ryder10uk
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Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 4:35 am

Does anyone know whether AA will return to DAL i know Legend Airlines had a load of new Gates builtthere then went bust!! what a waste of space, will any airline take over??
 
ssides
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 4:39 am

The "load" of new gates was only 4 gates, and they didn't even have swinging jetways -- they only aircraft they could accomodate would be DC-9s (and maybe MD-80s).


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Plus, Legend was in a completely new and different terminal, completely on the other side of the airport than the main DAL terminal. When Legend was there, many passengers were confused and often showed up at the main terminal, causing many missed flights and delays. I'm not sure what the terminal is being used for now, but I would assume it might be used someday for private jet travel. I have no idea about this, however.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
jhooper
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 4:47 am

I doubt AA will return; pretty sure they just went to 'compete' with Legend. Since Legend is gone - no competition necessary!

The Legend terminal was used with Delta Connection for a time.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
texan
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:06 am

The North Concourse, which in theory could hold 9 or so gates, and the East Concourse would be of more immediate interest to any airlines wishing to initiate operations into DAL. The NC is connected to the main terminal building, which is right off Mockingbird Lane, very close to Interstate 35 and the North Dallas Tollway. The City of Dallas owns the North Concourse, though, and do not really want to allow airlines to fly out of there. Moreover, there are no jetways, and the concourse has not been renovated in a few decades. It would cost a good amount of money to completely renovate the concourse and make it into an area into which airlines would want to fly. The East Councourse, aside from the 2 gates leased by Continental Express, was recently demolished or set to be demolished as a sign from the City of Dallas that there will not be increased operations from Love Field.
The main problem with Legend's terminal is that it is off of Lemmon and Lovers on the East side of the airport. The rental car companies and shops are all located in the main terminal and West Concourse, with the exception of the coffee and magazine shop in the East Concourse for Continental Express. The Legend Terminal has no amenities and is in an area that is hard to see from the road and can be hard to get out of.
American has no desire to return to DAL. They have all the gates, space, and revenue they need operating from DFW. Legend caused AA to divert resources, costing AA a good amount of money and consternation. The F100s they flew were pretty nice, however.
The main lessons to be taken away from Legend's attempt at DAL, though, are 1) that American will move in to squash you like a bug if you try to enter DAL; 2) even if they cannot squash you service wise, they will flood you with lawsuits and nearly bankrupt you before you can even get off the ground; and 3) the Dallas business community, as much as they have talked about wanting lower airfares and more competition, will not truly support a new interstate carrier flying out of DAL. Legend's planes were sometimes full, but they offered deep deep discounts online, meaning the flights were usually low yield. When one can fly first class DAL-LAX for $150, it is not necessarily a sign of good things to come.
I liked Legend, am a big fan of DAL, and wish that the Wrong Amendment would be repealed faster than an Alex Rodriguez to the Red Sox trade rumor. However, with that not being likely, DAL will remain WN's stomping grounds (great terminal, best airline, convenient to get to, fly out of there to HOU, ABQ, ELP, TUL, and MAF) with limited competition from Continental Express and that is it. With the Cities of Dallas and Fort Worth, American, Delta, and Southwest all against repealing the Wright Amendment, a discussion on the expansion of service from DAL is, unfortunately, moot.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
AmtrakGuy
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:55 am

Texan (and others),

Do you think the City of Dallas may change their mind about against Wright Amendment? It been years since this was last amended and different people are running the City of Dallas (and the City Council). I would think that this whole Wright Amendment is outdated and unnecessary now.

I would hope some type of compromise -- like allowing airlines (Southwest) to start new routes -- like 2 or 3 routes a year until the whole Wright Amendments is repealed. Or allow Southwest to do direct (with one stop) flight like from DAL to BWI with one stop in HOU.

Dave
 
goingboeing
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:01 am

The city of Dallas never really wanted the Wright Amendment. You need to talk to the city fathers of Fort Worth about changing that...and they don't seem too inclined to change it anytime soon.
 
AeroArgentina
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:23 am

"With the Cities of Dallas and Fort Worth, American, Delta, and Southwest all against repealing the Wright Amendment"

Why would Southwest not want to get rid of the wright ammendmant?
 
jcs17
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:29 am

The city of Dallas would benefit from the Wright Amendment being lifted, they have no problem with more carriers coming into DAL. Its just more income for them.

The city of Ft. Worth is essentially the bitch of Metroplex aviation. It was the city of Ft. Worth that brought a lawsuit against the city of Dallas when DFW was proposed to be built to have it moved further west, to at the time in between the borders of Dallas and Ft. Worth. Ft. Worth and its state and national representatives are what keeps the Wright Amendment from being lifted or ammended (to include connecting traffic outside the Wright Amendment zone to DAL). Its a real shame because the vast majority of local traffic is from east of DFW. Ft. Worthless is a dead city, there is very little growth, and what is growing there are non-technology businesses. AMR and Ft. Worth are in bed together to keep the Wright Amendment from being lifted because Ft. Worth gets a cut of DFW income and it is a real hassle monetarily for AA to have to drive out every competitor from DAL. Thus, AA built a maintenance center at AFW.

Also, if I am not mistaken, there were other airports around Dallas that FedEx was looking to build a regional hub at. When Ft. Worth got wind of this, they threatened suit against FedEx and various GA Dallas airports so that the regional hub would be built at Ft. Worth Alliance--which is a very long distance from where most of FedEx's business is...the Dallas area.

At DAL, Continental Express does very well with its DAL-IAH runs, its up to 7x-8x daily on weekdays and 4-5x on weekends. Its fantastic for people like me, who live only 10 minutes away from DAL (the same amount of time it takes to get to Dallas from DAL). The parking is cheaper, I don't have to get on the freeway, and getting through the airport is a breeze. The only problem is that CO doesn't promote this service at all through advertising. The same thing could be said about DL's ATL service before they pulled out. If DL travellers in Atlanta knew that there were flights between ATL-DAL, the flights would still be in existance.

I'm hoping that eventually, CO will upgrade to 737 service to Love Field during peak hours. Those flights are completely packed during weekdays.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
jeffrey1970
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:31 am

To change the Wright ammendment is not up to the city fathers of Dallas or Fort Worth, it is up to the US Congress.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
texan
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:31 am

The City of Dallas was and is in favor of the Wright Amendment. When Southwest attempted to stay at DAL when DFW opened, Dallas and Fort Worth sued WN in an attempt to force them to move to DFW. Now, however, not only do the cities of Dallas and Fort Worth not want the Wright Amendment changed (for differing reasons: Fort Worth thinks DAL will steal traffic from DFW and Dallas because of pressure from residents around the airport, especially in Highland Park and University Park), but WN does not want it changed. If DAL opens up, that means that carriers will be free to challenge WN's monopoly status at DAL. Not that they are scared of being driven out of any markets, but the people at WN know a good deal when they see one, and controlling 96% of an airport's traffic is an extraordinarily good deal.
In the end, though, it does not matter whether or not Dallas and Fort Worth come to any agreements. It is, unfortunately, a federal matter, having been brought into law by former Speaker of The House of Representatives Jim Wright from (you guessed it!) Fort Worth. In 1998, The Shelby Act (after Richard Shelby of Alabama) was passed, clarifying some of the language in the Act and adding Mississippi, Alabama, and Kansas to the states airlines are allowed to fly to from DAL.
Now to get into the actual opinion part of this: DAL should be opened up. It is closer to the CBD, SMU, and many parts of the city than is DFW. It will allow Dallasites a greater choice in travel to more cities than is currently allowed, and it will give us lower fares to cities like STL, FLL, and MCI. By increasing the flights out of DAL, more revenue will be created for the airport and therefore for the city. More revenue for the city means that we can improve the streets, schools, light rail line (which is supposed to open to Love Field from the CBD in 2009...what perfect timing for the amendment to be repealed!) and other city and social services to make Dallas an even more attractive place for more people and businesses to live. It will bring more people and businesses to the CBD and Arena areas, leading to increased residential living in those areas, allowing, once more, for more tax dollars to be raised to support the city.
Many who are against opening up DAL claim two big reasons: 1) noise; and 2) it will steal traffic from DFW. Thankfully, both of these arguments can be argued in one fell swoop. Currently, only the Legend Terminal and gate 26 in the North Concourse are ready for service. That is only 5 gates adding, at most, 50 +- 5 daily flights. If the entire North Concourse is redesigned and 9 gates are in use 1-2 years after the Wright Amendment is passed, that adds, at most, 80 more flights per day. However, it is very unlikely that the airport will fill all of the gates extraordinarily quickly. It will be a more gradual process, and planes will mostly fly to key business destinations. There is already a curfew in effect for DAL which prohibits certain types of night operations, and noise procedures are in effect. Expansion at the East Concourse could not occur because it is no more. That means that over time, up to 130 more daily flights could occur at DAL. Most of these would likely be operated by WN. However, after those 130 flights are used up, there is no place to expand. DAL will reach its maximum capacity very quickly. Airlines will not have to switch operations from DFW to DAL because 1) DAL is almost all O&D traffic, while AA and DL are mostly connecting traffic at DFW; and 2) the increase in population and demand for flights will increase dramatically between now and the time everything at DAL could be ready. The DFW metro area is forecast to have around 15 million people by 2020 all served by only one airport that can take people out of the state and the states immediately surrounding us. DAL will provide some relief for DFW, while giving people who won't want to drive from the east and south sides of Dallas a much needed alternative airport, one that will not take an hour or more to get to. Especially since there will be construction on Interstate 635 until the end of time, as they will be attempting to expand it dramatically in order to hold the increased amount of traffic that will be using it.
In conclusion, opening up DAL makes sense for Dallas, its people, and the Metroplex in general. It will not add excessive noise nor will it steal traffic away from DFW due to capacity restraints. However, it is unlikely to happen because of local, state, and national politics.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
SWAFA30
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:32 am

Why would Southwest not want to get rid of the wright ammendmant?

With the Wright Ammendment in place, we essentially have Love Field all to ourselves with no significant competition.

 
texan
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:35 am

Jcs17:
Continental cannot upgrade the service on the route because of the contract they signed with DFW Airport while it was being built. In it, it is stated that no airline which signs the contract can operate into DAL at any time. AA sued Continental over their using ExpressJet to fly into DAL before service was started. They lost because ExpressJet was deemed to be a separate, nonsignatory entity. That opened the door for ASA service to ATL. AA was granted an exemption to compete with Legend.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:42 am

I think time and economics has proved that DAL is really none more desirable than DFW. It's not Dallas' Laguardia or Midway, and despite attempts by AA, CO, and DL to make inroads at DAL, they have all failed and pulled out, with the exception of a few CO flights to IAH. Even if the Wright amendment was lifted, I would not expect a huge rush to switch to DAL, even by LCCs.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jcs17
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:25 am

The City of Dallas was and is in favor of the Wright Amendment. When Southwest attempted to stay at DAL when DFW opened, Dallas and Fort Worth sued WN in an attempt to force them to move to DFW. Now, however, not only do the cities of Dallas and Fort Worth not want the Wright Amendment changed (for differing reasons: Fort Worth thinks DAL will steal traffic from DFW and Dallas because of pressure from residents around the airport, especially in Highland Park and University Park), but WN does not want it changed. If DAL opens up, that means that carriers will be free to challenge WN's monopoly status at DAL. Not that they are scared of being driven out of any markets, but the people at WN know a good deal when they see one, and controlling 96% of an airport's traffic is an extraordinarily good deal.

WN is perfectly happy at DAL and there really has been no threat of them moving to DFW. Now that WN is at DAL, Dallas would sue them if they threatened to leave the airport because of lost revenue. That being said, Dallas might have mixed feelings about the amendment being lifted because they might fear WN leaving. I also wouldn't count on any problems from Park Cities residents, really the only people that noise from DAL impacts is people living on the westside of the Tollway (not HP/UP). In fact, nearly all the traffic avoids flying over the Park Cities anyway. Approaches and takeoffs occur over low-income housing and commercial property...not a problem.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
jcs17
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:25 am

Besides, if there was really a problem with noise, don't you think that it would have already been voiced over WN's use of the 732?
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
william
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:38 am

What are you talking about,they have ALWAYS complained about the noise. Just because its not on the news doesn't mean the residents have changed their feelings on the matter.
 
sllevin
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:54 am

Guys,

I hate to say it, but you find me ANY airport in a decent metro area (i.e., not in the middle of Montana, where there's NO air service) that has residents supporting expansion, and I'll buy you an expensive dinner.

I bet that if you held a blind referendum on CLOSING Dallas-Love, it would garner significant support. Any proposal to build it up more would be laughed at.

"It would bring more carriers to Dallas" has to be the weakest argument I've heard. After all, Airtran is building up already at DFW, and others are there already. Who else is going to come to the table that can't fly to DFW? Be realistic.

Steve
 
goingboeing
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:58 am

With the Wright Ammendment in place, we essentially have Love Field all to ourselves with no significant competition

And you know something...without the right ammendment, you still wouldn't have any "significant competition". AA can't open up a second hub 12 miles down the road, and they can't depend strictly on connecting traffic to fill their planes at DFW - so they'd most likely stay put. Delta's the same way. The other airlines might send their flights over to DAL, but I doubt it...It'd be pretty much like HOU or MDW -
 
texan
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:21 am

Sllevin:
I probably should have made myself clearer. It would bring more carriers to Love Field. DFW has all the major domestic carriers as well as a good (and hopefully growing) number of international carriers. What I probably should have said is that opening up DAL would provide more choices for people living in East and South Dallas as well as Midtown and the Park Cities. Sorry about not making it clear Smile

Jcs17:
I also by no means meant that anybody would try to force out WN, and WN will not leave DAL if it is eventually opened up, they will simply expand into the North Concourse as well. And the Park Cities residents complain about eveything and have an organization against opening up DAL to more flights, as well as just anti-DAL in general. You are right, basically all flights avoid the Park Cities, but the potential for increased road traffic and noise pollution is a big stickling point with them. Wal-Mart was interested in opening up a Supercenter near Lemmon and Mockingbird at the old Sym's location, but the Park Cities residents muscled up and put enough political pressure on the Dallas City Council that Wal-Mart was not allowed to move in there.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
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ramprat74
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:04 pm

In this picture. Is the North concourse the one with all the buildings next to it? What concourse was Braniffs back in the day? Were there any other concourses at DAL?


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jcs17
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:04 pm

You are right, basically all flights avoid the Park Cities, but the potential for increased road traffic and noise pollution is a big stickling point with them. Wal-Mart was interested in opening up a Supercenter near Lemmon and Mockingbird at the old Sym's location, but the Park Cities residents muscled up and put enough political pressure on the Dallas City Council that Wal-Mart was not allowed to move in there.

Highland and University Park border the Tollway, they don't come close to Mockingbird and Lemmon. You can tell where each one ends because the signs lose the UP logo in University Park's case, or they are not blue in Highland Park's case. The pressure was applied by other local Dallas residents.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
texan
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:07 pm

Highland and University Park border the Tollway, they don't come close to Mockingbird and Lemmon. You can tell where each one ends because the signs lose the UP logo in University Park's case, or they are not blue in Highland Park's case. The pressure was applied by other local Dallas residents.

Most assuredly, HP and UP do end at the Tollway. However, they do not want increased traffic along Mockingbird; they don't want the types of people who use Walmart in their neighborhoods; and every time anybody talks about Love Field, the HP and UP citizens come out swinging. Other locals have applied pressure, but HP and UP are the most vocal and the ones with the best financial backing. Never said what they do makes sense, but since when have Park Cities people ever made sense? Smile

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
jsnww81
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:20 am

To answer Ramprat's question:

Yes, the North Concourse is the one wtih all the buildings along it (two GA hangars on the north side, and a Southwest - formerly Muse Air - overnight hangar on the south side). Before DFW opened, it was occupied by Southwest, Delta, Eastern and Frontier. Delta had nine upper-level gates with jetways, while the other airlines all used airstairs for boarding.

Today most of the concourse has been converted to offices, with Southwest using the old Delta upper-level gates as a training facility for new employees. The Dallas Aviation Department has offices in the far gates, which are worthless anyhow, as the hangars were built in front of them. If airline operations do return to the North Concourse, I'd imagine the whole thing would be demolished and rebuilt - right now there's a LOT of asbestos in the concourse, and I recall reading that removing it would be more expensive than just starting over.

Braniff and Texas International flew out of the East Concourse extension (basically a separate terminal) that opened in 1968. That area was demolished in 2002. Continental operates from two renovated gates in the East Concourse - interestingly enough, those are the two gates CO used before the move to DFW in 1974. American also used these gates, but was scheduled to move to three brand-new gates on September 11, 2001. Obviously that never happened (AA suspended DAL service on 9/11 and never returned) but the gates are still there, freshly renovated and waiting for a tenant.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:32 am

Besides, if there was really a problem with noise, don't you think that it would have already been voiced over WN's use of the 732?

Actually, SWA's 732's have been hushkitted and they are quieter than the business jets (that some HP and UP residents utilize) that operate out of there. Plus....the 732's will be gone most likely this year.
 
redraider
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:06 am

It's my understanding that Love Field will actually expand the number of gates to 32 per the Master Plan approved by the Dallas City Council in 2001 with the aim of turning DAL into a regional hub.

http://www.dallaslovefieldmasterplan.com/Main.htm
My wife can't wrestle, but you should see her box.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:46 am

Just a couple of questions and points, for what they're worth:

What jurisdiction to Park Cities residents have in the matter? The airport is located in Dallas, owned and operated by Dallas. Other than lawsuits, what standing do the Park Cities folks have to have any say in what is done at Love? How do they "exert political pressure" on people they can't vote for? If Dallas were to want to expand Love, they could say, go ahead, sue us.

It seems to me very unlikely that other carriers would enter a "Free Love," and if they did it would only be a minimal presence like some network carriers have at MDW. It's also not like DFW is on one far side of the Metroplex and DAL on another; HOU and IAH, for instance, are at opposite ends of greater Houston.

Finally, I don't buy that WN is happy living with the Wright Amendment. Sure, the status quo keeps most competitors out, who wants to compete with a 7.5-cent CASM on short stage-length routes? But DAL could have such huge profit potential if WN could fly to BWI, MDW, LAX, PHX, STL, etc. And other carriers would likely get their lunch eaten if they tried to compete with WN from DAL on such routes. It seems to me that WN must be well aware of the profit potential of Love, and no one likes to miss out on profit.

But, as I've argued before, the cost of getting the WA repealed would be very high. The Shelby Amendment cost WN the JAN station to please then-Majority Leader Lott. We can be pretty sure that key senators would extract at least one, probably two, WN stations at markets not atop WN's list, in order to kill this ugly, stinking piece of anticonsumer Congressional privelege altogether.

There's still lots of easier money for WN to make elsewhere, so it seems to me they may not be ready to go after the WA. Parker has already made clear that Kelleher's gentleman's agreement not to go after the WA doesn't apply to him. WN just doesn't seem to want to do it right now.

Jim

Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
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ramprat74
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:19 am

Jsnww81

Thanks for you help.
 
jcs17
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:30 am

What jurisdiction to Park Cities residents have in the matter? The airport is located in Dallas, owned and operated by Dallas. Other than lawsuits, what standing do the Park Cities folks have to have any say in what is done at Love? How do they "exert political pressure" on people they can't vote for? If Dallas were to want to expand Love, they could say, go ahead, sue us.

Just for a little background...

The Park Cities are interesting to say the very least. It is the most affluent area of the Metroplex by leaps and bounds. That being said, they are considered to be part of Dallas. Highland and University Park are bordered by Dallas on all sides. All of my mail at home (my parents live in University Park) gets sent to a Dallas address, but the district has its own sanitation crews, its own local government, its own schools, and its own police force.

The Parkies did not have as much influence as one would like to think in the blocking of the Wal-Mart development plan. In fact, it was the Dallas Plan Commission that shot the idea down saying the plan was essentially "an oversized gorilla." The residents that were mainly opposed to the building of the Walmart were residents of the surrounding neighborhoods (not the Park Cities). That being said, I can't understand why they would be opposed to it. That section of town could be described as run-down and low-income. It actually surprises me that they were able to block the construction as the city has shown its muscle when building the CityPlace Target several years ago despite pressure from local residents (before all the nice $1000 a month apartments were built next door).

You actually hear very little from Park Cities residents regarding Love Field, the noise impact is very, very little. And the road traffic from Love Field has very little impact on the Park Cities. Its not convenient at all to have to sit through a million traffic lights on Lovers and Mockingbird to get to the airport. Your average Parky has little regard for Love Field--except for the ones whose Lears are parked there  Big grin (which is definitely a minority) and the vast majority use DFW (and AA) for all of their travel.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
jsnww81
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RE: Dallas Love DAL

Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:26 am

Jcs17 is right... the Park Cities aren't directly impacted by Love Field noise, much as some of them might like to claim they are.

The runways don't point towards the Parkies at all... although it's possible to see WN 737s taking off and landing from various points in the Park Cities, the ambient jet noise is very, very negligible.

In fact, the neighborhoods most directly impacted by jet noise (Maple Lawn on the south and Bachman on the north) don't really seem to mind. Of course, those areas are so run down that jet noise is the least of their problems... although the city was successful in running the last of the strip clubs out of Bachman.

I agree with Jcs on the Mockingbird Wal-Mart issue. ANY new development would be a huge asset for that area. There used to be a Syms store there (in an old Kroger space) although I think that's closed now too. As you go east on Mockingbird, however, the neighborhood immediately improves as soon as you cross Inwood Road.

Supposedly the area around DAL was one of Dallas' most vibrant and dynamic prior to the opening of DFW. All the airport workers lived nearby... the apartment complexes in Bachman were full of all the young flight attendants, and Northwest Highway was lined with nightclubs and trendy bars. Kind of sad to think of how far the area has fallen.

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