B777337
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Private Airlines In India To Go International

Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:34 pm

The Indian Government has permitted private airlines to fly all unutilzed international sectors. The lucrative gulf sector has however been reserved for AI and IC. Only airlines having operated domestic routes for more than 2 years are permitted to fly international. That leaves the new airlines like Air Deccan out.

 
B747-437B
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:59 pm

I trust you are basing this definitive statement of "fact" based on an unattributed report in the Times Of India that the MoCA was "considering" a proposal along these lines?

Don't put the cart before the horse.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Mon Feb 02, 2004 1:29 pm

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/469302.cms

Carts and horses aside, the mere fact that Indian passengers now have a choice other than the beaten jerry-rigged nag that is Air India, or foreign carriers, is good news. It creates new jobs for Indians, allows Indian passengers to fly an Indian carrier with crew who speak their language, and creates the possiblity that a private Indian flag carrier will be the kind of emissary for India that Singapore Airlines was for Singapore. And airlines do act as ambassadors- good or bad ! A colleague who recently flew SriLankan airlines with some trepidation to the Maldives, came back saying how wonderful SriLankan was and that she really wanted to visit SriLanka as a result of her interactions with the cabin crew.

While the unions and various governmental bodies have effectively strangled Air India, its commendable that the center sees private aviation as the only way to advance aviation within India.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
behramjee
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:11 pm

From the ECONOMIC TIMES http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articlelist/13354027.cms

The main highlights of these new policies set forth by the Indian Govt are :

1. The government is planning to let scheduled domestic carriers like Jet Airways and Air Sahara operate on all existing unused international routes, except the Gulf sector.

2. The government is also planning to announce a limited open sky policy for the next three years. Under the scheme, it has decided to open up the skies for all carriers, including Gulfbased airlines, to operate any number of flights to India during the peak months of December, January and February every year for the next three years.

3. While the skies are being opened up, preventive measures are also being put in place. For instance, the foreign skies would be opened up for only those carriers who have operated on the domestic routes for two years (so DECCAN AIR suffers here). This rider will prevent any international carrier from setting up base in India and immediately starting overseas flights.

4. It will also prevent a new domestic operator from immediately seeking international routes. The domestic operators would be given unused rights of Indian Airlines and Air-India and the distribution would be done on the basis of their flying record for the past five years. Given the current scenario, only Jet and Sahara will benefit from these new norms.

5. In the new policy, the government has decided to exclude foreign airlines from picking up equity in domestic airlines. The Naresh Chandra committee had recommended that foreign airlines be allowed to take up to 49 per cent stakes. But the proposal has been put on hold since the ministry wants more comments from other parts of the government on the issue. **WHICH MEANS FORGET IT  Big grin

6. Foreign airlines would also get a bag of goodies if the civil aviation ministry’s recommendations are accepted. Airlines from any country can now operate aircraft with 300 seats to India, provided they have bilateral landing rights. The earlier restriction on the maximum number of seats — which varied from country to country — that can be deployed has been dispensed with. In case of American carriers, aircraft with even 400 seats would be allowed.

7. The other major benefit to foreign airlines is the liberal grant of sixth freedom rights which enables carriers to take passengers from India to third countries. As a result of this liberalisation, the need for commercial agreements with Air-India and Indian Airlines will not be necessary for obtaining this facility. Together, the two national carriers earn Rs 330 crore per annum through commercial agreements and this revenue would be in jeopardy. The civil aviation ministry’s proposal is to phase out such arrangements over a period of three years and not insist on them in new bilateral pacts.
 
behramjee
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:18 pm

Btw JET and SAHARA can easily fly B 737NGs nonstop from all the Indian metros to BKK/SIN/KUL and CGK especially from Southern India.

What I would really feel should happen is one of them buying a long haul aircraft capable of flying nonstop from BOM or DEL to SYD or even via KUL/SIN. This SYD route from India will mint $$$ 2-3 times a week on a 250-330 seater aircraft.

Another good option is flying nonstop from BOM/DEL to South Africa (JNB-CPT), Kenya (NBO) and LGW-MAN...now I know that majority of the Indians live close to LHR but UK will not be giving AI slots of LHR so dont expect S2-9W to fare any better...if theyre serious on London...then they will get slots at LGW easily and more quicker and can use a 220-330 seater aircraft on this route...like B 763ER or B 772ER or A 332. MAN is not served nonstop by a scheduled Intl carrier so here's the opening for 9W and S2 to capitalize on before its too late...good routes are MAN-DEL and MAN-BOM 3 times a week each or BOM-DEL-MAN 4 times a week!!!
 
behramjee
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:47 am

Sean and Vimanav what under utilized intl flight rights that are looked upon as lucurative can be up for grabs for 9W and S2 to exploit?

Also apart from NRT-LAX, FRA-LAX, CDG-EWR, LHR-YYZ, LHR-JFK, LHR-ORD and FRA-ORD what other long haul routes does AI have 5th freedom pax and cargo rights which are currently and have never been served?
 
dulleswatcher
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:52 pm

Previous post raises an excellent question. Which unutilized bilaterals would Jet and Sahara be able to use? Anybody know?
Sic Semper Tyrannis
 
B747-437B
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:18 am

Well, as expected (no, I'm not gloating) the Cabinet made short work of this ridiculous proposal and did not approve it. The private airlines can wait another year, assuming 9W can scrape together enough cash to last that long.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1385257/

Interestingly enough, I think the honorable minister Rajiv Pratap Rudy has also sealed his fate and ensured that he won't be invited back to the MoCA after the elections.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
behramjee
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:21 am

Sean...can u please answer my question concerning the under utlized bilateral rights that AI-IC have not fully utilized which can be in the future taken up by JET and SAHARA...thanks
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:16 pm

IC pilots and cabin crew threatened to go on "strike" by wearing black bands if the proposal was discussed. They are demanding that the Govt allow IC to buy more aircraft and ensure that 9W and S2 fly their share of T2 and T3 routes domestically.

Right now barely 10% of 9W's capacity is deployed on T2 ad T3 routes while the corresponding figure for IC is more than 17%. Their argument is that the profits made on intl sectors helps subsidise the losses made on T2 and T3 routes.

IC has also been hampered by an inability to purchase new aircraft. The Govt has been sitting on a proposal to expand IC's all airbus fleet by adding 43 A319/320/321 aircraft to their fleet to replae ageing A300 and B737-200 eqpt.

BTW, my "Mallu network" is telling me that an assoc of Keralites based in CCJ is planning to boycott Air India ad is bringing a resolution to this effect! Wonder what prompted this!

 
B747-437B
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:23 pm

my "Mallu network" is telling me that an assoc of Keralites based in CCJ is planning to boycott Air India ad is bringing a resolution to this effect! Wonder what prompted this!

The Mallus always think that AI is out to screw them.

Good luck flying anyone else internationally out of CCJ.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:08 pm

Those mallus have a point.
If it werent for them, AI and IC would be dead in the water !
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
behramjee
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:12 pm

If Emirates ever turns up or even Qatar-KU etc in CCJ...god help AI-IC with the Gulf market  Big grin

EK will slaughter AI-IC from CCJ with their 3-4 weekly A 332s nonstop to DXB and then nonstop to the other key gulf destinations.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:12 pm

If it werent for them, AI and IC would be dead in the water !

Its a dysfunctional symbiotic relationship.  Big grin
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
TKMCE
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Thu Feb 05, 2004 10:21 pm

Air India is already struggling in Trivandrum and was not even in the top 3 last yearin terms of passeger bookings. What ever little they are getting is due to the fact tht with EK not yet flying to TRV, they have the monopoly on the DXB route.

COK they are sure to loose the top spot this year to Emirates/Oman Air/Qatar et all (As of now none of the three has a daily frequency yet) and it is only in CCJ they have any reasonable share of the market and that too because the foreign carriers are kept out.

And with Air India's schedules on these sectors as well as their services appearing tailor made for the crew and not to the poor passengers, it is no wonder that they loose the business when the passengers start to have a choice.


I flew Qatar a couple of years ago to and from Trivzandrum enroute to UK, and despite the horror stories of all the gulf flights irrespective of carrier being bandied around, found that Qatar was a different class all together. Unlike Air India they do treat the travellers as somebody who is keeping them in the business in the first place and not as some unavoidable piece of incoveneince which has to be suffered to enjoy the perks of ones job.


Sorry if I sound sarcastic, but then the scars of having flown Air India lie deep, a very sad thing to say when it is my national carrier!


 
IndianGuy
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Sat Feb 07, 2004 10:48 am

I dont how much of this is "public", but from what I made of a covnersation between 2 expatriates on the sidelines of the recent Keralotsavam in the city, they are pissed of at AI arbitrarily raising fares during peak season (in this case ex-CCJ but mebbe applicable to COK as well?). So the plan is for some NRI assoc (the local Malayalee Samajams) to charter 200 seat aircraft. Not sure if the Govt would allow AI to be disadvantaged and allow these charters, but there was a lot of resentment. AI is taking one of its biggest customers for granted!

AI as an airline is just a huge corrupt machine running for the benefit of its employees and their extended families How many times before have we read of chidren and grand grand children of AI employees free-loading on AI's scheduled flights? And Govt rules are framed to benefit AI! Bilaterals which belong to the Govt of India, are being "leased out" by AI, the cash going to finance Mr.Big Shot Employees grandsons frequent junkets to Toronto!

I mean the whole affair just stinks! I say shut down AI, and open up the international sector to competition! Let IC, 9W and S2 fly these routes. I am sure they will do a lot better than AI.

-Roy
 
TKMCE
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RE: Private Airlines In India To Go International

Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:17 pm

I have to agree partly to what Roy says. These "grandfather rights" of perpetual ID junkets doesnt make much sense to me. And I cant beleive that all these ID junkets by the conscentious employees are on off season either!

Some airlines I know have embargo periods but not all and as for our Maharajah, any google search will come out with some interesting stories of how the Maharajah's courtiers are eager to enjoy the comforts of royalty even at the expense of the ordinary mortal!

Hope the new chairman can bring in some much needed discipline and not just in staff travel alone.

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