL on maintenance.

David
 
Ryanair737
Posts: 1364
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:14 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:37 am

David, do you know the registration of the BA 747-400 that came to MAN today?

Thanks
Ryanair737
LAST FLIGHTS= Ryanair LPL-BGY-LPL - EI-DPS/DWV - MAY 08 // NEXT FLIGHTS= TBC
 
David_itl
Posts: 5961
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:44 am


It was G-BNLH (and it looked quite nice as it departed overhead Didsbury).

David
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2594
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:46 am

G-BNLH according to the Yahoo Manchester Movements site on BA1390 also B767 G-BZHB on an earlier shuttle flight.
Both carrying passengers off the returned Friday JFK flight operated by G-BNWH
 
Ryanair737
Posts: 1364
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:14 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:50 am

Thanks for that guys! So the 747 flight was an extra shuttle service put on by BA? Did G-BNLH leave empty for CWL?

Thanks
Ryanair737
LAST FLIGHTS= Ryanair LPL-BGY-LPL - EI-DPS/DWV - MAY 08 // NEXT FLIGHTS= TBC
 
David_itl
Posts: 5961
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 6:02 am


Judging by it's height over me when compared to the European 747 going to Sanford, I would say yes!

David
 
widebodiedlee
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:45 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 7:48 am

The AA BOS B757 is planned to park on stand 53, 3 stands in from the end of T3. This Summer will see a re-arrangement of the end stand, stand 56 to allow 3 commuter aircraft to park. In addition the passing bay at the threshold of 24R will be adapted to allow parking of 5 more commuter aircraft. BA CityExpress will be the primary users.

For information- On the International side of T3, Stand 55 is capable of taking a B747-400 as is Stand 44, both with adjacent gates restrictions. Stand 54, and 49 can take B767s and stand 53 and 48 can take B757s. Also, we have advanced plans that will provide stands on ALL 3 Terminals for the A380.

Lee
Airport Planning, Manchester Airport
All opinions stated above are my own, not my Companys'
 
User avatar
FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:18 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 7:49 am

I travelled BA/QF to SYD a few years ago via FRA. There were a lot of people on the BA flight to Frankfurt who then joined the QF flight. I'd imagine that the feed from the BA flights is a way of maximising capacity. How full were the CX flights MAN-AMS/MAN-ZRH/MAN-CDG when they operated anyway?

BA as yet does not codeshare on IB's MAN-BCN route. Following EU approval for BA/IB/GT to deepen codeshare on Anglo-Spanish routes that will likely change. Maybe BAcx will take over the route from the current IB A320 - WW must be taking some chunk of the business for this flight?

As for EI not being in T3 isn't this partly to do with security? Channel island flights depart from T1 gates for BA despite the fact that check-in is in T3. I don't know all the details but signage in T1/T3 is very clear that Channel island and Eire flights depart from T1.

Finally, BA did try expanding MAN L/H flights around '96 with a five times weekly MAN-LAX service (BA276/277) operated with a 763. It also used to route LGW-MAN-ISB with a 742 for several years. Now this flight is LHR-ISB with a 772 I wonder whether this is due to PK's frequencies? I recall flying SN MAN-BRU a couple of years back from T2 and there being 4 PK 747s present routing to US/Pakistan!

An Airliner World article recently on MAN showed proposed T2 extension to be built in next few years thus making the terminal symmetrical in appearance when seen in plan view.

With AA launching BOS-MAN (albeit on a 757) and suggestions on here that MIA-MAN will follow, maybe an expansion of L/H will occur. Be nice to see QF operating MAN-SIN-SYD and CX MAN-AMS-HKG again but probably unlikely for several years.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2594
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:20 am

Lee thanks for your valued input regarding parking changes for T3 international stands.
So no remote parking for the AA B752 pitty !
Flycaledonian yes BA did operate the Islamabad route of course until quite recently.
Over the years I know BA have had occasion to operate a variety of long haul at differing times
Montreal / Toronto /Hong Kong/Barbados/Delhi/Bangkok/Los Angeles I can think off right now.
BOAC days even saw a multi point service with a VC10 to JFK then onto the Caribbean finishing in Georgetown.
Someone out there may remember to full route.
As for your comment about CX I still think they would like to return but are probably being hampered by BA.
QF I have to concede are unlikely to ever return whilst BA own a quarter stake
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2594
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Sun Jan 18, 2004 9:35 am

Have now started a seperate thread as I believe that Stanstead may have taken third place in 2003 is this correct as i haven't actually seen the numbers for Manchester yet.
 
rutankrd
Posts: 2594
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:16 am

Its interesting and certainly coincidence that today One of the One World carriers has stated its intention to return.
Its is Cathay Pacific who plan to route Hong Kong-Moscow-Manchester initially 2 times a week but not before 2005 !
Seems that demand is acknowledged and whilst not to pre-suspended frequencies once started they will no doubt build up again.
As I said those that said it would unlikely CX would return really don't realize how big this market is with the very large Chinese populations in the
North West (both Manchester and Liverpool)
Only California can be said to compare outside Asia itself !
Only problem now is even through a One World carrier Cathey may well have opened the door to the usual BA tactics.
Don't be surprised if BA now re-instate HK in the autumn of this year as a spoiler only to suspend it again when they push CX off.
 
David_itl
Posts: 5961
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: One World At Manchester

Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:40 am

These are the CAA's figures for MAN-HKG - they don't separate out those who were flying through to HKG from those who got off at intermediate point(s)


year = passengers

1986 = 011889
1987 = 009959
1988 = 012244
1989 = 013535 (this was the year CX started)
1990 = 026433
1991 = 026810 (this was the year BA pulled out or was it 1990)
1992 = 036862
1993 = 068089
1994 = 145388
1995 = 112515
1996 = 110197
1997 = 098769
1998 = 092037
1999 = 078420
2000 = 087394
2001 = 039073


The BA/CX codeshare on the LHR shuttle kicked in around Spring 2000; if only they had codeshared this route instead!

David

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