B777FA
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Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:40 pm

Just FYI....History channel is showing a doc. on the crash of Palm 90 at 11.00 EST.
 
B777FA
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:42 pm

Forgot to mention the title of the program is "The wrath of god"
 
NIKV69
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:57 pm

Man, was that pilot error or what? I have seen it a dozen times but I may watch it..

Thanks..
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
L1011
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:01 pm

Thanks. I programed my VCR to record it with one minute to spare.

Bob Bradley
Richmond, VA
Fly Eastern's Golden Falcon DC-7B
 
NIKV69
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:39 pm

Thank God for people like Lenny Skutnik, Gene Winsdor and Don Usher, three true heroes.

God bless them!
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
necigrad
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:25 am

Palm 90 most certianly was not "pilot error". I don't see how the term "error" could be used. More like gross negligence IMO. Palm 90 was the one that hit the 14th St. Bridge in Washington DC. The crew did not use anti ice, they incorrectly used a DC9's (I think) jet blast in an attempt to not return for more deicing, they didn't return for deicing when the FO commented about ice on the aircraft, and they did not about the takeoff when the engine instruments dind't look right. A true additional factor was the lack of CRM. Had the Captain thought "Hey, the FO know's how to fly, and he's concerned. Maybe he's right" it never would have happened.

Forgive me if I seem a bit bitter. I just went through recurrent for my airlines response team, and saw quite a few videos about survivors and what they've experienced.

[Edited 2004-01-30 02:26:42]
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:51 am

It's also been speculated (or confirmed, I'm not sure) that they did not use all the available thrust they had. Can someone shed some light on this?
 
us330
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:00 am

Yes, they did not use all of the available thrust. If they had, some speculate that the aircraft would have been able to takeoff and climb to cruising altitude with little, if any, problems.
 
aa757first
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:04 am

I thought the guy who forgave the pilot was a Saint! While the other man complained and said "It was all his fault," the other man simply said, "The way I look at it, I'm here and he isn't."

AAndrew
 
FedExDC-10
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:04 am

That is correct. There was ice buildup on the engine sensors that caused faulty guage readings. They thought that the aircraft was set to proper takeoff power, but in fact was not.

FedExDC-10
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:24 am

My question is: If the Captain of Palm 90 had so much experience and in light of that basically disregarded all of the F/O's comments regarding the situation of ice on the aircraft why couldn't he "feel" that his aircraft was not responding correctly or moreover wasn't spooled up enough.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
aa757first
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:26 am

If the passengers were concerned (going as far as assuming a brace position), how come the Captain didn't, as DeltaMD11 said, "feel" the aircraft not responding appropriately?

AAndrew
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:31 am

Also just something that I remembered. Through the CVR on the ground it recorded them going through their final checklist and when the Captain said De-Icers the co-pilot responded with "Onff". The pilot did not ask or double check what the copilot had stated, but Onff is very shady as obviously it can be taken either way (On or Off). Another contributing factor is that the engines ingested a lot of snow pre-departure as the tug was unable to push the aircraft back in the snow storm so the Captain opted to do a powerback.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:48 am

My question is: If the Captain of Palm 90 had so much experience and in light of that basically disregarded all of the F/O's comments regarding the situation of ice on the aircraft why couldn't he "feel" that his aircraft was not responding correctly or moreover wasn't spooled up enough.

The short and simple answer to that question is Larry Wheaton may have had hours but had little cold-weather ops experience and a severe case of "get-home-itis". A very deadly combination! You could put a retiring airline pilot with years and thousands of hours experience to work flying bush piloting in Alaska and, if he isn't familiar with that type of flying, he'll be a dead pilot in a very short time.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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NIKV69
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:59 am

Exactly, no cold weather experience at all, plus in the History channel episode they didn't tell you that the Captain tried to back the plane out of the gate using reverse thrust which sucked snow and ice throughout the engine and the sensors, which is why they thought they were taking off at full power, being de-iced had nothing to do it, that plane would have flown with the ice on the plane if it hadn't had stalled because they were flying to slow. Say what you want, it was pilot error, plain and simple..


Again, God Bless Lenny Skutnik, Gene Winsdor and Don Usher. Courage under the worst possible tragedy..
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Cody
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:31 pm

Here's a little history of Air Florida's Flight 90 from information I have gathered over the years. Captain Larry Wheaton joined Air Florida when his company, "Air Sunshine" was purchased by Air Florida in 1979. He spent most of his time flying DC-3's between Tampa/Miami and the Key West and Marathon and had very little experience flying in winter weather. Air Florida was in the midst of rapid growth and pilots were upgrading very quickly. In fact, Air Florida once flew a DC-10 across the North Atlantic and every single crew member (including the Captain) was under 30 years of age.

The First Officer, Roger Petit, was an ex-military pilot who had experience flying in Alaska. Therefore, I am sure he had some knowledge of winter weather operations. He apparently knew something was wrong because the 737 was using up a lot of runway and was not accelerating like it normally should. Some felt that his military training (Captain is always right) kept him from firmly speaking up. Also on board Flight 90 was a jumpseating Air Florida pilot. He opted to sit in an empty seat in the cabin. Many wonder if the whole scenario would have played out differently had he sat in the cockpit jumpseat.

Back in the cabin, Donna Adams, Marilyn Nichols, and Kelly Duncan were taking care of the 74 passengers. A few passengers expressed concern about the weather, but most were just eager to get moving. The Senior Flight Attendant, Donna Adams, (A true beauty) was planning on leaving the airlines soon. Marilyn Nichols had just found out on Christmas Eve the she was pregnant. She planned on taking a leave of absence and come back after the baby was born. Kelly Duncan was the most junior of the five crew members. Like Captain Wheaton, she joined Air Florida after her company, Air Sunshine, was acquired. As per Air Florida policy, Kelly Duncan and Marilyn Nichols were to sit in the aft jumpseat and Donna Adams was to sit by herself in the forward jumpseat.

Now here's the tragedy within the tragedy. Donna Adams and Marilyn Nichols were best friends and since it would be their last trip together, they decided to sit together in the forward jumpseat. Kelly Duncan sat by herself in aft jumpseat.

As most of you know, when the 737 stalled, its tail section clipped the 14th Street Bridge. The cockpit and forward cabin tilted over and nose-dived into the river. The passengers and crew seated in the front did not have a chance. The tail section separated from the rest of the aircraft. As it hit the water, it did a 180 degree turn and faced the 14th Street Bridge. With the river current moving away from the now open tail section, Kelly Duncan and one passenger were able to escape before it completely flooded. Another passenger was still strapped in his seat and was tangled in cables. Somehow he managed to keep his head above the water. Three other passengers escaped from the last row of the main fuselage that was now submerged in the 26 foot-deep Potomac. All suffered serious bone fractures and hyperthomia.

When the Park Police helicopter arrived, its crew was able to rescue all the survivors except the man who was tangled in his seat. He became a hero, when he gave up his turn, four times, so that the others could get out safely. The 14th Street Bridge is now named after him.

After the crash, Air Florida suffered from a loss of ticket sales. The accident, along with the expenses of operating five Boeing 727-200's are considered the main reasons the company went bankrupt in 1984.

Just to add a little to the story, Kelly Duncan went back to work with Air Florida about six months after the crash and continued to fly until the company's last day of operation. She now works as a school teacher. Two other survivors passed away about two years ago. Ironically, they died within a month of each other.
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:59 pm

What surprises me about this crash is that the crew didn't just "Firewall" the throttles when they saw they weren't climbing. Even the crash investigators found that abnormal. The crew knew they didn't have full power set to begin with(although they thought they had more power set than they actually had) and the logical thing to do in a disastrous situation like that would be to put operating economics etc aside and FIREWALL the engines. If they had done that they could have climbed away safely.
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:20 pm

Cody,

What you touched on with Roger Petit was almost dead-on. While his military background may have played a part in his decision making (or lack of it), the corporate culture at QH also played a big part of it.

Here was a company that was growing by leaps and bounds, had posted umpteen consecutive quarters of profitability and increases in sales quarter-over-quarter, and pilot advancement was rapid. A typical F/O could conceivably go from off-the-street to Left Seat in under 1 year - as long as you were a "play-ball-type". For that reason, many people believe that he went along with Larry Wheaton's obvious gross mis-reading of the engine instrumentation, rather than take command of the situation (as the Pilot Flying the Aircraft) and abort the take-off.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
DeltaMD11
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:32 pm

Max and NIKV,
I know that the Captain had very little winter weather experience. My question poed above was basically taunting the Captains decisions and how he just shrugged off the Co-Pilot in light of his extensive "experience" (if you want to call it that).
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
NIKV69
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Sat Jan 31, 2004 4:21 am

I feel (and you can hear on the CVR) the Captain was basically scared throughout the whole take off, once the got the plane airborne he was even more scared as he was most likely praying that plane climbed out of the storm. Given this he wasn't in a state of mind to process any info given to him from his co-pilot properly, and once he did realize they were about to stall it was too late. I also would like to bring attention to the fact Air Florida went out of business from the law suits brought against them from this crash, well I believe this should have happened to AirTran when they were Valuejet, what happened in that crash was worse and was gross negligence. They should have never been allowed to return.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Sat Jan 31, 2004 4:29 am

I was an Embry-Riddle student at that time in Daytona Beach. I was in the University Center getting some food when the news came on with the live shots of the rescues. Needless to say, we were all glued to the tube and got to see the heroic efforts of Lenny and the others. True heroes indeed!

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Sat Jan 31, 2004 4:33 am

>>>Palm 90 most certianly was not "pilot error".

You're absolutely correct--it wasn't pilot ERROR.

It was actually pilot ERRORS, as they made so many...

MxCntlr,

I have some raw, unedited video of the rescue attempts by the Park Service helo trying to get the survivors out of the water. If I ever get my DVD recorder, I'll transfer it from VCR to DVD for you.

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
fspilot747
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Sat Jan 31, 2004 4:36 am

How Ironic. I was just discussing this not an hour ago with a friend of mine (an airline pilot).

Co-Pilot mentioned de-icing again 5 times, but just wasn't assertive enough. Captain took off, thought he had way more power in the engines than he did, and crashed.

The part that stinks is that all they needed to do was advance the throttles a little. They didn't touch the throttles. If they advanced the throttles to max power, they would have had an out. Unreal.


FSP
 
NIKV69
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:09 am

Exactly, it is sad, the ice on the AC meant nothing, if they had advanced that throttle they would have been fine. TLC had a much better show on that crash, they go into it alot deeper and bring out that the crew was scared to be flying in that weather, had no experience at all. In fact they play an expert from the CVR where they joke they are going to set the throttle to their level of comfort during the take off or according to how scared they were, if you ever get a chance to watch the TLC show, it's much better than The History channel. I have it on tape, good stuff..
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
tommy767
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:58 am

I had midterms last night, so I didn't watch it or tape it. Anybody know when there will be a rerun?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
luv2fly
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RE: Air Florida FLT 90 Crash On History Channel

Sat Jan 31, 2004 9:06 am

I read a report about the FA and the fact that the one choose to sit up front and not in her assigned seat next to Kelly, the outcome could have been different for her.
You can cut the irony with a knife