ORDnDFW777
Topic Author
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:02 am

Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:32 am

Chicago is the 3rd largest city in the US (metro population of 9 million), is a hub airport for the two largest global alliances (Star and OneWorld), will push 1 million aircraft operations this year, but is weak when it comes to international traffic. Only one flight to South America, limited Asian service, and no new foreign flights on the radar.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:33 am

damn. If only MSY could be as weak as ORD in int'l traffic  Yeah sure

*sigh*
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
dia77
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 3:49 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:39 am

Chicago has much better European service than the 2nd largest city in the US (Los Angeles) and comparable Asian service to NYC. I don't think Chicago is lacking at all for a city it's size. How many North American cities can claim multiple daily flights to Poland, flights to Sao Paulo, and flights to Hong Kong. While the Chicago metro is the 3rd largest, it is still half the size of the New York metro area. I think Chicago is doing quite well for itself. Although, I'd love to see Singapore, Virgin, Varig, Aeroflot, and ANA return......
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:41 am

Its just not located in a natural place to be an international hub.

N
 
airplanetire
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 11:59 pm

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:41 am

I think there's a lot of people in the US on this website that wish their airports were as "weak" as ORD in international traffic. Compared to a lot of airports, ORD is a wonderland. I don't want to complain about lack of international service at my home airport of ATL, but there are few foreign airlines. There is Air France, British Airways, Air Jamaica, South African Airways, Aeromexico, Air Canada, Korean Air, and Lufthansa, most of which just have one flight. I'm still grateful to have them here but in ORD you have JAL, Korean Air, Royal Jordanian, Turkish Airlines, Air Canada, Mexicana, British Airways, Aer Lingus, Iberia, Air France, Lufthansa, KLM, Swiss, Alitalia, SAS, Air India, LOT, and probably a few more that I missed. Sure, you're not FRA or LHR, but ORD is not too shabby when it comes to international service.  Smile

-Airplanetire
 
ORDnDFW777
Topic Author
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:02 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:42 am

I'ld like to see the permanately delayed ORD - LAX - MEL service finally take off. CX will probably start in 2005 as AA will never settle with it's pilots. Rumors that TG will start in 2005 as well.
 
5NEOO
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:16 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:42 am

Chicago just has too much competition when it comes to vying for international tourists: NYC, LA, Miami, Las Vegas, Orlando etc. Chiacgo is a beautiful city but unfortunately not the first city in America most foreigners would wish to visit.
Admit it, you could care less about the continent Africa!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:43 am

Please, you've got to be kidding!

Flights to (*=direct):
Acapulco, Ahmedanbad (India)*, Amman, Amsterdam, Aruba, Bangalore*, Beijing, Birmingham (UK), Brussels, Calgary, Cancun, Copenhagen, Delhi*, Dublin, Dusseldorf, Frankfurt, Grand Cayman, Guadalajara, Guatemala City, Hong Kong, Islamabad*, Istanbul, Karachi*, Krakow, Kuwait City, Lahore*, London, Madrid, Manchester, Mexico City, Milan, Montego Bay, Monterrey, Montreal, Morelia (Mexico), Mumbai, Munich, Ottawa, Paris, Puerto Vallarta, San Jose*, Sao Paulo, Seoul, Shannon*, Stockholm, Tel Aviv*, Tokyo, Toronto, Vancouver, Warsaw, Winnipeg, Zacatecas, Zurich
a.
 
nethkt
Posts: 1014
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2001 10:27 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:48 am

That's sux.

The visa and terrorist issues are ruin international travel in the USA. I don't think US domestic demand of international flights is huge enough for airlines to fly there. It needs international travellers.

ANA and SQ stoped flying there. Too bad. Soon, more airlines will pull out I believe.
Let's just blame it on yields.
 
ORDnDFW777
Topic Author
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:02 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 12:02 pm

Unfortunately, that is probably true.
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:17 pm

One must also remember that in addition to the *anything but short* list of international destinations from ORD, several key cities are connected by multiple dailies.

Excluding the Americas, I believe LHR leads the way with TWELVE daily flights (if that's not a lot, I don't know what is). FRA and NRT are next with four dailies, then CDG with 3. AMS, MUC, ZRH, and MAN all have twice-daily service.

Aaron G.
 
jeffrey1970
Posts: 1243
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2001 1:41 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:33 pm

I thought Qantas was going to start to fly to ORD.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:20 pm

You forgot Glasgow in that list MAH4546, granted it being a summer only destination though  Smile
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
united4ever
Posts: 287
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:34 pm

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:32 pm

"Flights to (*=direct):
Acapulco, Ahmedanbad (India)*, Amman, Amsterdam, Aruba, Bangalore*, Beijing, Birmingham (UK), Brussels, Calgary, Cancun, Copenhagen, Delhi*, Dublin, Dusseldorf, Frankfurt, Grand Cayman, Guadalajara, Guatemala City, Hong Kong, Islamabad*, Istanbul, Karachi*, Krakow, Kuwait City, Lahore*, London, Madrid, Manchester, Mexico City, Milan, Montego Bay, Monterrey, Montreal, Morelia (Mexico), Mumbai, Munich, Ottawa, Paris, Puerto Vallarta, San Jose*, Sao Paulo, Seoul, Shannon*, Stockholm, Tel Aviv*, Tokyo, Toronto, Vancouver, Warsaw, Winnipeg, Zacatecas, Zurich"


But it doesn't have flights to CWL yet does it? eh? eh?
 Big grin
Mike
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2537
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:42 pm

I just think that ORD has surprisingly bad connections to YYZ and YUL but maybe that's just me looking for a few more interesting routes to ORD from Europe.
 Smile
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
airbusfanyyz
Posts: 1410
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 1:01 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:05 am

Weak?
I used to live in Chicago and I certainly miss some of the carriers since I returned to Toronto.
ORD has a formidable list of carriers;
Aer Lingus
Aeromexico
Air France
Air India
Air Jamaica
Alitalia
BMI
British Airways
Iberia
KLM
Kuwait Airways
Korean
LOT
Lufthansa
SAS
Swiss
Turkish

Cheers,
Kaz
 
airportplan
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:36 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:17 am

Usermittwoch

There are more daily operations from YYZ to ORD than to any other US market. Much of that has to do with AC/UA's Star Alliance connection.

UA/AC- 13 Daily Ops

AA- 6 Daily Ops
 
GoAllegheny
Posts: 310
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2000 4:48 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:19 am

I grew up in Pittsburgh in the late '70s; I still remember the excitement of seeing the tail of the BA 747 protruding over the roof of the old terminal near the highway after it started codeshare service with USAir. That was it for international flights.

Now I live in the greater Chicago area and consider ORD (and MDW, although I dislike that airport and its major airlines) to have unparalled domestic non-stop service to most areas of the US and darn good international service.

Now if only Taca or AA would start flying non-stop to San Jose, Costa Rica.
 
dia77
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 3:49 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:22 am

Couple of additions to AirbusFanYYZ's list. ORD also has Japan Airlines, PIA (Pakistan), Mexicana, Air Canada and soon Qantas
 
Thrust
Posts: 2586
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:39 am

Chicago is definently limited in the Asian market, but they are still a strong international airport if you count services to Europe. ORD-ZRH, ORD-LHR, ORD-MAN, ORD-FRA, ORD-LGW (is this a route out of Chicago?) Chicago has some of the most variant routes to Europe of any U.S. airport. Do they also operate into Madrid? I know AA plans to add ORD-HKG in 2005.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
PIA777
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:39 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:43 am

Air India , Royal Jordanian, Kuwait Airways and PIA all have twice
weekly services from ORD. I think PIA will be flying the 777 to ORD.

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
timberwolf24
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:38 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:20 am

Also add...Lacsa, Aviacsa, Cayman Airways and EL AL. However it looks as if Qantas will not be adding service to ORD.
Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:55 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:25 am

ORD is "weak" in international flights? What must it be like for those mere mortals in DTW, MIA and BOS?  Big grin
Don't forget VS, they're looking to return to ORD.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:59 am

ORD-LGW (is this a route out of Chicago?)

all ORD-LON routes are into LHR


Do they also operate into Madrid?

Not quite sure of the "they" you're speaking about... but IB flies MAD-ORD
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
mlsrar
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 7:41 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:04 am

I am yet befuddled by Neil's comment about the geographical disposition regarding Chicago, but it has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with its position as a mega-hub.

The business around Chicago is, and always will be the factor driving the flights and producing and propagating the traffic for the carriers that serve ORD.

I think that the number of flights is well-suited to the size of the city, but that's just my .02.
I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
jsnww81
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:34 am

You guys are nuts!

ORD is an international spotters' dream - while it doesn't hold a candle to LHR, NRT or FRA, it's got way more variety than 99% of the airports in the US.

Granted, after 9/11 we lost Austrian, ANA, Aeroflot, Virgin Atlantic, Singapore Airlines and Sabena, but we've gained Royal Jordanian, Kuwait Airways, Pakistan Intl., and Air Jamaica.

Besides, what other city in the US offers LOT 767 service to both Warsaw AND Krakow?  Smile
 
airportplan
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:36 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:44 am

One of the major reasons that Boeing choose to located its headquarers in Chicago verses Dallas or Denver was the wide variety of domestic and international destinations that are served non-stop out of ORD.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:49 am

Granted, after 9/11 we lost Austrian, ANA, Aeroflot, Virgin Atlantic, Singapore Airlines and Sabena, but we've gained Royal Jordanian, Kuwait Airways, Pakistan Intl., and Air Jamaica.

I was pretty sure Royal Jordanian and Kuwait Airways were there long before September 2001.

Besides, what other city in the US offers LOT 767 service to both Warsaw AND Krakow?

Newark and New York City, though Chicago is the only one with year-round Krakow service.
a.
 
 
Chgoan
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:38 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:57 am

I'm from Chicago and think we have great international service considering our location geographically. Some destination just can't be reached with non stop flights from this city.....but that's why we have lots of direct service.

One thing I am surprised by is the lack of flights to JFK. Yes, lots for flights to LGA, but only one, maybe two flights on ComAir to JFK from ORD. I would have thought there would been more to JFK in order to service more connecting international departures. I'm sure there is a good business reason for it.
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 2871
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:00 am

The LOT flights... you could almost call them domestic. Chicago has the 2nd largest population of polish people in the world, after Warsaw. Krakow has less polish people than Chicago... so that explains those flights

TWA902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:07 am

add Amman, Aruba, Montego, Puerto Vallarta, Beijing, Cancun, Sao Paulo, Zacatecas, Birmingham, Ottawa, Alcapulco.... and you'll have it  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ORD747CLE
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:31 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:31 am

Thrust -- Per ConcordeBoy's post, there are no direct flights to LGW...why fly there when you can have LHR!

I believe Delta used to offer ORD-MILAN only a few years ago. Can anyone confirm?

Ord747Cle
 
Thrust
Posts: 2586
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:38 am

Sorry about that, ConcordeBoy. I was referring to AA about Madrid.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
Chgoan
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:38 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:10 pm

I don't remember Delta offering ORD-Milan. Only Alitalia offers the Milan route....Delta does through codeshare.
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:47 pm

Wow the magnitude of speculation on this thread is pretty huge.

"Besides, what other city in the US offers LOT 767 service to both Warsaw AND Krakow?

Newark and New York City, though Chicago is the only one with year-round Krakow service. "

Neither EWR nor JFK have II International (KRK / EPKK), Poland">KRK scheduled service. I dont want to hear the far in between charters and the likes of WAW-YEG that LOT dropped.

"Granted, after 9/11 we lost Austrian, ANA, Aeroflot, Virgin Atlantic, Singapore Airlines and Sabena, but we've gained Royal Jordanian, Kuwait Airways, Pakistan Intl., and Air Jamaica.
"

ORD certainly didnt gain RJ, Kuwait and AJ after 9/11. Go back a few years and you could see Air Jamaica 727s on the ORD tarmac. RJ just recently switched to A342 from A310 equip and Kuwait has been here before 9/11.
We gained a few more airlines in the form of: PrivatAir, Aviacsa, Grupo TACA, Cayman and EL AL (Not NA codeshare)

BTW there are various asian airlines that operate scheduled cargo into ORD apart from the scheduled asian carriers (THY, Kuwait, RJ, Air India, JAL, Korean) Go to Cargo city and you will see: China Eastern Cargo, China Airlines Cargo, Air China Cargo, Eva Air Cargo, China Southern Cargo, Singapore Cargo, Korean Cargo, JAL Cargo, NCA, Cathay Pacific Cargo
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:28 pm

The LOT flights... you could almost call them domestic. Chicago has the 2nd largest population of polish people in the world, after Warsaw. Krakow has less polish people than Chicago... so that explains those flights


It is commonly said that Chicago has the 2nd largest Polish population, but it's just under 1,000,000 Poles is less than the Krakow region's population of 1,5M.
a.
 
ssides
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:22 pm

Anyone who thinks ORD is weak in international traffic is just kidding themselves. Face it -- the biggest business market from the US is going to be Europe. Until the Asian and Latin Ameircan economies start gaining real, prolonged and sustainable steam, air service from the US, other than from the West Coast and the South, respectively, is going to be limited. Given its location, Chicago has great international service.

Second issue:

This gets discussed at least three times per week, but I am not going to stop correcting people until they finally understand. The following quote is simply not true:

The LOT flights... you could almost call them domestic. Chicago has the 2nd largest population of polish people in the world, after Warsaw. Krakow has less polish people than Chicago... so that explains those flights.

I am sick and f***ing tired of people asserting that "____ city has such a big ___ population, that's why it has [or should have] flights to ___ country." People, what drives airline routes is business, business, business. Airlines aren't going to serve a city just so some 17-year-old kid can go back to the home country and visit grandma once a year. Yes, Chicago has a large Polish population, but how many of those people still have direct ties to Poland? Not enough to justify two daily flights, believe me. DFW has a huge Indian population, but I don't see AA planning to start DFW-DEL flights any time soon. Please wake up, people. If this logic were true, we'd have non-stop SAT-FRA flights, DSM-MEX flights, and MSP-OSL flights.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
VectorVictor
Posts: 384
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:31 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:48 pm

we'd have non-stop SAT-FRA flights

Actually, I think they would use New Braunfels instead of San Antonio for this service.  Smile

In the case of Chicago, the assertions about its vibrant Polish community and their ties to their native region are somewhat true and partially justify LOT's impressive schedule into O'Hare
 
jsnww81
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:29 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:55 pm

Ssides:

I agree with you completely. There is quite a bit of wishfulness on this site from people claiming their area deserves international flights because of a large ethnic community.

HOWEVER, in the case of Chicago's Polish community, the original poster was right on target. The Polish influence in this city is huge. New immigrants from Poland are STILL pouring into Chicago, even though European immigration to the United States has slowed down in the past few decades. There are whole sections of town where billboards, signposts, and even traffic signs are written in Polish, and where you'll find "We Speak English" signs in the windows of shops. I moved here from Dallas a few years ago, and was literally astounded to see how strong and vibrant the Polish influence here is. Particularly since we never really had any Poles in Dallas.  Smile

There's a huge and thriving Polish ethnic and business community here, and there IS a tremendous amount of traffic going back and forth between Warsaw/Krakow and Chicago. The flights are packed - not with white-bread WASP businessmen going to overseas meetings (like you might find on an LHR flight), but with real live Polish immigrant families going home to see relatives. Take a look at the LOT counter in Terminal 5 sometime and check out the crowds.

Ordinarily I'm just as frustrated as you by the "I'm Colombian and live in Duluth so we should have a daily service to Bogota" argument. Chicago's Polish community, however, shouldn't warrant that kind of frustration. There are still EXTREMELY direct ties to Poland in Chicago - so much so that many people consider themselves Polish first and Chicagoan second.
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2636
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:45 am

These are the international carriers into ORD with passenger service:

Aerlingus
AeroMexico
Air France
Air India
Air Jamaica
Alitalia
Aviacsa
British Airways
BMI
Cayman Airways
EL AL
Iberia
JAL
KLM
Korean Air
Kuwait Airways
LOT
Lufthansa
Mexicana
PIA
Royal Jordanian
SAS
Swiss
Taca
Turkish Airlines

 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:56 am

"It is commonly said that Chicago has the 2nd largest Polish population, but it's just under 1,000,000 Poles is less than the Krakow region's population of 1,5M. "

The population of Krakow is just under 800k but the "Metro" area is hardly that. If you counted like that then Katowice Metro would be 2x bigger than Warsaw (1.7m) @ 3.5 million.

"People, what drives airline routes is business, business, business. Airlines aren't going to serve a city just so some 17-year-old kid can go back to the home country and visit grandma once a year. Yes, Chicago has a large Polish population, but how many of those people still have direct ties to Poland? Not enough to justify two daily flights, believe me."

What kind of BS is this? LOT lives on 17 year old kids and families going to and from Poland and people visiting on vacations. Christ ive flown LOT myself at least 18 times to go back to Poland between the ages of 7-18.

By the way, if you look at your 04 Almanac you will note that after Mexicans and Indians the 3rd largest group of immigrants to Illinois (Almost all to Chicago) are Poles. When the hell is the last time you were at the end of T5 at the LOT counter or been on a LOT flight from Chicago to Warsaw in the summer? Honestly, go to Belmont and Central Ave. and ask anyone out there in Polish if they flew LOT back to Poland at least once. I guarantee you will get a "yes" answer almost everytime you ask. BTW, I boarded a LOT flight to WAW while at gate M5 (Next to our M4) was the Krakow flight...ive never seen such confusion in my life!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

 
airportplan
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:36 am

RE: Chicago Weak In International Flights

Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:19 am

I use to work in Terminal 5 at ORD and there were almost no business travelers on the LOT flights. Most of the traffic was family members going back and forth. The new immigrants coming to Chicago for the first time from Warsaw and Krakow were hilarious. The older folk were dressed in their best suits and dresses and the teenager had their most trendy clothes on or at least what they thought was the lastest trend.

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