maiznblu_757
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GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:14 pm

I know Grand Rapids needs to expand before it could support any new airlines, but, how well do you think F9 would do with a couple daily GRR-DEN flights? There are no nonstop flights west of DFW/MSP from Grand Rapids. This might open things up to the west.

UAL would also do well I think. They already serve GRR with a mix of A319/A320/737's to ORD.







 
syncmaster
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:48 pm

I wouldn't count on F9 doing it until another LCC does (i.e. B6) especially since UA would start the same route, and I'm sure down the road NW would too.
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Sun Jan 25, 2004 11:50 pm

As a former midwest native, I seem to recall that UA had nonstops to DEN from a lot of cities around the Great Lakes,ie: FWA,SBN, TOL and I think GRR at one time.

Seems to me that an opportunity exists here for RJ's to DEN particularly now with the restictions at ORD. However AA seems to have thought of this first with its RJ's to DFW from a number of these locations.
 
access-air
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Sun Jan 25, 2004 11:59 pm

It all depends.

Back in the day, before airlines went hub and spoke crazy, United flew "big" 727s and 737s from cities such as Moline, South Bend, Ft. Wayne, etc.. out to Denver. A 1979 UAL timetable shows such flights... Most people hate changing planes thru Ohare and if GRR had a nonstop link to Denver via Frontier using their new regional partner it just might work.
UA has biggger fish to fry I'm not so sure that Jet Blue would go there...
Just my opinion....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
capt078
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:22 am

i think the only chance would be an rj flight to a western city. aa flies erj's to dfw, and continental flies the erj-145xr to houston. the problem of course, is that there is not much of a call for nonstops to the west from grand rapids. northwest has 8 or 9 frequencies all through the mcnamara terminal at detroit connecting with dozens of western flights. add to this connections through msp, mem, ord (aa and ual), mdw (ata), stl and dfw (aa), cle, ewr, and iah (continental), atl and cvg (delta), pit (us), and mke (midwest), and these pretty much satisfy demand. furthermore, grand rapids sees much less mainline traffic than it used to. continental, aa, us airways, ata, and midwest all use regionals, delta uses regionals and one 737-200, ual uses mainly crj's and bae-146s, along with two 737s, and even northwest runs a couple arj's to detroit.

the best argument for the need for western nonstops is the overcapacity at chicago. however, whether or not this will result in western nonstops is in question.
 
CALMSP
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:42 am

DEN flights would do well out of GRR, maybe two a day. DEN is the 2nd most destination point out of GRR.
 
sprxflySWA
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:25 am

I would think a nonstop to Las Vegas would be the most likely of routes.

As for old mainline flights, I was looking at a July 1,1970 United timetable, and from Youngstown,OH (YNG), they had: 4 NONSTOPS all the way to Akron/Canton (CAK),2 nonstops to ORD,3 nonstops to Newark (EWR),1 n/s to Philadelphia,and 5 nonstops to Pittsburgh.
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:29 am

I wanna see Southwest at GRR. That would be good  Smile

FB05
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
sprxflySWA
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:31 am

I will second and third that!!!
 
CALMSP
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:44 am

no, we dont need those ugly gold planes in GRR!!!!!!!
 
azo
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:57 am

Capt078-

DL actually has two 737's right now, one to CVG and one to ATL.

NW is all mainline to DTW, no Mesaba or Express. Only one ARJ and one CRJ to MSP as well. MEM is also mainline now, as well as TPA and MCO.

UA is currently running three mainline flights to ORD (737), not two.

It might not be what it used to, but its more than you think.
Kalamazoozoozoozoozoozoozoo
 
wedgetail737
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:02 am

The only airline that would be gutsy enough to fly nonstop to LAS would be Allegiant Air. But they already serve LAN. How far is GRR from LAN?

In terms of F9, I would think they would they inaugurate service to DTW before any other secondary airports.

Doesn't GRR get service from Chicago Express?
 
syncmaster
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:04 am

Yes, GRR get's service from Chicago Express, WMUPilot should be able to fill you in on that Big grin
 
wedgetail737
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:19 am

Is Chicago Express considered as part of the LCC pack, since they are associated with ATA??? It would be nice to see Air Tran fly to GRR.
 
CALMSP
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:21 am

i dont think F9 would fly to DTW first, why jump into a market and compete with two major airlines. If they fly into GRR they will not have competition with anyone, all they will have is steal people from UAL, since most pax of UAL flights seem to be going to DEN.
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:23 am

LAN is approximately 70 miles East of GRR.

IIll 4th the Southwest idea..

Markets I could see Southwest serving from GRR:
BWI
MCO
HOU
MDW
LAS
PHX

 
maiznblu_757
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:23 am

Is Chicago Express's maint. base still @ GRR?
 
PVD757
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:24 am

I'd vote positive for F9 to DEN. A 318 to start the market and upgrade it to the 19 if it does well...
 
wedgetail737
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:27 am

CALMSP...F9 is building a focus city at LAX. I would think that would be more risky than opening DTW.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:28 am

Does GRR meet the population base that WN requires?
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:32 am

Grand Rapids city Population is 190,000. Kent County has 550,000. There are a lot of peple from smaller cities near Grand Rapids using that airport. I am sure it could support SWA.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:39 am

Send a letter to the CEO of WN and see what he has to say. I used to do that when I was younger about OAK. Sometimes it's interesting what they have to say. ICT has been trying for years to woo WN in. But it can barely support F9 (sort of) and FL as it is.

With a population of 300,000, it doesn't meet WN's population base and I personally don't think it could support WN.
 
capt078
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:55 am

AZO: i stand corrected, though their schedules fluctuate.

on a different note, jetblue listed grr as potential future city. i emailed jetblue and this was confirmed, though no absolute decision has been made.
 
sprxflySWA
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:30 pm

CALMSP,
Okay, we'll only schedule the repainted and special scheme planes into GRR.

You could also add in the Lansing population of 120,000. I am sure there would be folks that would drive the 70 miles to travel via WN. Plus Muskegon County's 170,000,etc.

Being centrally located in West-Central Michigan, I am sure there are enough people to sustain WN's service. But only time will tell.
 
WMUPilot
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:36 pm

Yes, the only LCC service to/from GRR is Chicago Express (dba ATA Connection). Chicago Express doesn't have the maintenance base at GRR anymore. The base was moved to SBN once the new SF340's came online. I have a feeling that the next possible LCC you will see in GRR is Jet Blue. AirTran would be competing head-to-head with Delta. Really no big competition with ATA. It maybe some time before you see Southwest in GRR, if ever. On average 400,000 passengers use GRR to travel a month. The metro population of western michigan is about 700,000 people. That includes Ottawa, Kent, and Allegan County.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
venuscat2
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:50 pm

As far as I can see, WN is NOT coming to GRR anytime soon. We're smacked between MDW and DTW, and until this is such a thing as Southwest Express (which I doubt there ever will be) CRJ to whisk people to MDW, don't hold your breath. I don't see Southwest being able to compete on any of the current (nonstop) routes served. The thing is that people around here are very loyal to certain carriers (particularly NW). Plus, from what I hear, the airport administration isn't very good at convincing people that they will be successful here. The only way that I see WN being successful here is trying to compete with NW on non-stop flights to Florida, or starting new service out west. The only problem with this is that I'm thinking that the primary market for flights there would be business travelers most of the time, and I believe that business travelers around here would be very reluctant to try anything than what they are used to. So basically, they would be most successful on longer haul flights to vacation destinations. I'm not saying that I don't want to see them here; I would be thrilled. I just don't think we will be seeing them.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:59 pm

**i dont think F9 would fly to DTW first, why jump into a market and compete with two major airlines. If they fly into GRR they will not have competition with anyone, all they will have is steal people from UAL, since most pax of UAL flights seem to be going to DEN.**


You won't see Frontier at DTW unless United's bankruptcy closes the DEN United hub, but they would close IAD first.

DTW-DEN is over saturated- NW, UA and Spirit are already on that route.

 
uadc8contrail
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:05 pm

look at bmi,,,,didnt bmi biz people get together and pony up some cash for f9 to do bmi-den...1 stop in oma ...but it beats going to ord or stl.....money talks.....and subsidized routes are cash cows for some airlines.....
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:11 pm

Venus,
I dont think anyone in here expects SWA will be serving GRR anytime soon. So, you are not special in that regard.


I could see F9 or UAL flying nonstop to DEN in the next couple years though.

 
F9Fan
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:41 pm

I keep seeing comments from F9 CEO Jeff Potter about wanting to serve DTW, BOS and, on occasion, PIT. I don't see DEN-GRR, except for regional jet service.

F9Fan
 
syncmaster
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:56 pm

I can also confirm an email from JetBlue about GRR being a possible new route...probably not until the E190's start coming in, I don't see a profitable A320 doing GRR-JFK, although I might be wrong.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:44 pm

I see in GRR's future:

Air Tran Jet Connect (Air Willy) CRJ's ATL-GRR

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Manas Barooah



Frontier Jet Express CRJ's (Mesa or Horizon) DEN-GRR

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jason Whitebird


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Art Brett



& JetBlue E190's JFK-GRR

---------
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
B4REAL
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:08 am

In my opinion, GRR could only support a single Westerly flight daily - morning departure West, late afternoon arrival from West.

I think the most likely routes we'd see are:

GRR-DEN on an RJ
GRR-SLC on a CRJ-700
GRR-PHX on a LCC 1 flight a day

Problem is, airlines don't want to put service to a city a 1x frequency a day, even if supplementing their existing routes. So, it isn't really a good fit. Especially routes to ORD and DTW so quick and habitual for GRR customers - and MSP is going that way anyways, they would prefer it this way, as GRR is disgustingly NW loyal.
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LambertMan
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:25 am

Uadc8contrail, you are quite right about the BMI flight. Back in the 90's local business leaders from State farm insurance (largest insurance corp in nation), Mitsubishi Co., and Country Insurance (nations 34th largest insurance corp to my knowledge) all thought they needed a business connection to the west with the every expanding state farm taking a greater role in the west. The flight was routed through OMA, and to my knowledge did well for a short while then fell off as there weren't enough pax to justify a 732 on a route like that. BTW, those companies I named right there are the reason why they have FL to ATL.
As far as GRR goes, I think that Frontier Jet Express would be great for GRR. Maybe something like a twice daily flight. I'm glad Mesa is out as the Jet Express carrier for Frontier. Man, Mesa was a complete mess in STL, it was unbelievable.
 
luv2fly
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:27 am

B4real

Having lived almost all of my life in Michigan you have hit the nail on the head.

Maybe, and this is just a maybe if B6 does come in, you might see some interest by other carriers just because B6 has started service.

Also like others have pointed out with DTW and MDW having WN I really do not see them doing GRR. Most likely they already are getting those price sensitive customers who are driving to catch there WN flight.

You can cut the irony with a knife
 
B4REAL
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:14 am

Luv2fly:

Thanks for agreeing! I guess you are not in MI now. I am, but am originally from Ohio.

One other note, I also think WN's model would just not work in GRR. What I mean is that WN will not go into a market with only one route (GRR-MDW for example).

That route is the most logical, but GRR-Chicago has too many seats (UA, AEagle, TZ Express).

So, WN would have to hope for better destinations like BNA, BWI, MCI, other places that make GRR a flop-opp (flopped opportunity). Further, if WestMI customers Really want the WN experience for a non-stop flight to Vegas, I think they'd drive to DTW for it.

I am curious on the B6 express situation, and the local airport chat group brought this up that GRR would need more gates. Well, that is not true, the airport needs to just use the gates it has more efficiently.

I think small and large (but not middle sized) airports like GRR on the small side and LAS on the big side - common thing is that they are mostly O&D traffic - would be best utilized as CUGS and CUCS - Common use gate service and common use checkin services. LAS does this now I think. European airports have been doing this for years. Take GRR's 11 gates and look at the number of flights, and what the gates could really turn flights in, and we will see that it is about 40% utilized.

Further, I think if we put a single security checkpoint in (reworking the lobby), we could add an efficiency.

This is the abbreviated version, but if we invested a few million dollars in technology - common use ticket counters, common use gates, corresponding support services for that, and security reworking - we would make GRR a more economical airport per flight, and if the economics/fees per flight from an airlines operating costs perspective is more attractive, more carriers, especially the LCC type would show up @ GRR. Now, existing carriers like NW, DL, UA, ... would just add larger a/c or additional frequency to existing desitnations, but the LCC model would work great because it could introduce new carriers and bring in some much needed price competition on some routes from the LCC side.

Thus, back to topic, may warrant an LCC to the West nonstop from GRR.

B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
luv2fly
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:21 am

I was originally from MI and ended up relocating to Ohio for a job, I actually never thought I would be living in Ohio..

Speaking of B6 I really would expect them to go into FNT before GRR myself! And the reasons are.

Can effectively skim off the Suburbs with out being at DTW. Yes NW does have the presence at DTW and a strong one at FNT, it would be less of a cat fight flying FNT to say JFK than it would DTW to JFK. Also like NW and FL have done the point to point Florida flights I could see a daily FNT to FLL round trip.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:43 am

On the B6 topic, they would likely go to FNT with the E190's before DTW.
The problem is, DTW-JFK would be not necessarily going heads up against anyone, but NW does fly DTW-JFK double-daily, and Comair has a single RJ flight to JFK, but competition to LGA. Since DTW-JFK would be nearly all O&D for B6, and due to competition from NW, Spirit, and American Eagle, flights on DTW-LGA are relatively cheap. So why would people fly into JFK when they could just fly to LGA for the same price, hence where all the business passengers would be going. People aren't going to be flying to JFK to make a connection on B6. FNT on the other hand, is more likely as a way to lure the business travel from Oakland County as a more convienent and possibly inexpensive option than DTW. However, NW knows that B6 isn't going to start FNT-JFK with the A320, but I would not be in the least bit surprised to see NW start FNT-LGA DC-9, or possibly CRJ service at some point in the future. The other thing going against B6 at FNT is that the competition is already there. We've got AirTran and now NW running flights to Florida. B6 would probably want to fly to FLL also. FNT could become a rather competitive market. However, the way the industry works is airlines are now going to use their resources where they can get the best return. I'm sure there are plenty of markets higher on the list than FNT, or GRR for any of the LCC's.
 
B4REAL
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:16 am

Right on PSU.DTW.SCE, and a LCC doesn't have the patience to experiment with a market.

Which leads to another point, if an airline (given a flexibility with its union situation) could 'lease' ground, ticket counter, and gate staff services from another carrier at GRR - i.e. B6 'Express' lease services from NW or DL and give the market a try, that may be the way to start service.

B6 @ DTW brings a good point. That would be a tough entry point. Maybe B6 DTW-LAX/LGB/SFO
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
venuscat2
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:38 am

B4Real,
Regarding your common use idea: The only way that I can see anything like this happening would be for an airline to rent out their gate to another airline when it is not being utilized. As far as common ticket counters go, things would be too chaotic. It might work at an airport with very few flights per day (MKG, for example), but when you've got 8 airilnes, all with different operations, things would be crazy. There would be a possibility of an airline contracting their ticket counter operations out to a different airline (similar how to when air canada was at GRR, their passengers checked in with United).
 
B4REAL
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:55 am

Venuscat2, I have to disagree with you. GRR is not a busy airport. How can busier European airports like FCO, ATH, and locally LAS do it?

It is a great opportunity for efficiency, take a look at the NW check in on Monday about 7:00 A.M. and tell me you think that is good. Then look at the idle Skyway rep.

Imagine kiosk islands, counters to handle paper tix and those needing changes.

It is not that tough.

Think about it, are the operations all really that different?
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
B4REAL
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:06 am

Okay, further with my idea... The biggest obstacle is not the dollars needed upfront to make GRR more attractive to more carriers by the common-use model, it is the obstacle of labor groups. I don't know which ground groups are unionized or not, but this would be a major obstacle.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:43 pm

Great discussion guys.

As far as expansion goes, has anyone seen the updated Master Plan? I am just curious if there was anything in the works for a terminal expansion.

At one point in the mid 90's, they were discussing lengthening 26R to be able to handle the larger airliners also.

 
B4REAL
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:49 pm

Chad/Maiz:

I was talking with an airline employee @ GRR and he mentioned a possible RJ concource going from close to where gate A2 goes , chopping up the remote stands that Comair uses and accomodating 4-6 RJ at a time.

I don't think that's necessary, however, I think if we get more flights, then maybe we can get extra gates. We can easily turn gates better and use the empty gate.

BTW> Does anyone know how many a/c overnight @ GRR? I am pretty sure on the first four, not so sure on the bottom?

NW: 4 (?) 2xA319,2xDC-9
DL: 3 3xCRJ
US Express: 1xERJ
UA: 2x737

TZ: 1XSaab?
YX: 1x?
COExp: 1xERJ?
AEagle: 2xERJ?

That is about 15 a/c in a 3 hour window (mornings), arguably the most pax in a 3-hour window, and with the 11 gates, we are no where near short.

[Edited 2004-01-27 05:51:23]
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:51 pm

Username: B4real
From United States, joined Aug 2003, 494 posts, RR: 2



Further, if WestMI customers Really want the WN experience for a non-stop flight to Vegas, I think they'd drive to DTW for it.

Or Lansing...

I should have specified that SWA LAS and PHX from Grand Rapids would only be a weekend service.

 
WMUPilot
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:59 pm

NW: 4 (?) 2xA319,2xDC-9
DL: 3 3xCRJ
US Express: 1xERJ
UA: 2x737

TZ: 1XSaab?
YX: 1x?
COExp: 1xERJ?
AEagle: 2xERJ?


Correct on DL, US, AE, UA

NW depends on the schedule...some times we have all airbus. TZ also depends on the season. At times we've had 3 stay the night. YX also depends, some times 1 some times 2, COex has 2 overnight. 1 ERJ and 1 XRJ.

I haven't heard anything about a new concourse at GRR. Although I wouldn't put it past them, the airport has more money then they know what to do with it. They can't seem to spend it fast enough. They were talking about putting in a new runway just for the hell of it.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:00 am

Brian,
Is that possibly the 26R project?
 
WMUPilot
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:46 am

Yeah i think so. The planned runway was to intersect 26L before 35 and then intersect 35 just east of the fire station. Prolly a 13/31 runway if they were going to put it in. I think that they've scrapped that idea though as the neighbors raised quite a stink over it.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
B4REAL
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:26 am

Well if this is true that they have more moeny than they know what to do with it, this is good!

I'd like to see them gain efficiencies, but if they are all bling-bling, they have no motivation for it.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
WMUPilot
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RE: GRR To Western US- Would Frontier Do Well?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:23 am

Before politicians went bad, sounds like the next Fox show, the founding fathers of the original Grand Rapids Regional Airport set up a type of trust fund for the rent money from the sell of the original land, when the airport moved to it's current location. Now where Steelcase is at on 44th is where the original airport use to be and now Steelcase has to pay rent on the land and that money goes into the trust fund that the city cannot use. It is only for airport use.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel

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