flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:25 am

Need some ideas here..

I was brainstorming to see what AC could possibly come up with out of YYZ for the future, given that the A345/6's may come into the fleet.

Do the future routes have any potential with AC:
YYZ-HKG?
YYZ-KIX?
YYZ-ICN?
YYZ-JNB?
YYZ-DXB?
YYZ-TPE?

Im interested to hear some opinions!

Mark
 
martinairyyz
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:29 am

Hmmm... Air Canada may go under soon, but SA willdo well on the YYZ-JNB route!

Everything from YYZ is a profit and a joy to spotters!
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
yegbey01
Posts: 1349
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:39 am


It would make a lot more sense to consolidate all flights to Asia from YVR. even if it means flying twice to ICN, TPE and so forth from YVR.

We keep hearing about JNB. I just don't know why Air Canada would want to fly half way around the world when it can easily codeshare with LH and OS on these routes.

DXB.... if EK jumps in first. AC would never even entertain the possibility.



 
B747-437B
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:41 am

Everything from YYZ is a profit and a joy to spotters!

Thank you for your insightful comments.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
captaingomes
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 7:20 am

Why would SA do well as opposed to AC on the same route with the same equipment? Let's try to see if Air Canada can once again make Canadians proud with their financial position and with their customer focus. Yes, as a spotter it would be cool to see SA fly in here with an A340, but as a Canadian, it would make me proud to see a successful Air Canada profitably fly the same route. It means more jobs for Canadians and more money into the pockets of Canadians, meaning our next door neighbours, our family and friends.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
martinairyyz
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 8:27 am

Now Nuno,

If SA flies here, the choice will be a bigger variety which equals to competition, and lower fares from the better airline!

If may bring money into our pockets but I'd rather have half-price airfare on SA than bloody expensive tickets just to fly Error Canada..... Thanks, even though AC is good in some places, in the ticketmarket they are tooooooo high priced.

Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
yegbey01
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 8:41 am

Captiangomes....
The Canadian market (out of YYZ anyway) is overly priced. Reason: lack of substantial compeition.

it's always cheaper to fly from ORD to LHR via YYZ on AC than to fly from YYZ to LHR nonstop.

So more airlines will make it easy for consumers to fly from and TO Canada. Cheap ticket prices often lure Foreign tourists
 
airbusfanyyz
Posts: 1410
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 1:01 am

RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 8:58 am

It must be that many of the AC bashers on a.net are occasional flyers or ex-CP staff. I cannot fathom why AC is viewed so negatively when the offer one of the best mainline products in North America.
No doubt AC still has a very long way to go to but I agree with Captaingomes that I hope that AC can works things out and make the true north strong and proud.  Smile

Marc I see;
YYZ-JNB
YYZ-CAI

Cheers,
Kaz
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:34 am

Martinair, my post was entirely in response to your original "die AC, I want to see SA fly YYZ-JNB so we can spot different airlines" post. If you believe that SA is half the price of AC, then you surely must be mistaken. How can you compare anyways? Do you follow SA's pricing policies? Do both airlines have any routes in which you could easily compare prices? Based on economics, type of passenger, equipment, etc etc etc? No. So you have no means to compare AC's pricing to SA's pricing strategy.

Yegbey01, read above. I am in no way against competition, and am I in no way wanting to leave foreign airlines out of Canada just so that Air Canada can fly routes on their own. I just posted my response suggesting that if I had the choice of one or the other serving the route, I would definitely prefer to see AC, of course if it could be done profitably. It would benefit us more if AC served the route (profitably) than SA. If both can serve the route (answer is likely a no) then that would be even better! Besides, your "competition" theory isn't quite right, since there is good competition between YYZ and LHR (and other nearby airports).
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
yegbey01
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:39 am

Airbusfan,

Ever since CP was absorbed by AC, I became an AC flyer. Just got my Aeroplan Elite renewed once again for another year.

But don't you agree that more competition is good for the consumer? I will always prefer AC over any other carrier.

 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:51 am

AC routes from YYZ I can see

YYZ-BOM
YYZ-JNB
YYZ-SHA

Why would AC want to have asian flights from YYZ?
-YYZ is AC's main hub.
-Huge asian population in Toronto
-The current asian routes from yyz make AC make and
the flights are full(NRT, DEL, HKG)



Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
Rattibone
Posts: 121
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:02 am

LH477,

AC already flies to Shanghai (AC37 and AC38) via YVR. Are you saying non stop to Shanghai?
 
airbusfanyyz
Posts: 1410
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:05 am

Yegbey01,

I have been AA Advantage Gold, UA Premier, and I am currently an AC Elite flyer. I am not saying that competition is bad, but rather that I would like to see a strong AC.
I would also love to see a lot more carriers start service to YYZ. Toronto is the most diverse city on the planet and can probably support additional routes especially to South Asia, Africa. Hopefully we'll see more once the new terminal's Phase II is complete.

Cheers,
Kaz
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:08 am

ACA would need a lot more then 2 340-500's or something along those lines if they were to start up any of these long hauls to asia, or africa. Using the current fleet of -300's would not let AC take advantage of the huge cargo potential. They would be constantly taking payload restrictions in the form of pax or cargo being offloaded. Air Canada needs to get its house in order before it can go off on the network building spree that they proposed back in the early days of the CP merger. I do recall at that time a map the Mr. Milton presented to employees with JNB, MOW, KBP, SYD, BKK, SIN and a number of other destinations listed as in AC's future...fact is that with the current fleet, and the state of the company they cant really afford to launch much of anything right now...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
captaingomes
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:24 am

My question is this. Can AC afford the Airbus A340-500's and 600's, or can they afford to not take these aircraft? Maybe taking delivery of these aircraft, despite their increased costs to the company, will provide Air Canada with strong profit potential. Maybe without these aircraft Air Canada will never reach its true potential, also limiting the effectiveness of its short-haul fleet.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
martinairyyz
Posts: 1188
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:56 am

Here-Here Nu-Nu!

It is like this..... does a hobo keep his $1 to buy food with or does he spend it on a better begging cup?

The food will keep him for oly so long whereas the begging cup will help him get more $$$$$

Think of the hobos! They're like AC is now!
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
slawko
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:59 am

If a certain pilot group would agree to work for 340 wages, then they could solve their fleet problems with a bunch of nice new 747-400's but....given what was just announced I don't see ACPA playing with the company on much of anything in the near future...Launching a few new routes with some new and expensive airplanes will not solve AC' financial problems...they need som stability first, then they can start to grow again. Right now I would maintain that they should not grow any more then their current situation allows them to...in other words they should maximize the efficient use of their current fleet, and if a surplus exists then add service and or frequency...but adding a new type to the fleet at high cost is probably not a good idea, expecially if its only going to open up one or two new routes...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:59 am

Here's my two cents:
I'm hoping to tour South Africa in 2005, and truth be told, I'd fly SAA over AC for several reasons:
-> IFE, far superior on SAA compared to existing AC fleet, which is important on long-haul routes;
-> Would be nice to fly on a 346 (not holding my breath for AC);
-> I'm told that SA F/As are up there with SQ F/As in the 'most attractive' category (which is important when the IFE gets boring);
-> New carriers/destinations often bring great discounts with them to start;
-> Impeccible safety and service reputation;
-> South African accents are among the most beautiful in the world.
(OK, the last one is a stretch).

I've heard many rumours about AC and JNB lately, and I believe there is a market given Toronto's large South African population. I'd like to think I'd be loyal to AC...but I'm sure I'd jump at the SAA ticket.

As for the 345 -- I know that SAA considered them, but opted for the 346 instead. Maybe they'll reconsider and pick up AC's.

G
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:14 am

G, I too would probably fly SA over AC at the same price, just to try something different. My loyalty only goes so far.  Big grin Besides, I truly believe that my individual purchase wont make one difference to the prosperity of an airline anyways, so might as well try something different and perhaps exotic.

Anyways, there's no doubt Slawko, that my little theory would not solve AC's problems, and it would require money ... something AC has very little of. I too would like to see the debt taken care of before any massive expansion. But if it helps them to get rid of some current aircraft and get the new A345/6's, then I'm all for it.

One last thing, the 744's would probably not be suitable for some of the operations they envision due to lack of range. They would likely be less efficient than the current A340-300's. Their great advantage would be to capitalize on profitable long-haul routes with capable aircraft and low acquisition costs.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
AlekToronto
Posts: 321
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:27 am

hey guys!
I am kinda surprised abt all the talk and speculation about YYZJNB served on AC. I seriously doubt that this will ever happen. If there was such a enormous demand for South Africa to Canada, then SAA would be flying to Toronto already I am sure. They have a daily 744 (now 346?) that sits all day in SA - New York">JFK before the nightime dep to JNB, they could fly it up to Toronto for lot less cost than AC dedicating a A340 jet to the route.
SA)">NA to South Africa is not an extremely busy route (i have flown SA - New York">JFK and SA - Georgia">ATL to SA and the flights are never full) with the exception of 2 months a year.

I am still waiting for when AC will cancel the Delhi route. AC has a sordid history of starting India and then dumping it after a while quietly when the busy holiday season ends.

YYZHKG is the only route with potential and possibly YYZPEK in the far future. All other Asia will go via Vancouver for sure. DXB - I will not hold my breath!

Apparently AC is doing really well with their Latin Routes - there could be a possibility there to expand GRU, EZE, SCL maybe add LIM, CCS, BOG, etc???
my friend tried to book the EZE direct flight and all the flights were sold out!

cheers!
Alek
 
canuckpaxguy
Posts: 1482
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:48 am

Alek,
SAA does fly to YYZ ... on a codeshare with Delta.
Although I have no concrete data for facts and figures, I'm told by some of my South African friends that their countrymen book their flights through SAA and connect in Atlanta or New York City.

They do this for several reasons, but mostly because South African immigrants often have significant assets back home. Since they cannot legally take their assets out of South Africa (with some exceptions like interest earned on investments, etc) they book their flight on SAA's website in SA rand and pay for the flights from their South African bank accounts & credit cards. (This legislation may have changed recently though).

If you look at SAA's website, you can book a flight to Toronto. SAA just doesn't have a plane that will fly this far, and their largest planes are already full of pax going to Atlanta and J.F.K., so it makes sense to codeshare the last leg.

Again, I can't tell you how many Canadians are on the flights from J.F.K. or Atlanta, but I know that's the route many SA-Canucks go.

G
 
flyyul
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:08 pm

"It would make a lot more sense to consolidate all flights to Asia from YVR. even if it means flying twice to ICN, TPE and so forth from YVR."

YVR in principle, has a lot of trouble on the domestic/transborder side of things. YVR isnt much of a corporate town, and is very seasonal. In the summer time, AC and other airlines have a significant cruise/tourist travel demand, all of which is relatively low yield. AC has failed on a lot of transborder markets out there, such as PHX/DFW/DEN/LAS and most of their US runs BOS/IAD/MIA are seasonal on a reduced frequency basis.. for this reason, perhaps its best if Air Canada diversifies its Asia routes amongst its two big Asian O&D cities. Furthermore, if AC is going to make a 7th freedom hub as Milty so brilliantly describes it, it needs more connectivity out of YYZ. routes like GRU/SJO/HAV/EZE/etc forget it.

When you check the behavioral patterns of airlines to YVR (transborder mainly for this focus), you see a quick seasonal in and out. Funny how NW goes from 5 flights in the summer to 1 in the winter...

So with this in mind, perhaps AC's wont be getting the best possible bottom line out of its routes, due to network problems in YVR...

YYZ on the other hand, you need all kinds of large equipment for all those routes to work. Im looking at general loads on HKG-YYZ of late (today;s flight is less than half full, same for tommorow), and they really arent that good for AC anyway. CX seems to do a lot better. Even YYZ-NRT is one of those routes that doesnt do so well, and is heavily bulked out in the summer to Japense groups visiting Canada etc. So in this context, I am skeptical also. As for YYZ-JNB.. are you kidding me?

Lastly Martin...if your gonna comment bud, please stop the "We need more for spotters etc." type stuff, I know for sure that your smarter than that  Smile

Mark



 
yegbey01
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:46 pm

Mark,

If AC coordinates its schedules so that the connecting US pax get a relatively short layover at YVR, AC could do well especially if they get a lot of pax from the western states. Forget IAD, BOS and MIA.. I agree they are seasonal and low yield too.

But how do you capitalize on the geographical advantage for YVR. It's an asset that CP utilized a lot more efficiently than AC.

Simply... AC has no clear vision for the future. Let alone new routes out of YYZ

 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:01 pm

Well AC's vision in my opinion is over-ambitious.

We hear about how they are going to expand in Asia etc, and then you hear about the aircraft shortages that they face. So as soon as they are out of CCAA, and have accumulated 4 billion worth of debt for the CRj-705/EMB190, they are gonna go and put themselves further in the hole with A345's/A346's and more 744's? Sounds like they are going right back to where they started off, in a pile of debt.

In terms of YVR, again, their network is small and limited to SFO/LAX/JFK/SEA and star alliance runs to DEN/ORD.

Now in terms of AC;s network to Asia out of YVR, is it not already quite mature? I cant see that much more expansion, besides an eventual link to SYD (but with only 2 A345's, is that possible) and BKK (same question)..

Mark
 
Jayce
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:29 pm

I agree that CP used YVR much more effectively than AC ever has. Mind you, AC has always been a primarily eastern Canadian airline, at least in the eyes of those out west. CP had a huge presence out here, and that may be why it worked for them.

I think if AC were willing to try, they could make a killing taking advantage of YVR's location.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:43 pm

Hey Jayce,

True... but if AC is gonna make a killing, its because there is also a strong local demand for the flights. AC cant make a flight work on transfer pax alone.

When CP operated out of YVr, they pretty much had the status quo. They had YVR-DFW (in co/op with AA one world) and YVR-ORD... nothing more or less.

YVR is in a great location, but if the population/economy was just a little stronger.

Mark
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:35 pm

CP had a developed and extensive western route network, coupled with a very strong public following to feed their international network. While AC inherited many CP western routes, they now face WJ - which more often than not, beats out AC in terms of capacity, frequency and customer loyalty out west. If AC hypothetically had WJ's domestic feed for its international YVR network, I guarantee it would match if not increase CP's success there back in the day.
buhh bye
 
Goose
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:41 pm

Lymanm.... I would go as far to state that AC's comparitively "weak" customer following has allowed WestJet to thrive, particularily into Eastern markets where it's a relatively new entrant, and CP never really managed to 'crack'.....
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
lymanm
Posts: 1100
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:30 pm

RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:52 pm

WJ thriving in Eastern markets? They serve few of the major ones, notably absent the YOW-YUL-YYZ triangle. Until they show they can compete with AC when the April YYZ expansion takes effect, I would hold off on calling them "thriving" in East. "Tip-toeing around AC" would be a more appropriate description of their current eastern network. However, if you replace "east" with "west" you are infinitely more correct.
buhh bye
 
Goose
Posts: 1771
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:40 am

RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:55 pm

I didn't state my point clearly, sorry..... I was merely illustrating that WestJet's growth in markets where AC is the entrenched home-town favourite has been impressive, if not as stellar as their western markets. They've managed to make money in the East, though, which is more than you can say for many entrants who have tried to get into that market - and AC.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Jayce
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:56 pm

True, AC cannot rely solely on transfer pax to justify a route, but look at NW in MSP and DTW. While quite a bit of the traffic is O&D, a substantial amount are connecting pax.

Don't forget, CP also had quite a few routes into California (they code-shared with AS, I believe) and into BOS from YVR.

I agree, CP also had a lot less competition on the domestic front, they left just as WestJet was really getting started.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:07 pm

NW at DTW and MSP have like 50-55% O&D rates.

Out of YVR, there are only a handful of routes which have over 75,000 origin and destination pax to the USA. YVR-SFO/LAX/NYC are the only ones, with ORD coming close.

If AC were to base a fleet of CRJ in YVR then some things could open up. But could AC base CRJs/EMB's in YVR, they are far away from their main bases of YUL and YYZ.

if the CRJ-705 is adopted, I can potentially see YVR-PHX/SNA/SAN.. maybe SJC... but even then, its not like you can add staggering amounts of flights.

Just an aside here, in the newest version of Horizons (AC's employee newsletter), theyve got Montie Brewer saying that AC could use the jet to AUS. I started to laugh immediately, when AC started this route, they were lucky to get 25 pax on the route. They can barely fly CRJ's to DFW and IAH, but they are gonna go ahead AUS....... beautiful!!

Mark
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:18 pm

Let's put things in perspective. AC is in bankruptcy protection and still has a strong chance of shutdown and liquidation, a la Sabena or Swissair.

The only way AC can return to profitability is to continue shrinking to a small profitable core. The days of ambitious intl expansion are over.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
yegbey01
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:26 am

YYZ717,

Well said!
 
B747-437B
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:30 am

The only way AC can return to profitability is to continue shrinking to a small profitable core. The days of ambitious intl expansion are over.

No airline has ever shrunk its way to profitability. The key problem with that is that unit infrastructural costs tend to increase exponentially as their capacity drops below optimum and hence a vicious cycle is created.

The tried and tested way to restructure a carrier operationally (financially is a different ballgame) is a mix of cutting the fat and adding lean stuff in its place. The critical mass must remain the same to properly leverage the infrastructure, but the actual mass should be leaner and meaner and more productive.

In the case of AC it may mean dropping some marginal routes (eg.YYZ-HNL) and replacing them with other routes (eg.YYZ-DEL) that better serve their new model.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
slawko
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Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:05 am

I would say that international expansion is where you will see AC focus, and that the days of ambitious domestic domination are over. Cut out the loss making domestic crap and focus on a core domestic product with low fares serving the major centers only, and expanding the international network. Focus on an SQ type product that will make people from all over the world want to fly your airline from one point outside of Canada to another.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
captaingomes
Posts: 6251
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:33 am

RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:36 am

Slawko, I agree to a point ... while they are cutting their domestic operations, they are investing a lot of money into it, in the form of the new aircraft order. Seems ironic in a way. Perhaps the economics of the new smaller aircraft will more than make up for the added acquisition costs in this shrinking portion of their business. Something is just not 100% right here. Why invest such a sizeable portion of your money into an area that you claim will decrease in importance and where yields have declined substantially?

If the future is in long-haul, I agree with Sean that they must cut the low-yield routes and concentrate on more profitable routes. But this could mean needing different aircraft to take advantage of these possibilities. Will Air Canada successfully be able to take advantage of new international opportunities with their current fleet without sacrificing cargo opportunities? Hopefully they can come up with an intelligent business plan for their international focus ... but they just might need to invest even more money. Where will it all come from?
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
B747-437B
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:37 am

focus on a core domestic product with low fares serving the major centers only, and expanding the international network

I don't think AC has a future with that kind of domestic operation. Their unique selling point is their connectivity from third-tier Canadian cities which quite simply no other carrier has. If somebody in Sudbury for example has to fly another carrier to YYZ and then connect to fly to New York anyway, then the chances of losing that customer to an offline carrier are far more than offering a YSB-NYC online connection. The core market for Air Canada simply has to be... CANADA. Otherwise its just another jet at Pearson with a leaf on the tail.

Focus on an SQ type product that will make people from all over the world want to fly your airline from one point outside of Canada to another

AC can never do this for two reasons - one being labor (including workrules, regulation and costs) and the other being geography. Canada is not poised to be a natural hub for any significant market pair (like Singapore is for Australia-Europe or SEAsia traffic for example). AC's future lies in catering primarily to the Canada O&D market (significant traffic from Asia and Europe) as well as picking up sloppy seconds by undercutting the US carriers in selected market pairs.

[Edited 2004-01-29 17:41:49]
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
martinairyyz
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:33 am

Lastly Martin...if your gonna comment bud, please stop the "We need more for spotters etc." type stuff, I know for sure that your smarter than that

Okay Mark!

Canada is not poised to be a natural hub for any significant market pair

I have to disagree with this as if you want to fly LHR-Tokyo, you pass through North America! If the government puts thing uder control, Canada's aviation industry will flourish as become stronger with time.

Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4394
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:44 am

"I have to disagree with this as if you want to fly LHR-Tokyo, you pass through North America! If the government puts thing uder control, Canada's aviation industry will flourish as become stronger with time."

???? what

 
yegbey01
Posts: 1349
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:04 am

RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:50 am

I guess the big problem here is the fact that canadian Airports are not equipped to handle transit passengers (who need visas to enter Canada).

Can someone from India (a citizen if india that is) transit through Canada to the US withouht a visa to Canada??? the answer is no because YYZ for instance is not equipped to handle transit pax. I don't know about the terminal new? any info on that...
 
flyyul
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:13 am

yegbey,

Not until Canadian inspections services change their way of business, transiting in Canada really is a pain and is redundant all together.

Mark
 
slawko
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:46 am

Nuno, I would argue that the recent order by AC is not to beef up domestic ops, but rather to take greater advantage of Open Skies and entering into smaller US markets, to feed connection traffic to the international network at YYZ, YUL and YVR. Also I would disagree that Canada's geography does not lend it to being a good transfer point. For example YYZ could be and ideal transit point for people coming out of Europe or Asia and going to South/Latin America. AC seems to be trying to take advantage of this right now, with additional services to South America, and supposedly more planned for the near future. YYZ and YVR also both have the potential for being gateways to asia from the US. CP knew this, and took advantage of it, through their partner AA they fed their asian routes out of YVR from DFW, ORD, among others. AC needs to do the same, and I think they will expcially be tapping untouched smaller markets with the new RJ fleet. As mark pointed out some changes need to be made with respect to in-transit pax at these airports, but I understand that at least at YYZ there are steps being taken to make transiting much easier for all passengers. Labour is a different issue all together, but I think that in the next 5 years there will be a major shift in labour with respect to Air Canada, as much of the senior "Sky Hag" generation dies off, and the new younger generation of labour moves in, to work under vastly different agreements. Now as for AC having to focus on the domestic product, and Canadian O&D pax, I would also disagree in so far as, they domestic market does not require anything near what AC's mainline product offers. I'm not saying they need to be taken out of the domestic market all together, but the mainline should only be focusing on the major hub cities, Jazz should be left to feed those major hubs with their much lower operating costs, and better suited equipment. Jazz needs a major overhaul of its focus, a new fleet, consisting of newer turbo-props, and more RJ's replacing the 3 existing types in their fleet is a start. They need access to medium and small markets accross Canada. In doing this Air Canada can remove itself from a low yeilding domestic market, but still have a feed for its international network.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
Jayce
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:54 am

I agree that AC should focus on international routes, and let the likes of WestJet and JetsGo battle it out on the domestic front. I don't think they will, as that will be admitting a certain amount of defeat to the LCC's.

I thought that YVR was able to handle transit pax? I was pretty sure that there was a seperate area that passengers not destined for Canada can wait without having to get a Visa.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" -Homer Simpson
 
B747-437B
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:55 am

I thought that YVR was able to handle transit pax? I was pretty sure that there was a seperate area that passengers not destined for Canada can wait without having to get a Visa.

YVR has a sterile international transit area, but passengers are required to have a visa for Canada simply to use the transit facility as there is no legislation in place to approve partial TWOV yet.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
B747-437B
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:01 am

if you want to fly LHR-Tokyo, you pass through North America

Ah of course. How could I have missed that.  Confused

Also, with the new HKG-YYZ nonstop service it can serve as a hub for HKG-YYZ-DEL connections.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:19 am

No airline has ever shrunk its way to profitability.

Actually numerous airlines have increased their performance by shrinking, among them AC, BA, US, UA, AA, America West.

The key problem with that is that unit infrastructural costs tend to increase exponentially as their capacity drops below optimum and hence a vicious cycle is created.

True, but the key is to cut OH costs as you cut money losing variable flight ops. Ie, if you cut your flights by 10%, fire 20% of managers etc to keep the unit costs dropping. Of course some costs such as facilities etc are harder to cut. but it can be done.






I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:25 am

Shrinking to profitability is a hard thing to do and can leave a company vulnerable, not being able to take advantage of opportunities when things turn around. However, if you look at Air Transat, they are considerably smaller today than they were just a couple of years ago, and they just posted a profit for 2003. But they haven't lost focus and their management has been shrewed in their decisions. Skyservice seems to be hanging in there too, and they're smaller now too.

Air Canada has decided on shrinking domestic ops anyhow, so that's a positive sign. But their shrink comes with a huge pricetag for new aircraft.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
C-GRYK
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RE: Future Of AC's YYZ Network

Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:40 pm

LOL B747-437B!

MartinairYYZ, are you REALLY that dense?

Jeremy
Think before you type!