FA4UA
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Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:30 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4107-2004Feb1.html

here we go again! more bad outlooks on US Airways!  Insane

The only common thread between all the aviation discussion forums out there and analysts is the idea of a possible merger with UA. Everywhere I look I see it. Check it out!

Sadly Siegel didn't comment to the Post in this article. He's probably not getting enough sleep at night and missed the phone call.

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:05 pm

Possible merger w/ United...how could that be, I don't see anyone suggesting that. The brutal honest fact here, is the US economy and the other airlines NEED US to go under. There is way too much capacity in the system, its been a problem the last 3 years. There needs to be one less player and the natural laws of economics to come in and figure out the rest.

BTW, how could UAL ever be in a position to absorb US now? There is really nothing common between the airlines.. the Airbuses have 2 different engine types, US does not need CLT, PIT or even PHL w/ SW moving in at this point. Not to mention A330s.... I think what has been agreed by everyone is that except for the Shuttle, prized LGA slots and some gates at PHL, US has very little to offer other carriers.
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Oh and to add to my above post, United has the best kick ass assets of any airline out there right now, LHR, Pacific routes, 747-400s, ORD, SFO, LAX, may I go on...point being all their resources should be directed at keeping this!
 
The777Man
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:22 pm

As a UA employee, I agree with Deltaflyertoo; the less seats out there, the better for the remaining carriers. UA would be in much worse shape if it had to take on USairways. If US went under, it would be great news for United Airlines even if UA don't have the cash to buy any assets.

US employees, hope you guys make it and a lot of things can still happen.

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
FA4UA
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:28 pm

US has the North/South covered up and down the East coast. That is UA's weak spot domestically. Whether it's a proper merger or whether it will be a fire sale, these slots and routes on the East Coast are something UA will be interested in as well as the Carribean flying since we have so little exposure there.

Again I say: Gawd help us with seniority integration if it does become a proper merger (a la second to last paragraph on pg. 3 in the article above).

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:38 pm

LCCs vs USairways is like putting a Black Widow in a jar full of Fire Ants. The Black Widow will fight strong, but eventually the ants will kill it.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:42 pm

True US has a huge east coast presence, but UAL has done so well to this point w/ out the east coast presence. For the industry to stablize, management at all airlines need to realize that to move forward for the foreseeable future, there are going to be holes in their route system. For United that will be east coast. For CO, NW and AA to a lesser extent, that will be out west.

United isn't in its problems now because of a lack of an east coast presence. It was poor management, inefficiencies across the system from pay scales, to pricing to how a/c were utlized. If UAL could fix these things and get to profitiability, it will find it doesn't need east coast.
 
FA4UA
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:50 pm

well said Deltaflyer...

but for those of us (like me) who want UA to be the biggest and have the most comprehensive route structure you're words aren't very inspiring!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:55 pm

FA4UA: LOL! Well someday, you never know! Really, this is an exciting time in the industry that the airlines haven't seen since the late 80s so anything can happen..
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:54 pm


I feel like I am reading about TWA all over again, they sold the LHR slots to American to make cash, and well, the rest is history.
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STT757
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:20 am

UAL is still in bankruptcy, they are not buying anything untill UAL takes care of their creditors debt.

UAL management is not running things alone, the bankruptcy court and their creditors have to approve every decsion of UAL's management.

Why on Earth would anyone allow UAL to use their resources towards anything but restructuring their current operation and concentrating on debt reduction, not happening.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
JAL777
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:41 am

Sadly... it looks like the end is near for US Airways.  Sad
 
captaink
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:58 am

Very depressing, poor US Airways, and all the people I know in the US Airways family...I wish for a miracle, but the likelyhood of it is not great...
There is something special about planes....
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:54 am

The article is correct that unless US unions give on work rules--not pay, which Siegel has said elsewhere he does not want to cut--but work rules, it's the end. By the June 30 credit deadline, probably. *Of course* Bronner is "looking at this like an investor." What other viewpoint should he take? He's got the retirement funds of 230,000 people to worry about!

"Seniority integration." Talk about something that's absolutely untenable in the post-9/11 environment. That prospect alone could prevent other carriers from buying so much as a US A320 spare tire until US liquidates.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
AlitaliaORD
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:08 am

I really hope it dosnt happen because the times i have flown with them, I have really enjoyed their product. But if they did go under, what airline would take Philadelphia and "re-hub" it?
Joy To The World, All The Boys and Girls, Joy to the Fishes in the Deep Blue Sea, Joy to You and Me
 
IAD777
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:22 am

Lower capacity doesn't necessarily translate into less airlines. What we need is real competition in the airline industry and that will lower prices, create less esoteric pricing-route strucutre, and improve airline service.

I personally love UA and as I'm from DC, I don't want to see US Airways go bankrupt, especially because the shuttle is awesome. But let's face it, what plagues the airlines is how poorly run they are, not the fact that are too many of them. Better managmenet and true competition will help solve the problems.

Hope UA emerges from this whole debacle stronger than before and hope it increases its IAD-Europe services.

Cheers
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ltbewr
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:26 am

In other posts, several people give US 4-9 months before going under and I agree. UA and US, was tried before and didn't happen and won't due to UA's bankruptcy, antitrust and that better off waiting for end of US. The problem for US is that they do have a heavy presence in the Eastern US. Eastern US airports have killer ops costs and frequent delays. US has a lot of short flights that are very expensive per seat mile to operate, have heavy legacy costs, high pay structure, tremendous competition from LLC's like JetBlue, Southwest, ATA.
I also think one surprise big gainer from the end of US may be NW as NW in pretty good financial shape, US and NW both use Airbus planes, NW could add eastern and western airport gates and expand service to feed back and forth their system in the upper midwest, pacific northwest, Asia. NW has hubs in DTW and Minn., both airports don't have a lot of traffic problems so could take over some of US's routes too.
 
727LOVER
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:41 am

US Airways has the third-largest presence of any airline.
At LGA, I thought US was the largest.  Confused

The article is correct that unless US unions give on work rules--not pay, which Siegel has said elsewhere he does not want to cut--but work rules, it's the end.

Can you explain WORK RULES? I always see this phrase but have never really understood it.
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
jcs17
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:03 am

As put so eloquently by Happy Gilmore: "So long sucka!"

When you look at the strong measures that have been put in place by US airlines that have successfully emerged from Chapter 11 you realize how weak US was in dealing with their bankruptcy. They allowed their unions to set the rules, the management was not forceful at all in labor negotiations. They didn't slash PIT as much as it needed to be. They were too late in their orders of regional jets and the orders were too small. Express needed to be drastically expanded and in my opinion, US needed to come out with a route map looking like that of Continental where the only cities that got mainline service were ones that could realistically support it. The short sectors aren't a real problem because US had a virtual monopoly in many high-priced northeastern markets. As for going against the LCCs to Florida, US did not go cutthroat in its tactics--as AA and DL have.

One less airline in the US is a very good thing for the rest of the industry. Although I feel sorry for the employees of the company if it really does go under, they can be held partially responsible for electing union officials that took advantage of the weak US management and drove the company into the ground.

I feel like I am reading about TWA all over again, they sold the LHR slots to American to make cash, and well, the rest is history.

The sale of the LHR routes is hardly an auxiliary factor in the downfall of TWA.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:51 am

I also think one surprise big gainer from the end of US may be NW as NW in pretty good financial shape, US and NW both use Airbus planes, NW could add eastern and western airport gates and expand service to feed back and forth their system in the upper midwest, pacific northwest, Asia. NW has hubs in DTW and Minn., both airports don't have a lot of traffic problems so could take over some of US's routes too.

LTBEWR, you've answered AlitaliaORD's question, so I don't have to.  Smile Just a few notes, though. PIT is a goner and CLT is questionable, if US goes Ch. 7. But PHL has real value as a network carrier hub even in the new post-9/11 economic situation. Lots of O & D to support higher-yield transatlantic routes that WN doesn't affect.

727--PiedmontGirl is the best person to answer your question. But I can give a short answer: work rules refer to how many hours pilots fly, how many people of which work group are required by collective bargaining to service a plane, and other issues of productivity. PIGirl can tell some real productivity horror stories about US Airways.

Jim
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STT757
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:22 am

Article in today's Wall Street Journal mentions US Airways is trying to cancel a large regional jet order they placed within the last year or two year ago, the rest they are trying to get transfered to a non affiliate regional operator who may operate for US Airways in the future.
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ssides
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:31 am

From 1988 to 1995, five US Airways planes crashed, creating a major challenge for Edwin I. Colodny and Seth E. Schofield, who were chief executives of the airline.

What were these crashes? The only ones I can remember are the 737 that crashed outside CLT and another 737 (I think) that crashed at PIT.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
N670UW
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:34 am

another 737 (I think) that crashed at PIT

Yes, that was a 737 that crashed near PIT. US 427, ORD-PIT. N513AU was the reg. number.


670
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:35 am

US Airways is trying to cancel a large regional jet order they placed within the last year or two year ago, the rest they are trying to get transfered to a non affiliate regional operator who may operate for US Airways in the future.

Could this represent a possible shift of that order to ACA..errr, Independence Air?  Big grin
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
N670UW
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:37 am

US Airways is trying to get Mesa to pick up part of the CRJ-700 order. The Embraer 170's will still be delivered (if they ever get certified) to US Airways.


670
 
Gregg
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:45 am

737 crash in Pit
737 crash into a commuter in LAX
DC-9 crash at CLT in bad weather.
I think both at LGA: 737 taking off in snow, F-28 landing in snow
 
727LOVER
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:29 am

F-28 was taking off.
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STT757
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:38 am

Yeah US Air got the knick name US Scare after two incidents of their aircraft going off the runways at LGA, DL and CO also had their jets go off the runways at LGA around the same time.
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727LOVER
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:40 am

But DL and CO didn't have fatalities.
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
NKP S2
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:43 am

But I can give a short answer: work rules refer to how many hours pilots fly, how many people of which work group are required by collective bargaining to service a plane, and other issues of productivity

That'll do.


727--PiedmontGirl is the best person to answer your question

Well, maybe so long as the question falls under the purview of flight crews only.

PIGirl can tell some real productivity horror stories about US Airways

Though they ranged from "reaching" to absolutely false. Haven't heard a peep from said poster on the subject following a debate several weeks ago regarding staffing and duties of ground personnel.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1363537/

[Edited 2004-02-03 00:54:34]
 
NKP S2
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:47 am

737 crash into a commuter in LAX

FWIW, that was an incident caused by a traffic controller.
 
klwright69
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:32 am

Yes, US had a spate of unfortunate accidents in a relatively short period of time. But those were a very long time ago. Yeah, I have heard folks say "US Scare" rather recently! But in the mind of most, those are likely long, long forgotten. Now PA 111, that was a different story. That one spectacular and tragic event really did them in, or at least expedited it.

People keep talking about how a major carrier's failure will benefit everyone else. I think too much emphasis is placed on this. Sure that will be the case over the short term, but I can't see how such benefits can last long term. Sure EA's demise helped DL immensely. Braniff's failure helped AA. But these airlines still have problems, and big problems. Now there is Jet Blue, Frontier, and AirTran to give everyone trouble.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:42 am

Though they ranged from "reaching" to absolutely false. Haven't heard a peep from said poster on the subject following a debate several weeks ago regarding staffing and duties of ground personnel.

The thread shows that you questioned a few of her figures; she gave many more figures that you did not challenge. I'm not prepared to throw out her entire detailed descriptions of life at PI and US in several threads on the basis of one situation where some of her info may have been wrong (and for a non-employee participant like me it's a judgment call about whose figures are more plausible). As for not posting for awhile, many of us don't post for weeks at a time(as I don't when school deadlines loom).

That's why it's good that more than one person with knowledge of a situation posts--if she was wrong on some things, another knowledgeable person like you can make sure correct info is included.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
NKP S2
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:22 pm

The thread shows that you questioned a few of her figures; she gave many more figures that you did not challenge

Because I did not disagree with it all, or am familiar with certain specifics, thus I refrain from opining.

I'm not prepared to throw out her entire detailed descriptions of life at PI and US in several threads on the basis of one situation where some of her info may have been wrong (and for a non-employee participant like me it's a judgment call about whose figures are more plausible)

But prepared to accept them entirely based on one posters musings? I had no problem with her posts until I detected a mega chip on her shoulder...and saw all manner of innuendo and info that WAS false supporting those views... Whether by ignorance, or by studiously ignoring, it all comes accross as intellectually dishonest...and will not be tolerated. I hold myself to the same standards and refuse to "reach" even in support of basic ideas I hold if I'm not privvy to the situation. I tend to throw my opinions sparingly. I guess my thesis statement is a paraphrasing from one of my posts in that debate: State an opinion...state it as such, we can debate. Ask a question, get an answer, commmensurate with my ability to answer. Cast aspersions on a subject I have first hand knowledge of ( or anyone else ) and you're ( in the 3rd person ) in for one helluva passionate debate. Due to the very wide exposure BB's like this gets, it's really quite easy for one who can post voluminously to "brainwash" ( for lack of a better word ) laymen, especially if said poster posesses a perceived "halo effect" of _relative_ knowledge or insight. Also, just because poster A posts opinion X 350 times in a month and poster B posts 20 times, doesn't make poster A intrinsically correct.

As for not posting for awhile, many of us don't post for weeks at a time

No argument there, but it IS curious, especially given the sudden quiet right after a veritable explosion in posts in such a short time after joining.

That's why it's good that more than one person with knowledge of a situation posts--if she was wrong on some things, another knowledgeable person like you can make sure correct info is included

Well I certainly hope so, and I'm glad at least _you_ recognize that ( and don't forget PVD757 ). Problem is, to many take posting volume and make into some halo effect that's hard to penetrate. The truth is always a casualty. What did Mark Twain say? "A lie travels halfway around the world before the truth gets his boots on". If one spews falsehoods that WEREN'T rebutted...would they be "true"....as far as laymen are cocerned? I think you see my point and why this is such an issue with me and other "insiders"?

[Edited 2004-02-03 04:33:40]
 
tommy767
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:30 pm

Ugh. Its terrible to see US AIRWAYS go down. They were becoming such a great airline with a brand new fleet. Only if they used better cost cutting methods, and maybe did a better job competing with the LCCs this wouldn't have happened.

"Yeah US Air got the knick name US Scare after two incidents of their aircraft going off the runways at LGA, DL and CO also had their jets go off the runways at LGA around the same time."

I'm remember that nickname. From those crashes, I really have no intention of flying out of LGA  Insane
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
freshlove1
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:35 pm

MESA will take the 700's if the proposition is offered,we have tremendous financial backing so to take on more planes is no big deal. We are adding 1 RJ to the fleet every week so the finance team must be doing a good job. If USAirways goes under MESA will take over USAirways and get everything real cheap through bankruptcy court.
 
PVD757
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:05 pm

If Mesa gets a chance to bid on US's assets, they will get the scraps that no one else wants. They are not going to outbid any of the other players for anything important.
 
freshlove1
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:07 pm

You might be surprised Johnny O somehow comes up with the money needed for what he wants.
 
PVD757
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:10 pm

Johnny O knows one thing: how to fly for someone else. Period. End of Discussion.

P.S. I don't care about "their" service in New Mexico.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:48 am

Yeah, then Johnny O will be looking for someone else to fly a whole boatload of RJ's if US flops.
 
planemaker
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:38 am

We are adding 1 RJ to the fleet every week so the finance team must be doing a good job.

No... BBD is financing the Mesa RJ's because A) Mesa/Freedom is the only airline that will take the CRJ-900 and B) BBD desperately needs to place aircraft to meet sales targets for the financial community.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
SlamClick
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:02 am

FWIW the US Scare nickname has always been there.

There are some people so devoid of imagination or cleverness that they should never attempt to originate anything. But they do. Hence, every airline there ever was with "west" in the name gets "worst" substituted for it. Every one with "air" gets "scare" inserted. Was never funny. Was never original. Is impossible to prevent.

One factor in the woes of some of the older airlines is the insistence by large investors on a return-on-investment more realistic in another age, e.g. before 9/11. These bloodsuckers will still extract their pound of flesh from the operations whether it is there or not.

But that is their holy right. All our laws exist to protect the rich. Sorry USAirways employees, you are going to be sacrificed to protect that ROI.

Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
cloudy
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:27 pm

But that is their holy right. All our laws exist to protect the rich. Sorry USAirways employees, you are going to be sacrificed to protect that ROI.
----

Rich people like a couple hundred thousand pension benefit recipients in Alabama? I'm not anywhere close to rich (I earn less then $10 an hour currently) but I own stock. You better believe I look at the ROI when I choose where to invest what I do have. And so do those who look after the pensions and 401K's of tens of millions of working people all over America. When they don't, or when they take the money for themselves, we call them crooks. As well we should. They would be betraying our trust if they considered the interests of workers in the companies they invest in before the interests of the stockholders.

IN SHORT, those laws you speak about exist to protect property rights. These are rights to money that both the rich and the non-rich have worked hard to earn.
 
freshlove1
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:32 pm

Johnny O. has a back up plan for the RJ's should US go under, its called a UA hub in IAD thats where they will go if US service goes under. Employees may hate him, and most do, but he knows how to make schrewd deals to get the MESA name noticed.
 
PVD757
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:15 pm

Johnny O needs to think about IAD. Air Wisconsin is moving in. ACA is not getting bought out either. Did anyone tell him that ACA owns the commuter gates as well?
 
Matt D
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:17 pm

 
FA4UA
Topic Author
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:12 pm

latest from Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10905-2004Feb3.html

my favorite part from author Steven Pearlstein:

Revive the United merger. The government goofed when it blocked the deal between United and US Airways. But happily there is a small window of opportunity to try it again. United is in the midst of a bankruptcy process while also negotiating for a big federal loan guarantee, which together offer the flexibility and cash to structure a new deal and help rationalize an industry that desperately needs it.

Good to know that I'm not the only one that thinks this! Again though, lord help UA/US if it does come down to integrating seniority! On Paper, or rather on the maps, it looks like a perfect marriage, but it would be a rocky honeymoon for sure!

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
bucky707
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RE: Plan To Save US Airways Falls Apart

Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:32 pm

"Good to know that I'm not the only one that thinks this! Again though, lord help UA/US if it does come down to integrating seniority! On Paper, or rather on the maps, it looks like a perfect marriage, but it would be a rocky honeymoon for sure!"


That would be a very ugly merger. A 17 year pilot at UAL is a 767 captain. A 17 year pilot at USAir is on furlough.

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