amirs
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Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:06 am

It would seem, that if AF ordered 772 and 773, they are saying that the 777's are better than there country's manufactured 340's.
I would never have excpect an airline such as AF, that is so involved in its country's politics to order a a/c from a competitor manufacture. ESPECIALLY USA!
I GUESS BOEING RULES  Smile
 
Delta717
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:08 am

My guess is they're going to start to phase out their older 744s and 340s.
 
flyboyaz
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:08 am

It was a way to pass a lazy afternoon?? I don't know really, good question.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
GDB
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:17 am

Certainly gives the lie to the idea that Airbus have a captive market in the EU.
(Oh, and Airbus is a consortium, including but not exclusively, France).
 
GDB
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:26 am

This extremely good site might help, click on 'Air France' and a detailed article on the AF 777 is part of an extensive AF fleet overview.
http://www.airtransportbiz.com/
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:28 am

Air France became a B777 cutomer originally when they transferred unwanted B767-300 and B747-400 orders to the B777 programme. This avoided cancellation penalties, and of course Air France liked the economics of the twin. Of particular interest to AF was the B777-200's ability to carry the same number of economy passengers as the A340-300, but with larger First and Business class cabins...

Of course since then the type has become a major part of the Air France fleet, and in the future will be their main long-haul aircraft type.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
FlySSC
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:37 am

Air France is just like any another airline : Air France buys the best a/c on the market for its network and operations. Read me well : I don't say the B777 are better than the A340. B777 are better FOR AIR FRANCE than he A340.
France being part of Airbus Consortium doesn't oblige AF to buy only Airbus !

AF has always been a very faithful Boeing customer, for many many years. When AF bought the A340 in the early 90's, they didn't have the choice : they had to renew rapidly and old fleet (long-haul a/c with AF were at that time only the B747-100, 200, 200Combi and A300B4 ) and the A340 was the brand new a/c on the market, and AF was already operating the A320 since 1988. The B772 is an excellent plane for AF that gives very good results (reliable, easy & cheap maintenance, excellent PAX & Crews feedback) so AF trusts Boeing for its new B773ER.
 
dal777ams
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:38 am

Better airplane!........
 
Danny
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:43 am

They bought it because they had orders for 767 and 747 that were transferred for 777 as Crosswind said. Since this is very good aircraft the will use it for many more years which doesn't mean that they will not fly on A330 and A340.
 
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Richard28
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:56 am

To operate 744's, A330's, A343's, 772's and now 773's and soon A380's seems mad!

They need some decent accountants to sell the benefits of fleet harmonisation damn sharpish!!

(perhaps this is a legacy of state ownership and politics dictating fleet plans??)
 
fflood
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:02 am

In a word: POLITICS!
LINE UP AND WAIT
 
ual747den
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:06 am

Just because they are a France airline doesn't mean they are stupid. Of course they know that the 777 is a better product, just like all Boeing's!
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
GDB
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:06 am

If it was politics they'd have an all Airbus fleet.
Still, don't let cliches get in the way of facts, (what is it with a part of the US population that has a sudden drop in common sense and reasoning ability, when the word 'France' is mentioned?)
 
FlySSC
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:09 am

Richard28, the A380 is not yet in the fleet. A332 and A340 is the same aircraft type, just like B772 & B773.

Today, AF is operating 4 types of a/c in its long-haul fleet : B744, A332/343, B742/743 (for just another 2 years) and B772/B773.

and only 2 types in its short/medium haul fleet : A320 family (A318,19,20,21 ) and B737-500 for another 2 years. In 2006 : only one type ! couldn't be less...

Concening the long-haul, it's not different from what the other Majors are operating : LH : B744, A330/A340 (-300 & -600 ), MD11, A300-600, A310-300, A320 family, B733 & B735 etc... same thing with BA, IB (A320 family, MD80's, B757, B743, A340 (-300, -600), A300 & DC10 until last year ! etc...
 
fflood
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:10 am

Politics, clear and simple.
LINE UP AND WAIT
 
N79969
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:11 am

I recall reading that when AF was privatized, (although I think the government still holds some smaller chunk of equity today) the new managers insisted that the government not interfere in its decision making including fleet plans. Air France is now one of Europe's (and the world's) financially successful full-service airlines.

Had the government maintained its level of involvement, I personally doubt that they would operate B777 in any quantity and wonder whether AF could have become the profitable carrier that it is today.

Note: I am not attempting to correlate B777 to profitability and A340 to unprofitability per se.
 
hawaii12
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:19 am

One must not forget that some of the orders for the twin were placed before relations between the two countries went sour.

food for thought
cheers
 
KaiGywer
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:22 am

Asking why AF orders the 777 is the same as asking why NW has 319/320/330 in their fleet. The 320-series is highly popular here, why don't they buy 737s? NW is American, why don't they buy Boeing? It all comes down to which manufacturer gets them a better deal on the better product for what it's gonna be used for at the time. (Man, that was a long sentence)
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
FlySSC
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:28 am

AF never ordered the B767. AF inherited the B767 (and further orders) when they bought and merged UTA in the early 90's. UTA, at that time, had orders for B767 (200 & 300) for its charter subsidiary Aéromaritime, and for A342 & A343 to replace its DC10's.
 
AApilot2b
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:32 am

I read an article in one of my recent airline magazines (I wish I could remember which one, but I am away from home for the time being) that had a feature story on Air France. An interview with the head executives revealed the answer to the 777 question. There were no politics involved. The 777 was simply the best airplane for the routes they wanted to utilize it on and Air France believes it works well a long side their A340s. In fact the only politics involved was a lot of pressure from the French government not to go through with the 777 orders, but to buy Airbus. Fortunately for Boeing, the execs at Air France stuck to their guns and bought what they believed would be the better airplane (inspite of all the flack they received for those orders). Now that's what I like to see; an exec say, "screw your politics, we are in the business of making a profit...."

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solnabo
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:36 am

Then expain to me why Lufthansa & Qantas dont order the 777???
Just because AF ordered them doesnt mean that B-team rules...
Oohh yeah, almost forgot:
They´re going for A380  Laugh out loud

Michael/SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
socalatc
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:44 am

Becasue the 777 is better than the 330's-340's
Plain and simple!
 
amirs
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:45 am

KaiGywer
Sorry, but i dont think there is any room for comparison, between choices NWA make and AF make. The politics are totally different.
To think that a FRENCH partiallly owned carrier, picked an American product over a EUROPEAN product (which i don't need to remind you is manufactured and assembled in FRANCE) is weird.
You dont see LH or IB ordering 777's. They went with Europe.
That just says something about the French (and their warped politics) and obviously about the 777's superiority over 340's (-200, -500, -600 etc) .
 
caravelle
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:49 am

Many US airlines order Airbus, many European order Boeing. It's the way things should be in a fair world.

- caravelle
Trains and boats and planes....
 
Tolosy
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:52 am

Hey, don't start again....

AF is buying 777 because managers are intelligent and have seen that the 773 suits best to AF needs.

It has nothing to see with politics. The fleet chosen by AF based only on Airbus for short haul and Boeing and Airbus for long haul allows flexibilty and benefits.

AF is one of the most profitable airline in Europe today.

Airlines buying airplanes for political reason in such a competitive market won't go far.

Airbus and Boeing have reached very high and similar standards, but each airplane suits to very specific need.

Some airlines choose Boeing for politics reason when Airbus would better suit to their needs.


AF buys Boeing, some should be happy  Wink/being sarcastic


Nick



 
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Crosswind
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:52 am

Becasue the 777 is better than the 330's-340's
Plain and simple!


Why then did Air France order the A330-200 to replace their B767 fleet, after operating the B777 for several years?

Air France feel that the B777 is superior to the A340, but nothing they have done idicates they feel the same about the A330. For a start the A330-200 and B777 aren't even in the same size category!

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
donder10
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:54 am

(although I think the government still holds some smaller chunk of equity today)
The French state is still the majority holder,AFAIK although with perpetual plans to reduce its holding to around 20%.

One of the reasons AF's 340-777 mix works OK is because of the 332 and cross-crew commonality on the 330 and 340.AF have a few routes such as Toronto,Ouagadougou and Conakry that regularly see a mix of 330s and 340s.This reduces costs as they don't have to dead head any crews as all are qualified to fly both(the course takes little time)

Which highlights the area Boeing are weak-a 332 competitor which is in the same family as the 777.Hopefully the 7E7 will address this.
Why is it anathema to some on here to say that the 777 is a better overall product than the 340?Of course in same cases the 340 will be a better fit but overall the 777 has outsold the 340.
Likewise,the 764 is better than the 332 on some routes but overall the 332 is a significantly better aircraft.Sales show this.
 
Udo
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:56 am

UAL747DEN and Socalatc,

It's always sad to see that people like you still drop their unqualified comments on that forum...if you only took some time and read more carefully what other, very well informed, people write, then you wouldn't talk pure BS.
But I'm wondering if it's only the time which you don't take...

Btw, my car is better than yours because it's red!!! Happy playing tomorrow with your GI Joe dolls, guys!  Wink/being sarcastic


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
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solnabo
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:00 am

Wonder if the B-team inhere knows that Airbus is a consortsium:
England/Spain/Germany/France and suppliers from a lot of other
countrys?
Why is it that France always is the "Airbus-country"?
Get you´re info correct before you start bashing the A-team, ok?
Maybe its the only US and only Everett that counts, right?
Pathetic!
 Nuts  Nuts
Michael/SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
rjpieces
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777

Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:04 am

I always found the AF 777 order funny  Smile And don't forget they are diehard GE customers.

As for their fleet now, the 777s fly the premium routes and the A340s fly the thinner, lower yielding routes. That is how they coexist with each other. As for the A330, many airlines operate 777/A330 combinations and are happy with it.

I think AF ordering the 777-300ER is a sign of how much they love their 777-200ERs and how well that aircraft does for them.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
donder10
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:04 am

Why is it that France always is the "Airbus-country"?
What are the holding sizes of 4 countries though?
 
donder10
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:06 am

I think AF ordering the 777-300ER is a sign of how much they love their 777-200ERs and how well that aircraft does for them.

Or how much they love GE Big grin?
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:44 am

might be a reason, that they merge with KLM who has a B-fleet? fleet commonality and so on...and still keep some bus for the special occasions, like the 380 would be one of these, or maybe 318s...the rest mainly getting common with KLM?
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
pilotntrng
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777

Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:54 am

OK here we go with some more politics..... I have to totally agree with KaiGywer on this one. AF ordered the 777 because it is an aircraft they can utilize better than an Airbus. Here in the States not only has NW, but US Air, United, Frontier, and others have chosen smaller Airbus models to accomodate thier needs. This is all based on financial descisions with some bias to an Alllied nation. Just throwing in my two cents.

Regards,

PilotNtrng
Booooo Lois, Yaaaa Beer!!!
 
FlySSC
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:56 am

If the B777 are better for AF than the A340, the A332 are incomparably better than the B767 and suits perfectly AF needs in terms of flexibility and range on its west-African network (5 to 7 hours flights) as well as longest flights to south America (CCS) or Far-East (KIX). The B767 is a good but old aircraft type and it suffers no comparison with the excellent A330.
 
N79969
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:57 am

The best answer to this question is on the link provided by GDB. It is worth reading.
 
ual747den
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:02 am

This is one of the most stupid threads of all time! Any airliner can order any plane and if the airlines only ordered planes from their countries we would have some pretty shitty planes out there! Thank god that there is Airbus and Boeing to make competition and make it so that we are always seeing something new and better come out. You people need to grow up of course AF doesn't have to order only Airbus. THAT MAKES COMPETITION AND MAKES THE BUISNESS PROFITABLE!

Geeeeezzzzzzz
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
Leskova
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:15 am

The 773ER can - among other reasons (which may or may not be performance/financial/whatsoever related - but who here really knows???) - be explained by the GE engines: Boeing has them, Airbus (on the A345/346) does not.

As for Airbus being a consortium... might I remind you that the current year is 2004, and that Airbus has been transferred into an integrated company by now? The shareholdings in EADS are split 30.07% for DaimlerChrysler and SOGEADE (Lagardère and French State) each, as well as 5.5% for SEPI (Spanish State Holding). The rest (34.36%) is floated freely.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
AirGAbon
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:18 am

Amirs: you said "That just says something about the French (and their warped politics) and obviously about the 777's superiority over 340's (-200, -500, -600 etc) ."

Do you have more explanations about "French and their warped politics ??"

You know, here in France, the main concern isn't to be against USA or other countries !!!

Peace.
 
emiratesa345
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:27 am

UAL747DEN,

You were singing a different tune just a little while ago. Let me refresh your memory.

"Just because they are a France airline doesn't mean they are stupid. Of course they know that the 777 is a better product, just like all Boeing's!"

EmiratesA345 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
codeshare
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RE: Could Someone Explain To Me Why AF Ordered 777?

Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:35 am

To sum everything all up, before this whole topic goes nuts.

For some routes the 777 is better, and for some the A330/340 is better.
In AF's case they chose to buy the a/c that suited them.

...:::THE END:::...
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?