Dash8King
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Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:23 am

This is taken from globeinvestor.com, Jan. 22.

WestJet is in the process of refurbishing and expanding its fleet, with nearly two dozen new, more fuel-efficient Boeing 737-700 aircraft set for delivery over the next two years.

However, it also has been looking at buying smaller regional jets from Brazil's Embraer SA or Boeing Co.

Mr. Beddoe said, during the call, that WestJet is still in discussions with both companies and it would be premature to say which way it is leaning.

Following the call, he said it will likely be three to six months before it makes a decision. "The struggle is to ascertain which is the better opportunity for us," he said.


I thought the EMB-190 was just a one time thing, because EMB brought it to YYC?

 
spyderz
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RE: Air Canada To Santiago, What A/C?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:49 am

Well it makes sense. Westjet serves all the major destinations in Canada right now, so any new expansion in Canada will have to be increase in frequencies or new routes to smaller towns. With Westjet's 73G's seating close to 140, it makes it difficult for the airline to add a bunch of frequencies or operate out of smaller airports. An Embraer 190 or 717 (I guess since Boeing is in the running) would perfectly compliment the larger aircraft. Also with Air Canada moving towards a larger regional jet fleet and more point to point services, Westjet will have to respond with more of their own point-to-point services. The fact is that most passengers in BC have to transit through YYC to reach destinations in the east. This new breed of regional jets could make marginal point-to-point flights profitable and make US expansion less risky by offering a smaller amount of seats to a new market. With Jetblue's order of the Embraer jets, I wouldn't be suprised to see Westjet follow, since those two airlines are more related in terms of structure than Westjet is with Southwest.
 
Goose
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:54 am

The -700s actually will all seat 136 in the coming months, as a row is taken out to increase pitch.

And I've heard that it's actually the 737-600 which is in the running as Boeing's "entrant." That would make more sense than the 717, since they would have fleet commonality with the -700s......
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Dash8King
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:34 am

I hope they don't get the -600, it has practically the same operating costs as the 73G but less seats.
 
slawko
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:47 am

Less Seats makes it a bit more expensive, plus its a little bit big for some of the places they want to take it into...esentially the -600 is the same as the 700, and WJ needs something that is not soo big, heavy, and expensive...the EMB may be just the thing they need to fill that "little" niche.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Goose
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:59 am

There's still plenty of markets which WestJet can serve with the -700..... it doesn't necessarily need to be a 1x daily to warrant service - maybe once every two days or so in some markets. In the case of markets which WS pulled out of - YBR, YAM and YSB - the traffic was seasonal anyway.... so WestJet could still capitalize on those markets by re-instituting their Limited Addition programs........ which would make a lot more money overall than year-round service, regardless of aircraft type.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:29 am

Thanks for posting that article D8King. I found the .Following the call, he said it will likely be three to six months before it makes a decision. "The struggle is to ascertain which is the better opportunity for us," he said. comment to be interesting, at least we know that an announcement is coming.

I know we want(ed) the 737-600, even though most in this forum don't think we should get it. As I understand it seats 120 PAX, give or take a few, and is a NG instead of an old, old, old, -200. When JetBlue placed an order, we apparently took some keen interest in the EMB170/190 as well. I don't know which way we're going to go, but I think the EMB opens a lot more options and cities for us.
EH.
 
PVD757
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:26 am

I'm sure that Boeing's less than stellar sales of the -600's could produce a rock bottom deal if Westjet was really interested...
 
Fiedman
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:12 pm

This is what I said in a thread a few weeks earlier and you all thought I was crazy who's laughing now  Laugh out loud
Westjet - Canada's National Low-fare Airline
 
cloudy
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:39 am

I'm sure that Boeing's less than stellar sales of the -600's could produce a rock bottom deal if Westjet was really interested...
-----

No....It is produced on the same line. Its fixed costs are largely shared with the other 737 models. The only incentive Boieng has to give them a better deal on the -600 is to win orders away from Embraer.

The 717 has its own fixed costs to cover since it is produced on its own line. This gives Boieng a major incentive to sell the bird.

Its interesting that Bombardier is out of the running. Embraer and Boeing offer comfort, range and payload advantages, but one would think that a Canadian company would have some advantage......
 
Goose
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 8:02 am

Its interesting that Bombardier is out of the running. Embraer and Boeing offer comfort, range and payload advantages, but one would think that a Canadian company would have some advantage......

WestJet isn't quite as motivated by politics as Air Canada is...... WestJet seems to pay a little more attention as to what would be good for the bottom line and shareholders....
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
flyyul
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 8:17 am

"WestJet seems to pay a little more attention as to what would be good for the bottom line and shareholders.... "

-$100 bucks says that the CRJ is not only cheaper for WS, but also more suited for WestJEt's markets. Sudbury, Comox, Moncton, Sault Ste.Marie, Gander, Fort McMurray and Prince George... please? The ERJ190 will offer WS the same type of seating as a typical 100 seater. Its still way too big for these markets, where frequency rather than capacity is better.

The CRJ-700/705 is proven, the EMB has not proven a single thing yet. In fact, it has even flown.

However, what conspiracist theorists could argue is that Canadair is from QC, ... what an insult that would be buying something from La Belle QC.

Whatever tradeoffs between the two products in terms of passenger comfort, the CRJ flies the same range, and is lighter. Prob cheaper also...

Mark
 
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yyz717
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 8:26 am

However, what conspiracist theorists could argue is that Canadair is from QC, ... what an insult that would be buying something from La Belle QC.

Mark, I am a fan of Canadair over Embraer like you (as are most Cdns), but you have to admit that the EMB-170/190 has some advantages over the CRJ series....higher capacity for one. The EMB-190 is also selling much better than the CRJ.

Realistically either the CRJ or ERJ could fit nicely in the Westjet fleet. Any possible order or interest by WJ for the ERJ should not be labelled "anti QC". Nor should any fans of the ERJ.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Dash8King
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:27 am

I would rather see the EMB in the fleet, it has a wider body does it not?
 
flyyul
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:43 am

Right.

But I would argue that WS doesnt need an EMB in their fleet.

There is no need for 90-95 seats, so many markets cant even support 50-60 seats.

Mark
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:04 pm

$100 bucks says that the CRJ is not only cheaper for WS, but also more suited for WestJEt's markets. Sudbury, Comox, Moncton, Sault Ste.Marie, Gander, Fort McMurray and Prince George... please? The ERJ190 will offer WS the same type of seating as a typical 100 seater. Its still way too big for these markets, where frequency rather than capacity is better.

Goose made a good point - Westjet isn't motivated by politics. I haven't heard a peep about us even looking at CRJ's, but that's not to say we haven't. Regardless of what aircraft we decide to go with, a smaller aircraft will allow us to re-enter markets we've pulled out of and start service to new markets which we haven't flown to.

I've heard talk of us contracting smaller airlines such as Pacific Coastal and Hawkair to do regional flying for us. Maybe those airlines can cater to cities whch can only handle 50 or 60-odd passenger movements a day? Maybe the EMB can tackle cities which can handle 80-200 passenger movements a day?

One thing is for sure, when our -200's get retired I don't think we can handle flying 3 or 4 flights a day to cities like YXS, YMM, and YQU and still make money. We need a smaller aircraft and I think the EMB would be a great fit and would be able to offer more frequencies.

I've never flown on a CRJ or EMB so I can't comment on either. I've heard that the EMB is more comfortable for the passenger and is also able to handle installation of LiveTV so I would tend to think that we'd go with the EMB.
EH.
 
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coronado
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:08 pm

Have any of the above posts heard of Embraer 170's and 175's? Main line comfort and range and specially lsufficient uggage and cargo capacity so much in demand during Canadian winters (September thru early May)? So maybe you combine some 170/175's and 190/195's--they have the same type rating and can cover the 70-100pax routes including seasonal shifts.
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
Goose
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:24 pm

To be exact, CanadaEH.... I stated that WestJet isn't as influenced by politics as AC. They still make decisions based on politics, and have engaged in political blustering of their own.... I don't think you could survive in this industry if you didn't.

But anyway, in this case.... I don't think the fact that the manufacturer is Canadian would hold much sway over whether or not they purchase an aircraft - suitability to the company's needs would override any desire to "Buy Canadian."

It'd be interesting to see if WestJet would enter into a code-share or alliance with a smaller regional partner.... much like what KI did with Sunwest when they were cutting back service into smaller centres like YQL or YXH......
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:50 pm

I haven't heard any talk from people inside Westjet about contracting other airlines to feed into us, but I have heard the regional airlines talking about it.. Yet another "what if" I guess..
EH.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:52 pm

But I would argue that WS doesnt need an EMB in their fleet.

Why not? Many markets are too large for the 73G. Such as YQB/YAM which WJ pulled out of.

WJ could add alot more smaller Cdn cities with the ERJ/CRJ.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:07 pm

The EMB is pretty much a 100 seater .. the 73NG is 140 seats.

100 seats is still too big for too many markets in Canada. Do you honestly believe that YULYQM will fill up a 73NG, or YQBYYZ?

What would be cool is to see WS with CRJ-200's.. even if this is a pipe dream, WS with this aircraft could literally take over the Canadian skies. They would need 30-40 pax to break-even, whereby pretty much every town become prime for service  Big thumbs up

Mark
 
kalakaua
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:10 pm

I'll probably get bashed for suggesting the B717-200s....
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
Goose
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:43 pm

Why not? Many markets are too large for the 73G. Such as YQB/YAM which WJ pulled out of.

WestJet never flew to YQB. You're probably thinking of YSB. They've also flown to YBR at one point in time on a "Limited Addition" schedule during the summer season only. It'd be nice to see WS add a least a few destinations on a similar schedule scheme, but I don't know if that will happen. WS hasn't done Limited Additions in a few years.

The EMB is pretty much a 100 seater .. the 73NG is 140 seats.

100 seats is still too big for too many markets in Canada.


WS' -700s technically have 135 seats, or something - they removed some rows to increase pitch not long ago, or so I read.

I believe that, if the same seating scheme were used on a 737-600, it'd come out to just above 100 seats.... no? And I would think that retaining fleet commonality and one supplier of parts, not to mention a single manufacturer, would be a big draw for WestJet.

But only time will tell.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
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yyz717
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:50 pm

The EMB is pretty much a 100 seater .. the 73NG is 140 seats. 100 seats is still too big for too many markets in Canada.

WJ only needs 65 passengers to break even on the EMB. The EMB might be perfect.

WestJet never flew to YQB. You're probably thinking of YSB.

I meant YSB. Thanks. Fat fingers.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Goose
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:54 pm

WJ only needs 65 passengers to break even on the EMB. The EMB might be perfect.

I was told once that the "magic number" for break-even on the -700s was not that much higher than 65 folks.......

And with 110-140 seats on the 73Gs, that means that everything above that number is gravy - allowing WestJet to have seat sales and so on to "create" more demand in smaller markets. They've managed to do this in centres like YQQ and YLW.... both have shown phenomenal growth since WestJet started there, as their competition in both those centres was primarily restricted to regionals flying F28s and Dash-8s.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:03 pm

I think right now Bombardier is rueing the day they shelved the BRJ-X project and decided not to take over the Fairchild-Dornier 728/928 projects. They could have been in serious contention for the potentially HUGE Star Alliance order, the 100-plane order for B6, now the potential order for WestJet.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:21 am

I think right now Bombardier is rueing the day they shelved the BRJ-X project and decided not to take over the Fairchild-Dornier 728/928 projects.

Ray, I agree with you completely. The market seems to have largely rejected the CRJ-900 in favour of the EMB-170/190.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:38 am

All indications are that STAR will get in part CRj;s..

The CRJ offers commonality with a product that is overwhelmingly operated by all STAR carriers.. the CRJ.

 
Dash8King
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:34 am

If they did get a regional jet, anyone else think that YZF would be a future destination?
 
yegbey01
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:42 am

The 50 seaters could do marvels for WestJet. They could easily add a whole bunch of destinations. Brandon, Sudbury, Lethbridge.

I don't agree with YZF at all. Yellowknife is not a passenger destination. It depends quite a bit on cargo. So you need the 737's
 
Dash8King
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:28 pm

YZF is about half cargo half, half pax. Westjet could easily fill once or twice daily to YEG. There are about 4-5 flights a day on average, and I don't remember the plane being in a less then half and half configuration. Lots of times they go out 3/4 pax 1/4 cargo.
 
lymanm
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:45 pm

Because of similar operating costs between the 737-600 and 737-700, saying that a 737-600 would open up new possibilities to smaller communities would be akin to saying that a 737-700 retrofitted with 100 seats would also be profitable. Sure, you could also but 36 seats in a 762 and place it on YSJ-YHZ, but it won't be more efficient than a Dash-8!
buhh bye
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:53 pm

I think the expansion to RJ's would be a nice touch. It might lower some of their high operating costs.

Cheers!
Crye me a river
 
Goose
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:12 pm

I think the expansion to RJ's would be a nice touch. It might lower some of their high operating costs.

WestJet's high operating costs?

Uhm.... WS' operating costs have gone down quite dramatically this past 6 months or so. They're far, far lower than Air Canada's.....
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:15 pm

I stand corrected then.  Big thumbs up

The last time I checked, which was I while ago, I admit, they were operating slightly higher than most Canadian carriers, but I'm sure that's changed by now.

Like I said, I stand corrected!

Cheers!
Crye me a river
 
Goose
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:43 pm

That's interesting.... as to my knowledge, WestJet has always has an advantage in terms of costs. They've always been kept low; the airline has been a Southwest clone from day one, so controlling costs has always been a focus there.....
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Dash8King
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:41 pm

Perhaps you saw the CASM, and it looked high because it was in CDN cents not american.
 
cloudy
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:43 am

A Westjet higher-up speaking at the "growth airlines conference" . This webcast is archived and reachable from Southwest Airline's website. He said a 100 seater is pretty certain sooner or later. However, he said it was pretty much a tossup between Embraer and the 737-600. The -600 has the advantage of commonality and range. The Embraer is lighter, and this counts for more in Canada than in the US because of how fees are calculated. Also, the Embraer may be more efficient if it can live up to its performance guarantees. He did seem to have a higher opinion of the -600 then one would expect. The current generation RJ's and the 717 are appartantly not under serious consideration.

Two other usefull facts - the Canadian dollar is worth roughly three quarters of an American dollar - this should help in adjusting figures. Also, Canadian taxes are higher in many areas - particularily fuel taxes and taxes that fund ATC. This affects CASM figures. He says WestJet's costs are lower than Southwest's when taxes are taken into account.
 
yow
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:50 am

The last time I checked, which was I while ago, I admit, they were operating slightly higher than most Canadian carriers, but I'm sure that's changed by now.

Yes WS historically had relatively high operating costs due to their largely regional flying, but that also produced much higher yield. Recently WestJet's main focus has been on launching transcon routes of +2.5 hrs. The resulting much longer average stage lengths, along with more than 1/2 their fleet now being NG's has dramatically lowered their operating costs.

While they won't publicly admit this, Bombadier must really be kicking themselves in the behind for not developing the BBJ or taking on the Dornier program. As much as I love supporting homegrown Canadian businesses, Embraer has the superior product in the 70-100 seater category. While Bombardier still has the better of the 50 seaters, the majority of the major regionals have already placed their large orders for them, with demand definitely dropping.
 
Dash8King
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Sun Feb 01, 2004 4:39 pm

Yow you work for First Air, is there any way you can tell how loads are out of the YZF-YEG run.
 
Aviationman
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RE: Westjet Serious About A Regional Jet?

Mon Feb 02, 2004 2:16 am

Pax loads on YEG-YZF fluctuate. For sure the busiest First Air flight YEG-YZF is 7F957. A late night flight with 75+ passengers regurarely.