KaiGywer
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Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:27 am

UA really brought some planes in this morning. We had 3 737s and 1 A319 on the ground at the same time. Is this usual for a Sunday morning? (Can tell I usually do night shifts)  Sleepy
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
UNITED777300
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:54 am

I checked the Star Alliance timetable and UA has UA1078 to DEN @ 9:08am and UA1230 to ORD @ 9:00am and UA496 to ORD @ 10:00am. Hope this helps!
/// U N I T E D: It's Time to Fly.
 
Continental
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:52 am

Yes it is usual. I've been seeing a lot of United at MSP recently. I've also been seeing a TON of Continental, they are always now at the C gates, because their F gates are always full!


co
 
Guest

RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:56 am

Saw similar situation way back in Feb of last year...
 
CALMSP
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:21 pm

actually the only reason you may see some of our planes at the C concouse is b/c they sit overnight or if they are on a mechanical. we park them over there b/c we dont have enough ramp space on the E concourse. Also you usually can spot some of our 737's parked at the Exec pad on the other side of 12L.
 
Continental
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:14 am

Yeah I meant to say E concourse. That's odd, because almost all the time I see a CO 737 and an ERJX over at the C gates, and they come in with passengers, and then leave with more....

co
 
KaiGywer
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:37 am

The C-gates seem to be a popular spot for RON aircraft. Last night, There was a UA 737, DL MD80 and a CO 737 all put to rest at various C-gates
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
CALMSP
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:42 am

thats b/c NW refuses to open up gates for other airlines, even though they really dont need them, in fact we are losing a gate b/c UAL is taking it over b/c MAC is doing work on one of their gates, look at DL here in MSP they run like 20 flightsout of two gates,
 
COIAH99
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:55 am

When I worked in MSP it was like pulling teeth to find a gate from NW.
MAC doesn't seem to help either. I remeber a few summers ago we had 6 overnighters (Sat) and only 2 gates as well. Can't blame it all on NW. I think CO could have figured that one out. 2 gates 6 a/c?
Work Hard Fly Right
 
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:39 am

The tone of this thread is rather interesting; it gives the impression that UA, CO and other airlines are/are interested in pumping up their schedules at MSP but are limited in options b/c NW refuses to give up gates. This is absolutely not true.

On peak days, CO operates:
(4) flights to CLE - all ERJ
(6) flights to EWR - includes 4 ERJ
(5) flights to IAH

This is an AVERAGE CO operation, and a DECREASE in mainline flying vs. previous years. CO is NOT expanding at MSP.

UA operates:
(14) flights to ORD
(4) flights to DEN

This is a DECREASE in flying vs. previous years. I question if somebody could've saw "like 7 UA flights" on the ground at once. UA doesn't even serve IAD from MSP!

- - -

As for 'lots of aircraft RON,' this is true of most airports. For example, at DTW, CO has as many as five-six aircraft RON. They have three gates (and a regional gate that's rarely used) -- at least one of those gates sit UNUSED most of the day.

- - -

Let's put these misconceptions to rest.
 
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mariner
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:54 am

IndustrialPate:

UAL is about to start MSP/IAD:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040115/cgth067_1.html

Perhaps because of NWAC moving into LAX/DEN?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
wingnutmn
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:04 am

Is UAL trying to get another gate in MSP for the IAD run, or are they just going to work it into their 3 gates they already have? Also, with the new partnership with Delta and the current partnership with CO, could that be why they allow Delta and CO to park and deplane on the C concourse? The last few times I've flown in/out of MSP, I've CO and Delta planes on the C concourse. I really never saw them do that as of a couple years ago.
WingnutMN
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COIAH99
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:03 am

With all due respect Industrialpate, I think what everyone was trying to say (at least some of the threads) is that it is very difficult in MSP to find gate space. Whether it's for future expansion or just to find something to stick an overnight a/c. NW can be pretty stubborn in "renting" out a gate for a few hours or overnight.
I do agree with you on the downsizing of smaller a/c in that market, especially CO. Which in turn can make things a little easier. You might not realize that CO also has the F9 contract as well. That ads, last time I looked 3 flights per day and another RON. We of course are responsible for finding gate space for them as well. All I meant is UA,DL and CO would love to have just one more gate. So as I said earlier NW is reluctant to give up any space whether that gate is being used or not. Thanks.
Work Hard Fly Right
 
CALMSP
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:51 am

very well put, atleast someone realizes what I am saying. How are we suppose to run 22 flights a day out of 2 gates? During the summer we are upping an RJ flt to a 733 to EWR, including adding another one, totalling 7 to EWR. Also adding the additional flight to IAH as well. We are also picking up 3 more F9 flights, including another RON. F9 is trying to get their own gate, but that would require NW to give one up, and of course they wouldn't jump to that since F9 is announcing service to LAX, all I'm saying is that if NW would better control their gate usage it would be feasable. When strolling through the concourses you can often see on the board at a gate, information for the next flight and its 5 hours from now. Something could be done to better use the gate flow than the way they do now.
and yes, we do store some planes on the c-concourse overnight, very rarely will you deplane over there, we do deplane some overnights on the f-concourse, depending on the routing of the aircrafts that we have
 
Guest

RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:57 pm

I think what everyone was trying to say (at least some of the threads) is that it is very difficult in MSP to find gate space.

It's difficult at virtually any major airport to find additional gate space. And aircraft RON is irreverent -- it's cheaper to rent remote parking space than it is to lease additional gates that you don't need (for the purpose other than to park an aircraft at it). For example, at DTW HP operates a total of five daily departures but overnights three aircraft (and it's been that way for a few years). After CO eliminated its agreement with HP, the latter sought to lease a single gate. (However, the opening of the new terminal and CO's move to it meant there was quite a bit of excess gates at DTW... thus HP inherited CO's three gates for cheap, but that's irreverent to my point -- they only wanted one, even though three aircraft RON). CO, any many other airlines, overnights more aircraft than it has gates at many airports throughout its system.

To answer the original poster, it's not hard to have four aircraft on the ground at the same time for an airline that serves only two destinations from MSP -- not only RON, but it's possible for some aircraft to depart a few minutes early and others to arrive a few minutes early so that you have two departures on the ground and two arrivals on the ground at the same time.

And to answer another poster, UA's operation at MSP is very doable with three gates, even with the three extra IAD flights.
 
CALMSP
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:10 pm

yah but you have to realize they also wrk 3 AC flts
 
Guest

RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:29 pm

yah but you have to realize they also wrk 3 AC flts

It doesn't matter -- it's still doable with three gates. The ORD service is hourly and can be operated with a single gate. That gives them two gates for ten flights -- five flights/day is more-than-doable...
 
CALMSP
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:37 pm

obviously you dont work on the ramp or the gate, you dont realize other things that come up, such as a mechanical or a slight delay, with that many flights 4 gates is necessary to have easy access for all planes, maybe if you would actually come out and see many UA aircraft or DL aircraft sitting on the tarmac waiting for a gate to open up you would realize that more gate space is necessary.
 
Guest

RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:00 pm

CALMSP,
At DTW, both UA and DL have aircraft sitting on the tarmac waiting for a gate to open up -- more gate space is available, but neither airline is interested. Why? Because it's cheaper to have aircraft sit & wait (or overnight in a remote parking space) than it is to lease additional gates that you really don't need.

As for UA, the IAD/YYZ flights are timed so that they can operate from a single gate, giving UA two gates for 18 flights -- 14 of which operate hourly. That's plenty of gate space... there will be an empty gate several times throughout the day. And if something goes wrong, there is no shortage of hard stands and buses...

Airlines don't lease gates they don't need.
 
CALMSP
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:38 am

now where are they going to hard stand planes in MSP, there is no where, and they dont have buses to bus people to the terminals. no one wants to have a plane sit out there, its not a good business strategy to always day inand day out sit on the tarmac, in MSP, if they sit out there to long there are going to be many misconnects on NW. We operate three gates out of here, but we dont lease the third one, we rent it three times a day from NW, but we certainly need that and are trying to pick up another, b/c its getting to the point where we cant operate all these flights out of two gates.
 
COIAH99
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:44 am

CalMsp...
You might be wondering why I'm responding to this thread. I used to work in MSP. Transfered to IAH awhile back just wondering who you are. I think I have an idea but not sure. You can contact me if you like...I'd rather not post names here. Talk to you later.
I guess that's why I totally understand where you are coming from. It's always been a problem up there getting gate space.
Work Hard Fly Right
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:57 am

So when do you think anyone will start using the gates over at the Humphrey Terminal? Plenty of room over there......  Big grin
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
COIAH99
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:03 am

Your right Mikey711MN but I think the only question is how to get connecting pax over to the main terminal or vica versa?
Work Hard Fly Right
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:11 am

The train.

To my understanding, connecting between the two terminals will be allowed for free when the tunnel is completed and service begins at the end of the year.

Humphrey Station:



Lindbergh Station:
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
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mariner
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:12 am

I don't know MSP.

How far is the Humphrey Terminal from the Lindbergh?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:18 am

I don't remember the exact number.

See the diagram.
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
CALMSP
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:18 am

its a long ways by car, plus you will have to go back through security, which is a pain in the a&&. If people were to go over there, then hwere do you put the charters, such as Omni, Trans Global, SunCountry, Apple, its hard to say, NW just needs better gate useage.
 
COIAH99
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:20 am

I would guess roughly 1 mile give or take. I also didn't realize they were building a train to connect the two terminals. That might help out if those gates at HHH are availabe.
Work Hard Fly Right
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:26 am

It's actually part of the new Twin Cities' light-rail system, which the MAC (airport commission) is spending huge money on (more than the state itself, IIRC) due to the tunnel, so they expect to get a lot of use from it.

I can see non-SkyTeam/NW/CO airlines operating very successfully in these gates once this is all up and running.
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
TWFirst
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:33 am

>>And aircraft RON is irreverent -- it's cheaper to rent remote parking space than it is to lease additional gates that you don't need (for the purpose other than to park an aircraft at it).<<



How dare RON be irreverent??? RON definitely needs to start exhibiting some reverence!! If RON doesn't start showing due respect and reverence towards this subject, he risks becoming irrelevant, which is completely different than being irreverent...


 Big grin


Don't they teach any English courses in college anymore??
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
CALMSP
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:35 am

I guess they dont in Mo-town schools.
 
KaiGywer
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:05 am

There already is a free shuttle bus between Lindbergh and Humphrey, but like other said, it's about a five-six minute bus ride, and you have to go back through security. Not to mention driving a tug at 15 mph to transfer bags between the terminals  Big grin
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:00 am

Understood about the distance to/from the terminals, but that just means that Northwest nor their alliance partners would be terribly interested in moving to the Humphrey.

But in this example, if UA moved their afore mentioned three--assuming they preferred to have dedicated facilities there--I don't see exactly how this is a big deal. This arrangement will inconvenience the handful of poor souls who connected to a different airline in MSP--a rarity, to put it lightly!--by making them leave the secure area, claim their bags, transfer terminals, and then recheck in. On the other hand, the airlines who moved would have all the gate space and flexibility they'd ever need to operate what would fundamentally be O&D operations, i.e. no cross-terminal transferring.
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
Guest

RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:33 pm

CALMSP,
You don't seem to get it. CO/UA may operate a tight operation with little room at MSP, but it's certainly feasible (and both airlines have handled more flights in the past, even with the above additions included). It costs A LOT of money to lease additional gates... in your example, an arriving flight may have to wait a few minutes for the departing aircraft to exit the gate -- well, guess what? You'd have to put that aircraft at an extra gate and have extra employees to handle it... in the end, you're spending a lot of money. The bottom line is that it's cheaper for CO/UA/etc. to pay for flight irregularities than it is to lease additional gates / hire more employees.

- - -

TWFirst,
I hope that's an attempt at humor as opposed an attempt to belittle me. We all make typos...
 
Continental
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:09 pm

NWA is such a b**** at MSP. I've always seen UA and DL sitting there for many minutes waiting for another aircraft to leave so they can get a parking space. I saw an America West 737 sit there for 45 minutes, waiting for the 757 to backout.

co
 
Guest

RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:31 pm

Again, I repeat myself...

Continental,
How is this NW's fault? UA, DL, HP, etc. do not anticipate these ground hold times in their scheduling -- they're a result of aircraft arriving early and/or departing late. Should the HP 737 (doesn't HP use multiple gates shared with NW, anyway?) have pulled into an empty gate, HP wouldn't have had sufficient employees to "meet" it anyway... those passengers would've sat on the plane for 45-minutes one way or another.
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:45 pm

From the sounds of things, NW is merely making an issue with gate utilization than anything else...if the others can't make in-roads enough to better use what they have, there are options (or at least more potentially lucrative ones coming). IIRC, UA dropped from 4 to 3 gates in Lindbergh a number of years ago because the service they claimed would justify it never came...this is from reasonably distant memory of a Star Tribune article, and I can not provide an exact source. Regardless, they've now just announced IAD-MSP service, so there must be some play in their schedules.

This seems to be far different than the DEN Concourse A situation where UA is flat out not using their gates (or doing so at the bare minimum so the airport can't revoke them) to keep Frontier at bay. NW stays quite busy at MSP and they pay for it, so I don't see it so much as them being a b**** as much as them simply using what they paid for. All of this said, of course, assuming that they had the manpower to staff those facilities (and if they contracted that out to, say, Northwest, I'm sure the plane would stay parked at those gates until the contract helped finished their obligations with the payer of their checks first).

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
Continental
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:51 am

Never really said it was NWAs fault.... They left no options for the other airlines to chose another gate, and if they had another gate, then they'd hire more employees. There's not enough space at MSP, what's gonna happen in the long run???

co
 
TWFirst
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:18 am

I.P.: A typo is when one transposes letters or leaves one out. Some might interpret the completely incorrect usage and understanding of a common adjective as an indication of intelligence and/or credibility, and certainly you do not want that to happen.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
Guest

RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:52 pm

Continental,
Somebody's thinking in la-la land... Let's be realistic. First off, HP shares two gates with NW and it appears as though - at least status quo - they're OK with this arrangement. But let's say HP had a single gate of its own. Why would they need two gates for five daily flights? That second gate would have a high pricetag, considering there's demand for gates at MSP. On top of that, there's not a chance in hell they'd add extra employees they didn't feel a need for. And if HP did indeed have two gates of its own at MSP, there's little doubt in my mind that they would've sold one of them off by now -- even to NW!

TWFirst,
It was a typo - as with many people, when I participate on FT I'm mult-tasking; e.g. I'll be writing two or more things at once... so while I know which word I wanted to put -- and even "saw" it when I quickly proofread" -- it didn't come to be. Nonetheless, if you think it removes credibility from my postings and makes me seem less intelligent, then that's your prerogative. Unlike 99% of the users on here, I know the difference between "loose" and "lose" - that's gotta be worth something... cheers...
 
ORDnDFW777
Posts: 164
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RE: Lots Of United At MSP This Morning

Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:55 pm

Hate to say this, but given the winter weather in MSP, maybe people want to get the h--- out of there!

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