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Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:53 am

Qantas and Origin Pacific will end their code sharing agreement in March this year. Qantas passengers have flowen some Origin Pacific Routes. Qantas has also helped Origin Pacific expand and has also helped fund Origin Pacific's fleet expansion.
"Wilson said Origin Pacific were told by Qantas that they would be given 12 months notice if Qantas wanted to end the code sharing, but this had not occured".
Origin's new focus would be on feeding international airlines that already came to New Zealand, many of which were keen to develop relationships.
A new relationship between Origin Pacific and an international airline would be announced today.

Source http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/businessstorydisplay.cfm?storyID=3544869&thesection=business&thesubsection=transport&thesecondsubsection=aviation
 
VirginFlyer
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:01 am

This could be bad news for Origin - word has been going around for some time now that they may not be a viable operation in the long run...

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
777ER
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:45 pm

VirginFlyer
Origin will announce soon who they will team up with. Pacific Blue and Origin are having heavy talks about code sharing. There is also talks with KLM and Malaysia Airlines
 
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:53 pm

Just read that Origin have signed a deal with KLM who they code share with Malaysia Airlines on flights to New Zealand
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:16 pm

I think that this is really just the beginning of Qantas' exit strategy from the NZ domestic market. They have a pretty pitiful presence at the mo, with only 3 routes and not the best of frequencies or reliability (I've had 3 flights cancelled in a 2 month period because of lack of passengers).

Once Pacific Blue start domestic ops on the prime routes, expect to see an agreement with Origin Pacific. Then I suspect Qantas will just have to interline with Air New Zealand flights, as Air NZ has to do with QF flights for transferring pax onto domestic Oz routes.
 
airnewzealand
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:22 pm

Agree with VirginFlyer,
Word has it, staf have not been paid in a while, and the business is going to go belly flop soon.

Cheers
Mike
 
rongotai
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:00 pm

Not sure it's as simple as that Aerokiwi.

1. Jetconnect don't just fly QF NZ domestic, but QF 737's Trans Tasman as well. If they have to absorb those back into QF cost structure, then they'll be in poor shape to compete on the Tasman. What do you think of the economics of just having Jetconnect as a Trans Tasman operator?

2. The absence of Star Alliance within Australia is a problem for UA/NZ/SQ. I wonder whether the absence of One World within NZ wouldn't be an even bigger headache for QF.

3. If neither One World not Star Alliance could treat Austalasia as one market, isn't there a big risk of handing Virgin Blue/Pacific Blue a huge gift?

I'm gold on both QF and NZ so I'm a neutral and would just like to know!
 
rongotai
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:06 pm

Just looked on the QF website. They are showing WLG-CHC as Origin codeshare ATR's and Jetstreams until 31-10-04. From november on they are showing the flights as all being 737-300's.
 
wirraway
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:26 pm



QANTAS Airways to Add New New Zealand Routes

SYDNEY, Jan 22 Asia Pulse - Qantas Airways Ltd is to add two new routes to its New Zealand domestic network.

Qantas Airlines New Zealand and Pacific regional general manager Allan Williams announced today that the airline would begin flying Boeing 737s between Christchurch and Rotorua and Christchurch and Wellington from April 1.

Qantas has been operating jet services between Auckland and Wellington and Auckland and Christchurch since establishing its New Zealand domestic operations in April 2001.

"We are now operating a fleet of five Boeing 737s and have progressively added services and destinations since then, including Christchurch-Queenstown in September last year and Auckland-Queenstown non-stop in October," Mr Williams said.

"Our new Christchurch-Rotorua services will be part of a same plane through service linking Queenstown and Rotorua via Christchurch."

He said the routes would appeal to domestic travellers as well as international visitors flying with Qantas into New Zealand.

From April 1, Qantas will operate 300 domestic flights each week, including 56 return services between Auckland and Christchurch and 45 between Auckland and Wellington.

Qantas is introducing the new services following a decision to no longer lease aircraft from, or codeshare, with New Zealand regional carrier Origin Pacific.

==========================================

 
aussie747
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:41 pm

Perhaps this the start of QF realising that the alliance will not work with NZ and will instead now go all out for the kill with NZ, and now go head for head rather than be closely alligned. Does anyone have load / pax statistics for the Jet Connect operation, or it's domestic operation?
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:58 pm

I think both QF and NZ have a "better the devil you know" strategy and will both be doing their darndest to make like difficult for that team of Virgins.
Quite an experienced team of virgins now though.
come visit the south pacific
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:09 pm

Despite it's lower cost base than QF's domestic Oz operations, JetConnect still doesn't make money. How long will that be sustainable? The trans Tasman ops are probably more profitable (or lose less money than QFs) so will likely be kept. But with 3 airlines on domestic routes, it just wont be sustainable. One of those carriers is government owned, doing rather nicely now and has the strong customer base. The other two are offshoots of Australian airlines, one using NZ as a base to launch its international ops, the other providing an irregular and continually unprofitable service on just 3 routes it doesn't really need.

I don't think the loss of NZ doemstic will be causing any headaches for oneworld carriers. QF flys to all the major cities, so it wont make a huge amount of diff. In fact, I would go so far as to say it wouldn't impact upon their international uplift at all.
 
thadocta
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:25 pm

"2. The absence of Star Alliance within Australia is a problem for UA/NZ/SQ. I wonder whether the absence of One World within NZ wouldn't be an even bigger headache for QF.'

I don't think so. Australia is a much bigger market than NZ will ever be, and not having an Evil Empire (aka Star Alliance) feed in Australia hurts far more carriers - UA, NZ, TG, SQ, et al - than not having a Forces of Goodness and Righteousness (aka oneworld) feed in NZ ever will.

Dave
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:08 pm

I doubt very much that Qantas will leave the New Zealand market. They may not have a great schedule, but they sure took a lot of market share away from ANZ. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure to have heard Dixon say during a news conference that loads in the NZ Domestic market are positive, and that there was no way of them leaving NZ.
And lets face it (no offence to anyone) if QF where to flex its muscle just a little, Air NZ would find it very difficult to compete with the $$ QF has and the 'low-cost' model of Virgin.
It may be a government backed airline, but the government won't be shovelling money to ANZ forever.
This is why, eventually in the long run (as stated by many financial analyst) QF and ANZ will merge!!
I also doubt very much that Jetconnect is bleeding money, or not making any as pointed out.
With all the cost cutting that has taken place in QF, I am sure Dixon would not operate something just to have a loss at the bottom line.
A few months ago he said that 'all Qantas operations where back in making money'

 
rongotai
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:48 pm

Aerokiwi

I don't know enough about this to be dogmatic, but I know a good few people like me who do NZ domestic trips at least twice a week when not doing our 3-4 time a year longhauls. I also do WLG-SYD-WLG every second Monday.

At present I am Oneworld, but if I couldn't get FF points for my domestic trips on the same card as international, then I'd be back with Star Alliance in no time.

PS - I left Star in the first place in order to access BA sleeper beds SYD-LHR. That is an advantage that will go with NZ's $20 million 744 cabin refit, plus the option of SQ.
 
777ER
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 4:34 pm

QF's NZ domestic flights are not making any money.
 
Kiwi dave
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:42 pm

I read an item a few years back about Origin Pacific and the CEO said that they were going to expand nice and slow but with Tasman Pacific going bust they were forced to expand faster than expected.
 
anstar
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:53 pm

I don't think QFNZ is loosing money at all...

Dixon made a statement a few months back claiming all business' were now making progit. Ie catering, domestic, international. I would assume this includes Jetconnect as its a seperate bsuiness.
 
777ER
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:47 pm

Qantas (Jetconnect) is not making any money on their kiwi routes. The person who told me is a very reliable source
 
wirraway
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:10 pm

Fri "Melbourne Age"

Qantas outflanks Pacific Blue on NZ routes
By Scott Rochfort
Sydney
January 23, 2004

The likelihood of a long airline war across the Tasman grew yesterday after Qantas announced the expansion of its New Zealand domestic network, just one week out from Pacific Blue's first scheduled trans-Tasman flight.

Sending its most combative message yet to the Virgin offshoot, Qantas said it planned to commence flights from Wellington and Rotorua into Pacific Blue's home base of Christchurch on April 1.

But, as Pacific Blue is not expected to commence domestic flights in NZ until late 2004, analysts said it was Air New Zealand that stood to lose the most from the competition.

As it is, Pacific Blue is cutting it thin in gaining the necessary permission to fly into New Zealand, as the airline has yet to obtain a NZ Air Operators Certificate. It is scheduled to make its first flight between Brisbane and Christchurch next Thursday.

However, Virgin's David Huttner said he was confident the airline would get the necessary approval after its first "proving flight" early next week.

By late March, Pacific Blue expects to be flying trans-Tasman flights from Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Cairns, Hobart, Launceston, Townsville and Perth into either Christchurch and/or Wellington.

Qantas is expected to unveil the route structure for its low-cost offshoot, JetStar, within days, before the airline's first tickets go on sale via the internet in mid-February.

With the airline scheduled to start operations in May with a fleet of 14 Boeing 717s and three Airbus 320s, analysts expect JetStar to follow the same route structure as Qantas's existing fleet of B717s before it builds up its fleet of A320s.

Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation managing director Peter Harbison said: "What we're really looking at is Impulse 3, if the existing Impulse in Qantas was Impulse 2 with another 10 seats.

"So, there are a whole lot of routes already where Impulse has been operating and you can assume that will continue but (with) more aggressive pricing."

Qantas's B717 fleet currently services Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Newcastle, Launceston, the Gold Coast, Cairns, Maroochydore, Mackay, Hamilton Island, Rockhampton and Mount Isa.

Given the healthy growth outlook for the domestic aviation market, UBS analyst Steve Wood said now was the ideal time for JetStar to start operations.

"Qantas is running 80 per cent load factors and Virgin is running slightly above that; the market will easily absorb the JetStar capacity," he said.

Qantas shares hit a three-month high of $3.62 yesterday, before closing 2¢ higher at $3.60.

===========================================

 
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:39 pm

Air NZ operate 3150+ flights each week in New Zealand and Qantas (Jetconnect) will operate from 1st April 300 flights each week. That is a huge difference of 2850+ flights each week. Air New Zealand's Express Class service is proving very popular and Air NZ's flights are leaving nearly all the time full and Qantas (Jetconnect) are not doing well. Maybe Kiwis like to fly Kiwi Airlines so maybe that is why Qantas flights are nearly empty. Everytime I have been at an Airport that Jetconnects B733s depart from I have seen on average about 60 passengers on the flights. Jetconnects WLG flights don't have much passengers on them. What Jetconnect needs is smaller Jets like the B717 for Domestic and B733s for Transtasmin flights. Air NZ will not be the biggest looser from the increased competition because Air NZ operates 2850+ more flights each week then Jetconnect. Jetconnect will because their NZ domestic operations are not making any profits. Last year when I was in Wellington I was talking to a Jetconnect flight attendent and I asked him how well are Qantas's NZ operations going and he said that they were not good.
 
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BNE
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:13 pm

If AirNZ have 3150 flights a week compared to the 300 Qantas Jetconnect isn't AirNZ got more to loose.

I wonder whether Qantas will ever decide to send the 717s over to NZ.

They will be a smaller plane. A 737-300 between Wellington and Christchurch to me seems to be a bit of an overkill.

I am flying Origin Pacific next week. It will be interesting to see how full the flight is and what the service is like.


Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
Kiwi dave
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:59 pm

Jetconnect only operates the one type of aircraft the 737-300 (unless I have missed the other types) where AirNZ operates most types in its fleet on domestic flights 744, 763, A320, 733, ATR, Saab 340 and Beech 1900D so in terms of the number of flights each week of course Jetconnect can't cut it with AirNZ. (someone can correct me if the 762 does operate domestic flights)
I wonder how many of 3150+ flights flown by AirNZ are flown by 737s.
Also a source of mine told me that Jetconnect is making a more money now than before because of the flights to Australia from Wellington and Christchurch.
 
Beno
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:10 pm

777ER,

I would be very surprised if ANZ operate 3150 flights per week within NZ domestic routes.

Considering the QF group (Including QLink/AO/Jetconnect) operate around 5800 flights a week.
 
TG992
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:24 pm

NZ operates around 450 domestic flights per day.
-
 
wirraway
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:27 pm

TBCIDG wrote:
Somebody please correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure to have heard Dixon say during a news conference that loads in the NZ Domestic market are positive, and that there was no way of them leaving NZ

You have quoted Dixon correct.

777ER
You must remember Qantas NZ costs are at least 20-30% less than ANZ through
Jetconnect, plus QF is just waiting till later this year to see if they get the
deal with ANZ, and if they don't the gloves will come off, and between them
and Pacific Blue, somebody's got to lose, and being that Virgin costs are
about the same as Jetconnect you do not have to be a rocket scientist
to figure who that will be.

Wirraway


[Edited 2004-01-23 14:29:41]
 
QANTASpower
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:04 pm

You kiwis can gloat all you like about QF's NZ operations losing money ... the fact is it is just a matter of time before your airline becomes a Qantas subsidiary.

 
anstar
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:54 am

Again, as Dixon previously said all operations are now making money.

I don't think he could make that statement if Jetconnect was loosing $$$ as that would clearly be misleading shareholders!!!

Also, NZ operate 470 services a day (3290 per week) doemstically.
http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/timetablesandflightinfo/routes/new_zealand_routes.htm

So I definately think NZ have the most to loose.

ANstar
 
rongotai
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:22 am

I have averaged over 100 New Zealand domestic flights a year for the past 25 years. A couple of years ago I shifted from NZ to QF as first choice mainly because of my international requirements and the FF consequences.

But I am finding this commitment unsustainable (and when I say 'my' I am also talking about my employees who fly more than I do) because:

a. QF are turning out to be unreliable:
b. QF lack a comprehensive regional network, (so you still have to fly NZ if you are connecting to HKK or wherever)
c. Above all, frequency, frequency, frequency. For example QF have no AKL-WLG flight between 10.00 and 15.00 on a Sunday. Absolute downer for someone who wants to support them.

So my company alone is about to shift about $500,000 a year back to NZ. I can't imagine Virgin overcoming b. and c. in my list any time soon.

From my business peers I deduce that Ansett NZ and QANTAS NZ suffered from the same pattern - initial enthusiasm from the business community followed by a slow realisation that they couldn't match the coverage of NZ. I know many people who went to Ansett NZ out of a desire to support a true private sector company over a government owned one, but then found that they were really disadvantaging their own businesses too much.
 
Beno
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:34 am

Jetconnect are getting rid of the ex AN 733s and replacing them with more QF 733s very soon.

QF still have 9 733s operating in OZ most of those will be sent to NZ to replace the leased 733s and open up more routes/flights.
 
aussie747
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:41 am

Long term if the QF Jet connect runs rell and is going head to head with ANZ and Virgin, what are the chances QF will replace it's 733's with 738's on option or perhaps even operate Jetstar in NZ (probably to many legal remifications for that option I would think) ??? Just a thought as its 733's are quite ageing.
 
777ER
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:46 am

the fact is it is just a matter of time before your airline becomes a Qantas subsidiary.

No way would any NZ Government let Qantas take over Air NZ. This will never happen because New Zealand would no longer have a national carrier and there is NO way the Australian Governement would allow a Foreign carrier to buy out Qantas cause then the Aussies would no longer have a national carrier. So QANTASpower you can stop dreaming of Air NZ being fully owned by Qantas Smile

So I definately think NZ have the most to loose

Kiwis are loyal to New Zealand products. Hence the fact that The Warehouse is doing very well and is putting overseas business out of business because New Zealanders are loyal to New Zealand owned business. New Zealaners will continue to fly Air NZ in droves because NZ is a Kiwi airline and New Zealanders are damn proud Kiwis Smile NZ gets the most passengers on its flights not because of DAMN proud Kiwis flying a Kiwi Airline but because of the fact that Air NZ is part of the World biggest Alliance - Star Alliance. Another reason why NZ gets the most passengers who are flying in NZ is because Air NZ has earned a World Wide Reputation for excellent Customer Service and this is why when the tourists come back to New Zealand thry again fly Air NZ because they really like the very friendly Air NZ staff. Air NZ have got the biggest network in New Zealand and unless Qantas (Jetconnect) or Pacific Blue start flying to Regional Airports with either Turbo-Props or RJs then Air NZ will not loose much Smile

 Smile/happy/getting dizzyThis is a post FROM A DAMN PROUD KIWI Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 Smile/happy/getting dizzyAir New Zealand-The Worlds Warmest Welcome Smile/happy/getting dizzy

 
VirginFlyer
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:57 am

777ER - I think you need to make a better argument here than "This will never happen because New Zealand would no longer have a national carrier and there is NO way the Australian Governement would allow a Foreign carrier to buy out Qantas cause then the Aussies would no longer have a national carrier."

Quite what the Australian government's position on Qantas has to do with this, I don't know, however if the New Zealand government is faced with 2 options: 1) Air NZ is bought out by Qantas, 2) Air NZ is wound up, which do you think it would choose? I hope this doesn't become this case, because I believe a QF/NZ merger would be bad for pretty much everyone except the two airlines, and their shareholders. But nonetheless, it is a possibility. Deal with it.

The Wharehouse is doing well because it is cheap and readily available. If anything, the Warehouse is a counter example for you - you will find the vas majority of their stock is made overseas (generally China, India, Indonesia from experience) because it is cheaper there. The Wharehouse has been responsible for a number of New Zealand businesses having to shut down, because they simply couldn't compete with cheaply made merchandise being shipped in from overseas, and sold in Tindall's big red sheds.

I would suggest the reason people fly Air NZ has more to do with the fact that, as mentioned by a number of people here, they offer a better service, with greater frequencies, and more destinations, and all this at low fares unheard of 18 months ago. The Star Alliance factor helps out too, although that is somewhat neutralised by the Qantas OneWorld factor. To say that people will continue to fly it in droves just because it is a Kiwi airline ignores all rational sense. If Air NZ were to charge $2000 for every seat AKL-WLG, I doubt they'd be able to sell much more than half a dozen. But NZ is selling seats at very low prices, certainly much lower than has been seen before, and as a result of this, more and more people are flying.

There is nothing wrong with being a proud Kiwi - as anyone who knows me personally will tell you, I certainly am - however, you shouldn't let that cloud your judgement of a situation, and you certainly shouldn't use it as an excuse to make bold assertations with little to back them up...

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
rongotai
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:26 am

I both share 777ER's emotions and VirginFlyer's reality. As indicated earlier I run a high airline user NZ business that does 50% of its work overseas (and proud of it). My type of operation is half the backbone of domestic air travel in New Zealand (the other half is the public service). If I travel now on the 07.05 Origin (QF) ATR WLG-CHC it is 60% full and most of them are tourists going on to Queenstown. On the same flight in October there would be about 10 people. On the 06.55 NZ flight it is 60% full summer and winter and they are the same people - they even say good morning to each other.

My first loyalty is to my Kiwi company and my Kiwi employees. Thus in choice of airline I am price driven - whether the airline is owned by Australians or Kiwis doesn't come into it. But being price driven means that if my meeting in CHC finishes early and I find myself sitting around the airport for two hours because of poor frequency -that is a cost unless I have some laptop work I can do. I want to minimise airport sitting time because that is a cost. Fares are a minor consideration. The current fare differential between QF and NZ WLG-AKL buys 3 minutes of my time. Therefore lost time due to poor frequency is a large consideration. Similarly if I have frequent business in HKK or TRG, splitting my airline accounts main trunk and provincial is a cost. So NZ wins out not because it is Kiwi, but because it minimises my costs.

It is business drivers in the previous paragraph that screws competitiors on New Zealand domestic services eventually. Every time a competitor starts up we try them, and then drift back to NZ (who in the meantime have been gingered up by the competitive attempt). Despite the differences this time I suspect the same will happen again. Cherry picking trunk routes works in many countries, but not in this one. Also NZ is very good at one thing - responding to competition at home. When Ansett came along it got airbridges and Koru Club in place in no time flat. This time it has launched a low cost operation in no time flat.

As it happens I agree that long term we are probably headed for a QF-NZ tie up, and that wouldn't be a bad thing. But in the short, even medium, term there are far too many emotional and political barriers and, yes, the New Zealand government would not allow NZ to go under and leave Service to New Zealand without a locally based operator. The shift will come, if and when 'local' is allowed to include Australia.
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:07 pm

There are obvious emotions that cloud some judgment here in this "debate". But lets face the facts. The New Zealand government will not always bail out ANZ. Sure things have improved but when Pacific Blue jump over the Tasman, things will be very difficult at ANZ.Wether they only take 20-30 % of the market share, it will no doubt hurt ANZ's bottom line. Much more than at QF.
If things do really get ugly, QF have a huge cash surplus which they may not want to burn in a airfare battle, but they will certainly give ANZ a run for their money. QF have other ways in which too generate cash (Australian Airlines, Qantas Link, Catering, Qantas Holidays, JetStar) etc. etc. which may offset any losses in NZ.
We must remember that even is QF where to buy into ANZ the carrier would more than likely operate under its own brand etc. Obviously the government would never permit for NZ to loose its image. But it would rather that some other airline (QF) deal with the bottom line :$$$$
QF would have the same relations with ANZ that are current with BA.
One must think of the positives in this and that is the amount of feeder traffic that ANZ would get from QF-BA-AA-LAN in the market. It may not be the best thing for the flying public but for ANZ it would be the best thing to keep it afloat.
One must look at Europe, Latin America etc to know that mergers are happening, and will soon arrive at a Airline near you!

 
777ER
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:19 pm

Air NZ could loose market share on the main routes eg AKL-WLG, WLG-CHC, CHC-AKL and ZQN-AKL which have the B733s operating them. But Air NZ will keep a good market share on the Regional routes like to HLZ, ROT etc. Overall Air NZ will keep a good market share because of their Regional operations. But that is unless Qantas or Pacific Blue (Qantas is more likly) start flying Regional routes. Since Qantas (Jetconnect) started flying main trunk domestic routes, Air NZ has keeped a good market share.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:56 pm

Interesting that suddenly Air NZ needs "bailing out". Funny, I recall a $200 million plus profit in the last year. Yes, yes, QF were farting around on their domestic NZ ops, but even with their enormous financial clout, how much money is Dixon willing to lose just for NZ domestic? And will QF shareholders tolerate such losses for what is a very small prize?

And why is it assumed that if worst comes to worst, the NZ govt would not help Air nZ. They invested a billion dollars in the airline (now worth nearly 3 times that much) and that is an investment worth defending. plus, this is a left-wing govt. and is likely to remain in power for at least another term (at this rate anyway).

And please remember, the Commerce Commission is interested only in preserving competition. Until carriers start offering genuine alternatives on main trunk routes (both domestic and trans Tasman), with competitive schedules, the NZ/QF tie-up will never happen. The commercial survival of a company does not really factor into the NZCC's considerations. It's not up to them to save a company.

Perhaps JETConnect is profitable, now that it is flying trans-Tasman flights. But this still doesn't mean the domestic routes are making money.
 
QANTASpower
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:21 pm

What you people have to realise is that Pacific Blue will quickly build up a trans tasman schedule and snare say 20-30% of the market. What will happen then is that Qantas will agree to "sell" or more likely give away the underperforming NZ domestic network to Virgin.

Then hey presto they will get what they have wanted all along 25% of Air New Zealand as the arguments about competition will no longer hold.

This 25% shareholding will over time will move to full control as the barriers to takeover of national airlines beocome a thing of the past. We could be talking 10 years here.

Hopefully Qantas will be strong enough to fend off a takeover itself.

I completely understand how New Zealanders would feel if QF took over their airline. The thought of Qantas being taken over makes me very ill.



 
TBCITDG
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:51 am

Things may look OK for ANZ at the moment, but not only will Pacific Blue take market share away from them but also Emirates will take a chunk of business away from all players on the Tasman run. Especially if they increase services as rumored by crew.
And again, QF have the $$ to lower costs and if need be to "flood" the market with seats. We see it happening now. All flights between SYD-AKL that where once 737 are now operated by 767 along with 743 and 744. Sure it may be because of the season that we are in, but this change took place quite a while ago. QF have more aircraft arriving in the not too distant future.
Aerokiwi: Please don't take things so seriously. No one stated that the Goverment would not bail out ANZ if things got that bad. All I merely wanted to say was that they would prefer QF to come and give additional capital to a struggling airline. Please understand that QF don't whant 100% of ANZ. (even though they would love to).The Goverment would continue to play a role in ANZ along with QF and any other investors! And regarding competition, one has to ask, what is Pacific Blue, Emirates, Aerolineas Argentinas (to a degree), Lan Chile (to a degree), Thai (to a degree) etc. The 'we need competition' excuse will not last forever.
 
rongotai
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:43 am

While I actually agree that eventually there will probably be a QF/NZ tie up of some kind, there are problems here that haven't been stated yet in this thread.

The strategic problem for New Zealand is that is geographically isolated, many of its high performing industries are entirely dependent on air freight, and the type of capacity dumping schedules that airlines like Emirates produce are totally unsuitable for the business and freight markets. Emirates' current schedules might as well not exist as far as New Zealand business travellers are concerned.

New Zealand business has problems enough getting NZ to produce what it needs, let alone anybody else. e.g disappearance of 767 freight capcity at WLG and CHC to OZ. There are very powerful political pressures from business (despite all its free market rhetoric) about maintaining some sort of strategic influence over air services to New Zealand.

I'm not saying that this will prevent any significant ownership changes in the future, but I certainly know that it is a big influence on New Zealand government behaviour in respect of commercial aviation.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:08 pm

TBCITDG - I agree, Qantas don't want to own 100% of Air NZ. Instead, they want to pay for 22.5% of it and take a 50% level of control. Sound like a con? Hmmmm, actually, yes.

I fully agree that if/when QF pulls out of NZ domestic and Pacific Blue moves in, that the chances of a QF/NZ tie up will increase, though I doubt QF would get the sweetheart deal that it had been trying to get.

But there will have to be one carrier that provides enough frequencies on necessary major routes before the commerce Commission will allow the QF/NZ tie-up (takeover). But that will take time for Pacific Blue.

Perhaps Pacific Blue will grab 20% or more of the market. But markets don't stay stagnant. In all likelihood the marketplace will grow considerably, as it has done in Australia and Europe, and Pacific Blue's main customer base will continue to be low-yielding tourists and occassional business people that otherwise would not have travelled. This could be the start of the Europeanisation of air tavel in the South Pacific, with tour companies offering charter services and low-fare airlines opening the market to people who otherwise wouldn't even contemplate an international trip. In which case, NZ would likely still be left with the business pax market, along with tourists and frequent flyer members, while budget carriers take the lower yielding market, which is fine for their cost base.

I suspect we are about to witness increasing segmentation of the airline market in our region, not the death of major national carriers, as some would so evidently just love to see happen.
 
airnewzealand
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:34 pm

Hey dudes,
QF Jetconnest is making money on NZ routes....This is a fact (I am a KIWI)...

QF current load factor is 82% on NZ routes....they have around 130 seats on board, so this does work out to be alot higher than 60 seats....This is a fact...

QF jetconnect are ALWAYS prone to delays...This is a fact...average ontime last month was 82%. (It was christmas though).
Fact, QF are sending over another two more 733 by March...

Fact, Jet connect are serving BNE and SYD from SYD/WLG/CHC on selected flights.

Fact, Jetconnect are a good airline, though they cannot compete with AirNZ on the level they are currently flying at, this is why they are expanding... and wait to see new routes, and wait also to see Jetconnect take over SYD completly...(This is highly likely).

777ER..
Its great that you support NZ so much, but have you taken a recent flight with them? They are not the warmest welcome no more! Fact, they are very dissapointing, especially since you have vomit lying and stinking out your cabin for 1 and a half hours!!
The cabin crew hate their jobs (Was told this by the purser on both flights and warned not to become a flght attendant with them...what does that say??) which leads to bad flights with them.
I stood by AirNZ and supported them through the hard times, stuck up foir them... But they are not the rpoud NZ carrier they once were.

Have a good day...

Cheers
Mikey
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2251
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:53 pm

Some kind of sources please. Flight crew simply don't count for diddle when it comes to information on the financial state of an airline. And please not any of the "my sister's co-worker's cousin's boss" kinda thing.

When you state a "fact", you have to back it up with some kind or source. Everything I have argued have come from media reports, seemingly trustworthy and traditionally accurate media sources at that (for whatever that is worth).

And I hate to state the obvious, but, well, you are stating the obvious AirNewZealand. ALL airlines are prone to delays. It's the business. Just like all business is prone to change. The thing with Jet Connect is that they seem particularly suseptible to cancellations due to lack of passengers, which, come to think of it, would raise their load factor reportings.
 
777ER
Crew
Topic Author
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:09 pm

AirNewZealand
but have you taken a recent flight with them? They are not the warmest welcome no more! Fact, they are very dissapointing, especially since you have vomit lying and stinking out your cabin for 1 and a half hours!! Yes I have had a recent flight with Air NZ, just before Christmas and I will be having another flight with Air NZ next month. The last flight was to CHC and the next flight will be to CHC. Every time I have flowen with Air NZ the plane has NEVER smelt of vomit. Once the plane has arrived at its arrival airport then the plane is ALWAYS cleaned. The plane that you were catching might have arrived late at your depature airport so the cleaners might not have had time to clean the plane as it has to try and stick to the schedule or else the rest of the day will be chores with delayed flights. With angry passengers wanting a better reason as to why the plane needed a clean. Since I was young I have flowen with Air NZ 18 times. Every flight that I have been I have enjoyed. Everytime I have boarded the plane for a flight the Flight Attendents are more then willing to help EVERY passengers, this includes young children and the elderly. By what you have said makes it sound like that the Flight Attendents don't care about their passengers when they do care for their passengers.

cabin crew hate their jobs (Was told this by the purser on both flights and warned not to become a flght attendant with them...what does that say??) Do you believe everything that you are told?

they are not the proud NZ carrier they once were
Air NZ has got one of the best reputations in the world for their customer service. Air NZ have been voted time and time again for the best airline in the Pacific because of their customer service.

Fact, Jet connect are serving BNE and SYD from SYD/WLG/CHC on selected flights. Jetconnect are not serving SYD from CHC. This is being served by Qantas B763s. Jetconnect are only flying to BNE and MEL from CHC and only SYD - WLG
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:27 pm

777ER:
One only needs to look at some of the other web sites around (skyt----.com) to know that the general public is not at all impresed. The costcutting that has taken place in ANZ has not only effected the service on board, but also the crew moral.
One perfect example was the 'BOX' meal that was given to Business Class passengers. The worst publicity stunt imaginable. How many preium passengers did ANZ loose to aother carriers. And please don't say 0 because we all know better. The news even made it to firends of mine at LHR!
If the plane that AirNewZealand was catching arrived late blah blah, it is NOT the passengers problem. Sometime while the crew where doing their preflight checks, someone could have been called out to service the fault. It's vomit, not an oil spill. In 2 minutes it can be cleaned up and odourised.
If I too worked for ANZ and only had 24 hour lay overs every time I whent to London I too would start to hate my job.
For an airline that has no "j" sleepers not even in First, no PTV's in economy that had the audacity to serve the now INFAMOUS box lunch to its primium passengers . . . how can you expect us to beleive it is by far the one with the best reputation?? Things have changed. Aairlines have evolved. ANZ was ONCE a great airline but if the jokers at the top don't wake up to themselves things will continue to detirriorate.
Please, please don't take offence to the things I have mentioned. They are not personal attacks. Merely an observation.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:58 am

Yes but Air NZ admitted its mistake over serving premium pax meals in boxex across the Tasman. They changed back to the former service just a few weeks later. So, ummm, what's your point? They got it wrong. They admitted it. They corrected the error.

Anyway, this post has gone waaaaaay off topic.
 
rongotai
Posts: 350
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:39 am

This is the problem with the personal anecdote approach to these questions (And I am as bad as the next person at this). Although I choose QF first at present I am still gold on NZ as well. I have had absolutely no bad experiences with NZ out of 35 flights in the past 12 months. Similarly I have had 15-20 overseas visitors coming in by NZ and all of them have praised the service they got.

We also had a service experience that can only be called absolutely superb when my daughter in law had a family loss and had to fly WLG-NYC at four hours' notice. In that situation QF were useless and uninterested despite having a flight with seats available AKL-LAX (because they had a full flight WLG-AKL). NZ had no economy seats so put her in Business at an Economy fare. NZ also had a full flight WLG-AKL, but shifted a staff member into the jump seat to accommodate her. On return out of LAX they upgraded her again because the LAX gate agent had a note on her reason for travel.

True enough about the cabins - but they are just about to spend $25 million to fix that.

Also remember - NZ are making profits, filling planes and getting 'buy' ratings from stock analysts. so they must be doing something right.
 
aussie747
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:40 am

To 777ER,

Some services between SYD-CHC are operated by the 733's Jet connect fleet, more recently they have shifted away from this, and have begun to use 743's and 763's. So I guess you and AirNewZealand are right.

 
airnewzealand
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:53 pm

Here we go...

1. Yes you are correct Aussie747, but this is only because it is high season. Come March, the Jetconnect flights will start back up again!

2. Sorry if i didnt make my self clear 777ER, but i was flying RAR-AKL.... 4.30 hour flight....we were up in the air for around 2 hours, cabin crew all went to sleep Bar one... It was new years, a guy vomitted in our cabin, and none of them cleaned it up until we were coming in for landing!!

3. By all means i am not saying that AirNZ is the worst carrier out or that the crews are bad. My flight over had a great flight attendant, but the crews are NO LONGER what they used to be. (I still think NZ is better than QF, TG SQ by all means)

4. Like you i recently did a AKLWLG flight return, AKLWLG On origin and WLGAKL on NZ!! The NZ crew onboard that flight were awesome! As i would expect of NZ! And they enjoyed their job throughly, but DOM and Intl flight attendants are in a totally different bag!!

5. Yes, i do believe what i am told, especially from someones mouth who looks after the rest of the crew onboard and all of the passengers.
It is true that Pursers set the flights for all the other crew onboard, ask any flight attendant out their. Oh and AirNZ have apparently reduced their crewing staff onboard...

6. AirNZ have not won many awards since the year 1999...QF, Air Tahiti Nui and Polynesian are all going beyond them...I mean PH! Come on...they are a bad airline we all know that!!

7. Agreed AeroKiwi, we have gone way off topic...and im sorry if i have offended your beloved NZ, but i was once like you 777ER... but i have woken up and relised the true airnz!! But everyone has their own opinions and i respect yours 100%.

8. Oh and rumour has it that Jetconnect are startng a base in CHC.

Origin will not be around for much longer unless they strike a deal with Virgin Pacific....

Cheers
Mike
 
TG992
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RE: Qantas Drops Origin Pacific

Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:05 pm

You had one or two bad flights, so that means the Air NZ crew are 'no longer what they used to be?'  Insane I wonder if the fact JetConnect has suddenly become a great airline in your books has anything to do with the fact they're the company your next cabin crew interview is for?

For gods sake, this is turning into farce. I'm absolutely embarassed to be born in the same country as some of the posters on this thread. And I'm seriously considering not bothering to post here and sticking to the other website where there is some level of thought and cohesion put into topics, and where children don't infest the place.


[Edited 2004-01-26 11:07:49]
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