IslandHopperCO
Topic Author
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:09 pm

Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:24 pm

I have a friend in Moscow whom I wish to visit soon, and I talked about flying Aeroflot who has good fares. My friend recommended against it, saying that Aeroflot is lax with rules. He swears that a pilot once let his son fly an Aeroflot jet, and the child crashed it!

Sounds like an urban legend, but he is not one to lie. I looked all over Airdisaster and Aviation Safety websites, but couldn't find out anything. If it's true, does anyone have any links describing the incident?

I will probably fly Aeroflot anyway, but that's a scary story if true.
 
Homeroid
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 4:31 pm

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:29 pm

It is true, sort of. The pilot's son didn't purposely crash it. He was sitting in the captain's seat and the pilot's daughter was in the co-pilot's seat. I think the son accidentally disconnected the autopilot, and the A310 ended up stalling and then entered a spin. The crew almost regained control but didn't, and everyone on board perished.
 
starrion
Posts: 972
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:19 pm

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:31 pm

Actually happened.

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/f-ogqs/photo.shtml

Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
TG992
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2001 12:03 pm

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:31 pm

Date: 03/23/1994
Location: Mezhdurechensk, Russia
Airline: Aeroflot
Aircraft: Airbus A310-300
Registration: F-OGQS
Fatalities/No. Aboard: 75:75

Details: The aircraft crashed after a captain allowed his child to manipulate the controls of the plane. The pilot's 11 year old daughter and 16 year old son were taking turns in the pilot's seat. While the boy was flying, he inadvertently disengaged the autopilot linkage to the ailerons and put the airliner in a bank of 90 degrees which caused the nose to drop sharply. The co-pilot pulled back on the yoke to obtain level flight but the plane stalled. With his seat pulled all the way back, the co-pilot in the right hand seat could not properly control the aircraft. After several stalls and rapid pull-ups the plane went into a spiral descent. In the end the co-pilot initiated a 4.8g pull-up and nearly regained a stable flight path but the aircraft struck the ground in an almost level attitude killing all aboard. The aircraft was named Glinka, after Mikhail Glinka, the father of Russian music.
-
 
TWAMD-80
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:32 pm

I have heard the same thing. The story that I was told was that the pilot let his son come up and fly the jet-I don't recall what kind it was, but anyways the plane ended up crashing killing all onboard. I am not sure how accurate this is though.

TW
Two A-4's, left ten o'clock level continue left turn!
 
ktliem@YVR
Posts: 158
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 3:25 pm

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:35 pm

Sad, but true!

From
"Specific accidents covered here (i.e. the book Air Disasters) include the Aeroflot A310 which crashed enroute to Hong Kong, with the pilot's son occupying the pilot seat."

Source:

Air Disaster (Vol. 3) By: MacArthur Job
Paperback - 188 pages
Published by: Australian Aviation
Publication Date: February 1999
Dimensions (in inches): 0.35 x 10.89 x 8.29
ISBN: 187567134X

http://www.plant-maintenance.com/books/187567134X.shtml
 
POSITIVE RATE
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:31 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:07 pm

Yep it's certainly true, i read about it in Air Disaster vol. 3. The Captain in fact first let his daughter fly the plane and then let his 15 year old son fly it. The stupid thing was that the co-pilot had his seat fully back and couldn't reach the controls when he needed to due to high G forces. The crew should have been aware of the autopilot disconnect but they were a bit unfamiliar with the Airbus systems as opposed to the classic soviet era jets they were used to flying and so the plane stalled and eventually entered a spin- hitting the ground in a level attitude at a rate of descent of around 30,000 feet/min.
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:52 pm

I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Slcpilot
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:32 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:39 pm

OK, somebody help me fill in the blanks....

I think the same thing happened with a KC-135. As I recall, it was an orientation flight with family members on board, and there was a spouse at the helm. Things got out of hand and the plane crashed, in Maryland, I think...

Can anybody confirm this?

SLCPilot
I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
 
IslandHopperCO
Topic Author
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:09 pm

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:13 am

Wow! I can't believe that a pilot would put an 11 year old and a 16 year old at the helm of a widebody jet!!! I had no idea it was a (relatively) large A310. WHAT AN IDIOT PILOT!!! How can someone smart enough to become a captain of a widebody be so stupid and irresponsible.

It's not like they're driving the family car, it's 75 peoples LIVES for pete's sake! At least we can be thankful there were so few people aboard the plane, an A310 has a lot more capacity. Still, 75 deaths because of an idiotic decision.

Maybe I'll think twice about flying Aeroflot after all.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 6683
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:23 am

SLC Pilot, I've heard about that KC-135 as well, but I don't have the exact details.
Love Trumps Hate
 
beefer
Posts: 350
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:37 pm

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:29 am

Sounds like another arguement for keeping the door closed and visitors out of the cockpit during flight.

Certainly would have kept something like this happening.
 
wing
Posts: 1357
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2000 9:10 pm

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:47 am

.... in a level attitude at a rate of descent of around 30,000 feet/min

I highly doubt it.
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
bongo
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 5:32 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:03 am

Just to let you know guys that I won't never never fly with Aeroflot  Pissed
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
Goose
Posts: 1771
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:40 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:09 am

.... in a level attitude at a rate of descent of around 30,000 feet/min

I highly doubt it.


It is possible....... an aircraft of that size in a stall has the flying ability of a freight train.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
MITaero
Posts: 485
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:00 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:16 am

>.... in a level attitude at a rate of descent of around 30,000 feet/min
>I highly doubt it.

Totally reasonable in a 4.8g pull-up.
 
planenutz
Posts: 1156
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:50 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:34 am

Does anyone know what the ramifications were for Aeroflot? I'm surprised that they didnt have their air operators certificate revoked in several counrtries after an incident like this. Or at least be fined a whole lotta money.

Also, I dont recall any huge media coverage of the crash. For some reason it ws kept quiet at the time, and didnt really come to light until several years later.

Not all who wander are lost....
 
OV735
Posts: 832
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:49 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:43 am

Things like that happen in Russia. Rules are meant to be broken. I've seen such things many times, though on a lot smaller scale.
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:04 am

Wow that is unbelievable.

My goondess, I truly thought this was one of those rumors.

I guess that is one reason to do away with "Take your kids to work" day.

wow.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1696
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:21 am

Funny this topic came up (nothing funny about the story of course). When I was home over break I was talking to my neighbor (he came over for some insurance biz w/ my dad) who is a UAL 744 captain (formerly 777/767). We were talking about how he's been all over Europe, and I asked him about some of his experiences over there . One of the very first thing that came up was Aeroflot, he said when he would be offered the Jumpseat into AMS or wherever he was going he said over his dead body. He told me that he'd rather drive or wait for a red-eye than fly w/ Aeroflot. He said one time was enough for the rest of his life on Aeroflot. Big thumbs up
 
cmckeithen
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:31 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:09 am

What is wrong with these international air carriers. They lack common sense in my opinion as far as safety goes and the pilots who fly the planes also lack common sense.

Take Swiss Air Flight 111 for example. You have smoke in the cockpit (who cares if your a by the book Captin) YOU LAND THE PLANE as soon as you can. They made the tragic mistake of waiting to COMPLY with Swiss Air company procedures as to declaring a smoke in cockpit emergency. Then they waste 25mins diverting to dump fuel. YOU LAND. Smoke = Fire. The manufactures are also to blame in that one. WHY put insulation that can burn eaisly on an aircraft? Hello, are they even considering safety?

In the USA you would NEVER hear about a pilots son/daughter in the cockpit let alone flying it for a sec. They would not be allowed in there for a milisecond.

 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:14 am

Then they waste 25mins diverting to dump fuel.

Um, YOU HAVE TO DUMP FUEL TO LAND A PLANE THAT HEAVY. Procedures help keep people alive.

The Aeroflot incident was the subject of a book by Michael Creighton called Airframe, except most of the people in the book lived.

It was also about the "Norton N-22" widebody jet, also a stab at the inherent instability and problems discovered in the MD-11 around the time of the book's release.

N
 
cmckeithen
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:31 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:18 am

Then they should have made the decison sooner than they did. At that point they had no choice but to land with the amount of fuel they had already.
 
Goose
Posts: 1771
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:40 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:43 am

Um, YOU HAVE TO DUMP FUEL TO LAND A PLANE THAT HEAVY. Procedures help keep people alive.

No, you don't. You can still land a plane which is grossly overweight.... it won't be pretty, you might snap the gear (a la FedEx in MEM less than a month ago) or run off the runway, and it's likely the aircraft would never fly again.

But.... I'll make it simple by contrasting the two;

A written off aircraft and some (if not most) people alive, but the PIC ignored company and manufacturer procedures is still good outcome.

An aircraft destroyed and all people aboard killed, but the PIC followed all procedures to the letter will always be a bad outcome.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Aviadvigatel
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:23 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:45 am

Anyone who states that they won't fly with Aeroflot needs a reality check. Okay, so it's a horrific story, the accident was avoidable and the Captain showed fatally poor judgement.... but if you don't think that human error (including stupidity!) is the majority cause of most aviation accidents worldwide, then you'd better stay at home.
According to the story in the link below, Soviet air safety has been equal or better than that in the US, except in 1986 and there were no civil aviation casualties from 1997 until mid 2001. I remember that this has also been the case in more recent years, even discounting the casualties from 9/11. In 2002 there were 3 accidents in the US, 2 in Russia; In 2003 - 3 in the US 1 in Russia (Aviation Safety Network).
IslandHopperCO, if that doesn't convince you, you get a cooked meal with Aeroflot rather than a roll with BABig grin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2160019.stm
 
cmckeithen
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:31 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:12 am

Then explain why the Soviets in Jul 1983 SHOT down a commerical jet. The USA has the safest record when it comes to Aviation.
 
sterne82
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun May 07, 2000 4:50 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:19 am

And what's the link between a question on Aeroflot "supposed unsecurity" (which is quite "laughable", to my opinion) and the Korean airlines B747 which have been shoot down by a Sukhoï of the Soviet air force?

Rgds,

Sterne
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:19 am

"Then explain why the Soviets in Jul 1983 SHOT down a commerical jet."

What does that have to do with anything? If you count the victims, and the USSR count is lower than another count, then safety in the USSR has been better than in that other place. Besides that, the mistakes the crew of KAL007 made are also a partial cause of that disaster.

[Edited 2004-01-26 23:21:57]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
cmckeithen
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:31 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:24 am

Exuse me. The USSR did not even warn the KAL flight that the were in soviet airspace and even so...this was a COMMERICAL PLANE. TONS OF INNOCENT men, women and childern died. SO DONT put partial blame on the crew. The blame lies sqarely on the USSR.
 
Goose
Posts: 1771
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:40 am

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:24 am

Then explain why the Soviets in Jul 1983 SHOT down a commerical jet. The USA has the safest record when it comes to Aviation.

There's quite a few countries which would argue about your assertion that the USA is the "safest".....

And the KAL downing in September (not July) of 1983 was because the aircraft violated Soviet airspace, near the military complexes on Sakhalin Island and Vlodivostok naval base, both sensitive areas. It was during the Cold War... and considering that the Soviets had shot down an airliner not long - about 5 years, in 1978 I read somewhere - before for violating airspace near a military complex (I believe it was Murmansk), the Korean Airlines crew probably should've paid extra-close attention to their charts and headings when skirting Soviet airspace, and given them a wide berth.......

[Edited 2004-01-26 23:26:11]
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:25 am

"Um, YOU HAVE TO DUMP FUEL TO LAND A PLANE THAT HEAVY. Procedures help keep people alive."

Actually, that is a common misconception.

Large commercial aircraft are certified to land up to MTOW in an emergency. Remember that fuel dump remains an option on many larger aircraft like 767s and A330s.

In any occurrence where continuation of the flight any longer than necessary may pose a risk to safety (like smoke in the cabin / engine fire warning, etc...) then an crew will not dump fuel regardless of weight, and an overweight landing will be conducted. This can also take place at Captain's discretion.

A heavy landing inspection is mandatory, but overweight landings rarely (if ever) result in any damage.

Quick example was a Britannia 767-300 last Summer which had smoke in the rear cabin after take-off from Manchester (MAN) on a 9 hour flight to Orlando (MCO). The crew made an immediate return and landed 40,000kg overweight.

A post-landing inspection revealed no damage and once the source of the smoke was identified and rectified the same aircraft was on it's way to Florida 3 hours later (I should know - I was part of the happy relief crew called in to subsequently operate it).

Some quick bits which may also interest you:

  • For a typical flight on the 767, once the center tank fuel has been burned, the aircraft will have to fly in a holding pattern for three further hours to burn sufficient fuel from the wing tanks to reduce the weight to MLW

  • Fuel may not be dumped in turbulent conditions (to avoid the risk of the fuel contacting the aircraft surface)

  • Fuel may not be dumped in or near thunderstorms


  • Does it still seem worth it, choking on all that smoke? Like our chief pilot used to say "just get it down". Saves up to £40,000 worth of fuel too...
    I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
     
    USAFHummer
    Posts: 10261
    Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:22 pm

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:35 am

    Gigneil...

    I believe Airframe was based on a little bit of the SV incident, but mostly on this one right here: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X12107&key=1

    The similarities are pretty amazing....

    Greg
    Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
     
    PVD757
    Posts: 3031
    Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:23 pm

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:35 am

    If I'm not mistaken, a plane can be overweight and still land. That is just the safe rating for the aircraft to land. When I worked for AA in PHL, we had an A300 drop in that originated from JFK. It was scheduled for SDQ. As it was getting up to altitude, a man onboard started to have a heart attack, They divereted to PHL and were overweight by a lot. I'm not sure about the amount over, I just that there was major damage done to the airplane. They blew two tire on each side of the main gears and they BENT the left strut. The plane was sitting on the ramp for two-and-a-half days before they could ferry it to JFK for an overhaul. I remember it very well because I had 260 screaming passengers ready to riot because they waited 6 hours for a replacement plane to take them to SDQ.
     
    airliner777
    Posts: 411
    Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 6:38 am

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:42 am

    Good point Rick! Interesting and reasonable tips about those B767s Sir!!!
     
    IslandHopperCO
    Topic Author
    Posts: 220
    Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:09 pm

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:32 am

    Yeah, I wonder why the press never picked up on this incident. I'd never heard of it before, and I remember most major air crashes! Was there some political turmoil at the time?
     
    Likesplanes
    Posts: 103
    Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2001 3:58 am

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:12 am

    Perhaps someone can clarify this further.
    The accident report that I read on the Airdisaster.com link indicates that the plane hit the ground two minutes and six seconds after beginning the spin/uncontrolled descent. If the plane was actually falling at 30,000 feet per minute, does this not mean that the plane would have had to have been flying at well over 60,000 feet in order to have accomplished this? Perhaps this is what Wing and Goose were referring to when they doubted the information provided. Comments appreciated.
     
    cloudy
    Posts: 1613
    Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:16 am

    The press does not cover Russian and third world crashes as much as they do crashes in first world countries or involving first-world airlines. The main reason for this is that the major media consumers, at least those that draw advertisers, are in first world countries. Another reason is that there are simply more crashes in Russia and the third world - since it happens more often, its news value declines.

    So it is not surprising that you have not heard of it. A crash killing 75 in Russia would be on the back pages of a 1994 newspaper unless it was a very slow news day. Since a western aircraft was involved, it may have warrented a little more attention. But not much.......to most of the media, Russian crashes are an ordinary thing happening in a place that their viewers do not care about. This was even more true back in 1994 when this happened.
     
    Oz777
    Posts: 516
    Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 9:48 am

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Wed Jan 28, 2004 8:49 am

    cmckeithen

    Before you get on you high horse about the KAL007 incident, you should perhaps study the USa involvement in the downing of an IranAir A300 that was "attacking" a US warship.

    One other point, a descent rate of 30000 fpm is debatable. That equates to a vertical (90 degree) dive of 340mph, yet the crash site and attitude of the aircraft indicates the aircraft was level. At that speed, and pressure on the wings, I might venture to suggest that some of the stabilisers would have departed the aircraft prior to impact, and that is not indicated in the report.

    The Aeroflot of old (and bare in mind the size and demographic of their fleet and network) was a nigtmare. Since their update to Western airframes, their safety record stands a lot better than many of the so-called "safe" Western/US/Asian operators.

    OZ777
     
    POSITIVE RATE
    Posts: 2121
    Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:31 am

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:02 am

    Well i've got the Air Disaster vol 3. right in front of me now. The highest rate of descent attained was at one point 39,870 FPM which reduced to about 13,870 FPM at the time of impact- that's still a MASSIVE rate of descent when they hit.

    Ok so my bad.
     
    PA34plt
    Posts: 43
    Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:46 pm

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:58 am

    Oz777:
    At least the American ship attempted contact with the Iranian jet.
     
    MD11Lover
    Posts: 436
    Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2003 4:40 am

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:20 am


    CMCKeithen, I dont think you re in a position to judge the procedures taken by the SR111 crew. Im sure they didnt want the accident to occur either. And as far as your statement;

    "What is wrong with these international air carriers. They lack common sense in my opinion as far as safety goes and the pilots who fly the planes also lack common sense"

    What is wrong with YOU? How can you say they lack common sense? And before you make a statement like that, i would suggest backing up with data, because

    1) International is a very broad term
    2) WHEN and WHERE/HOW have they lacked "common sense" as you say?

    MD11lover
     
    AR385
    Posts: 6742
    Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:28 pm

    Notwithstanding what the final report on the SR111 accident says (I'm not sure it's out) There is a bunch of research by NASA and other institutions that suggest that sometimes commercial pilots are too conservative on their maneuvers and their judgements. One, and I repeat one, of the reasons for this has been proposed to be that it's been ingrained in them to fly in a way so as no to upset the passengers. These research started gaining momentum after the crashes in COS and PIT by those 737's where afterwards, it was theorized that pilots should be taught more effectively about agressive, regain-of-control maneuvers. No, I don't have the sources for these, but I'm sure any search on the internet will turn up something.

    On the other hand, you have the tailfin departing the fuselage on that AA915? from JFK to SDQ. Again, there's still not a final report on this accident but there is a strong indication that aggressive maneuvering by the PF resulted in that separation.

    I stress, however, that all of these fingerpointing would be more respectful of the dead crews and at least more effective if it takes place after the final reports are out. And even then, they state only "probable causes".

    cmckeithen:

    To this date, nobody knows why KAL 007 strayed into Soviet territory. Whoever claims so is not telling the truth. The fact remains that an innocent civilian airliner was shot down by the military of a nation. As was exactly the case of the Iranian A300 shot down in 1988 by the Vincennes of the Aegis class. Both planes were warned. Both pilots did not get the warnings. If anybody screwed up here, it was the military responsible in both nations. But one incident does not give or makes an apology of the other as seems to be the train of thought here.

    AR385



     
    afay1
    Posts: 1206
    Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:37 pm

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:56 pm

    Some of you are also forgetting that Russia is a different country than the Soviet Union, despite lingering attitudes and procedures. There is no justification or excuse that can be made for the A310 incident; however, for every aviation accident in the 2nd or 3rd world, an equally stupid one can be found in the 1st world. So be careful when you make blanket statements and judgements or people are likely to judge you the same way....
     
    cloudy
    Posts: 1613
    Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:16 am

    There is no justification or excuse that can be made for the A310 incident; however, for every aviation accident in the 2nd or 3rd world, an equally stupid one can be found in the 1st world. So be careful when you make blanket statements and judgements or people are likely to judge you the same way....
    ------

    It is true that there are as many TOTAL aviation accidents caused by these sorts of things in the first world as in the third world. However, we are talking about AIRLINE accidents, not general aviation accidents. If you think you are not more at risk flying in a Russian or in African Airliner than flying in a similar-sized COMMERCIAL JET in the US, Europe or Japan, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Simple statistics show otherwise. And yes, more AIRLINE accidents in these regions are caused by simple carelessness in piloting or in maintanence than in first world regions. In the first world, MOST accidents are due to a combination of freak factors. In Russia and the third world, simple neglegence or stupidity are MORE OFTEN to blame.

    GENERALLY, The first world has higher and better enforced safety standards. It has a more experienced and professional regulators, pilots and mechanics. This does have an impact (although Russia and some other places are getting better). And before you accuse me of overgeneralizing, read the highlighted words again. They are in the English language for a reason.

    It is easy to accuse people of overgeneralizing when they point out obvious facts - simply because something is not ALWAYS true. But if you carefully read what they ACTUALLY said you will see that WHEN PROPERLY QUALIFIED, "blanket statements" do often have some truth to them. Be careful of being to quick to accuse people of overgeneralization or of predjudice. By quickly and unthinkingly categorizing people's ideas in that way, you are doing the very thing you are accusing them of.

    Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine.There are some people who like to characterize any generalizations except their own as somehow ignorant. They like to ruin all sorts of productive conversations just so they can appear to be fighting the noble cause against ignorance. If you have to say "I didn't say ALL" a dozen times - then you are talking to such a person. They drive me nuts....

    IN SHORT...I'll make my point in their style: Don't let BAD generalizations give a bad name to all generalizations, please..... Sometimes we do need to look at general trends. Doing so is not always a trait of ignorance.
     
    afay1
    Posts: 1206
    Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:37 pm

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:43 pm

    Point taken. However, I do have a rebuttal  Big grin. You are quite correct that most accidents in the 2nd/3rd world are much simpler to define; i.e. clearly bad maintenance, pilot training, crazy decisions, etc. (ps, I am obviously not an industry analyst, so its my opinion). However, it seems that in the U.S. the accidents, freak ones notwithstanding, are usually caused by much more subsurface reasons. Large American companies have been fine tuning their cost/benefit analysis' for years, and so have Boeing/Airbus and the insurance companies. While some random Russian company may never even write a maintenace log, Alaska Airlines forges them and then tries to cover it up. When the tail falls of an American Airlines A300 and it comes out that it had fallen on its tail after manufacture, they divert attention to wake turbulence. When it comes out that a Swissair MD-11's entertainment wiring is faulty because they used a shoddy subcontractor; the Russian just say, see! we knew it was a bad idea to include any entertainment on our planes at all (aside from the other passengers). Not to mention that the US airlines and airports have been fighting to have decent security for years. Obviously, it is statistically safer to fly on NW/UA/AA/B6, etc.,etc, than on some random Congolese airline. For the Russian ones, I am not sure, I don't believe S7 or KrasAir have ever had a crash. Aeroflot has had loads of them, but none recently, but they are a special case. Anyway, I wasn't trying to insult anyone, just state a point....
     
    Goose
    Posts: 1771
    Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:40 am

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:47 pm

    When stating that "Aeroflot has tons of crashes on its record" ... you have to take into account that, during the Soviet era, Aeroflot was of gargantuan size, dwarfing anything of modern comparison; try putting all the major airlines in the US together, and you get an idea of fleet size.....
    "Talk to me, Goose..."
     
    SFO2SVO
    Posts: 304
    Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:56 pm

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:34 pm

    One more thing. That A310 was not actually operated by Aeroflot but rather by the company called "Aeroflot-RMAL". RMAL (Rossijskie Mezhdunarodnye Avialinii) stands for Russian International Airlines. This company was created specifically to operate the first few Western aircrafts. 1994 was the year of drastic and rapid changes for Russia in general and aviation industry in particular, there were over 400 (!) airlines in Russia. Many of them were capitalizing on well-known Aeroflot brand.
    look here: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/101856/M/ It says Aeroflot but there is no Aeroflot logo ("the bird") anywhere!

    And now to pure speculations:
    there is a somewhat popular theory there that Russian authorities and Airbus jointly decided not to draw too much attention to the crash because it allegedly uncovered some defects in A310s control system.
    I personally do not like conspiracy theories, my only point is do not base your opinion on todays Aeroflot based on Mezhdurechensk. It deserves a lot of heat, mostly for uneven level of service but it is by no means a "dangerous company".
    318-19-20-21 332 343 717 727 737-234578 743-4 752 763 772 D9/10 M11/8x/90 F70 RJ85 ATR72 SF340 E120 TU34/54 IL18/62/86/9
     
    Dexter
    Posts: 254
    Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 9:31 pm

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:32 pm

    There's no point in making blank statements. Take the statistics.
    Aero International (http://www.aerointernational.de), which is a highly respected German civil aviation mag, published an article in their March 2003 issue titled "How safe is my airline?" They put together a table showing the "security rating" of different airlines around the world. They key measurement in it is the Security Rate, where SR=(No. of fatalities*1000)/(RPKs in millions).

    For most airlines the SR is calculated in the period 1973-2002, but for SU they took 1992-2002, b/c the SU RPK data is not really available for '73-'92 I think. SU comes out with a result in the third quartile (i.e. not the safest, but not the worst either), sandwiched in the rating between Philippines and South African Airways. SU according to the calculation has a better safety record (statistically) than Bmi British Midland, TAP Air Portugal, Thai Airways, Air New Zealand, Turkish Airlines and Saudi Arabian Airlines among others. So that's the statistics.

    P.S. The mag published a similar rating a couple of years ago and they took all the data since the 1970s for SU as well (it showed that SU had like 5000 fatalities in the period). That rating also had more airlines in it. I'm trying to find that issue now and if I do, I will post the information here.
     
    Espion007
    Posts: 1653
    Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:29 am

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:37 am

    Just to let you know guys that I won't never never fly with Aeroflot

    That is the most ignorant statement ive ever seen.Aeroflot is a fine airline with good service.if you are not going to fly on it because of one pilot's decision than be my guest.Ive never felt like i was in danger on their aircraft.Every Airline crashes one time or another,and the reason for this one is because the pilot was neglegant and thought it wasnt a danger.It isnt like every Captain of Aeroflot is doing this.

    BTW,if the plane im on is about to crash,the Airline is really the last thing on my mind Big grin
    Snakes on a Plane!
     
    cloudy
    Posts: 1613
    Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

    RE: Did A Child Really Crash An Aeroflot Jet?

    Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:52 am

    Point taken. However, I do have a rebuttal . You are quite correct that most accidents in the 2nd/3rd world are much simpler to define; i.e. clearly bad maintenance, pilot training, crazy decisions, etc. (ps, I am obviously not an industry analyst, so its my opinion). However, it seems that in the U.S. the accidents, freak ones notwithstanding, are usually caused by much more subsurface reasons. Large American companies have been fine tuning their cost/benefit analysis' for years, and so have Boeing/Airbus and the insurance companies. While some random Russian company may never even write a maintenace log, Alaska Airlines forges them and then tries to cover it up. When the tail falls of an American Airlines A300 and it comes out that it had fallen on its tail after manufacture, they divert attention to wake turbulence. When it comes out that a Swissair MD-11's entertainment wiring is faulty because they used a shoddy subcontractor; the Russian just say, see! we knew it was a bad idea to include any entertainment on our planes at all (aside from the other passengers). Not to mention that the US airlines and airports have been fighting to have decent security for years. Obviously, it is statistically safer to fly on NW/UA/AA/B6, etc.,etc, than on some random Congolese airline. For the Russian ones, I am not sure, I don't believe S7 or KrasAir have ever had a crash. Aeroflot has had loads of them, but none recently, but they are a special case. Anyway, I wasn't trying to insult anyone, just state a point....
    ---

    I'm sorry to go off on you so hard. I could of been A LOT nicer and made the same point.....And you are right, Alaska did try to cover up some things - as did Valuejet....

    As for Aeroflot, they are reputed to be among the best of the Russian airlines currently. However, I don't really know where this reputation comes from. It could be they have just made a lot of progress in the last seven or eight years. Most of the post-soviet airlines are small and havn't been arround as long - so are harder to judge with statistics. I guess the most meaningful comparison would be to compare the overall record of Russian scheduled carriers with that of Alaska, Canada, and Scandanavia, which operate in similar regions.

    I would still fly on most Russian airlines, because although they may not be as good as US airlines, they are still better than ground transport or flying general aviation.

    Who is online