richardw
Posts: 3169
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:45 pm

....oh dear


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3453285.stm
 
LBA
Posts: 496
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2000 10:24 pm

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:49 pm

Add < to begining and > at end of address to get a direct link, like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3453285.stm
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:51 pm

Oh dear, where is my pillow ? Let me blub into it for poor Mr. "Cowboy Airline" O'Leary. FR might be a good airline, but he runs it like Delboy would run a minicab company - very dodgy. Him and his "wheelchair levy" - quick 12 million pounds a year for doing sod-all. Nice work if you can get it.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
richardw
Posts: 3169
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:12 pm

Will FR move their planes elsewhere, or will fares to CRL rise?
 
donder10
Posts: 6945
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:26 pm

JG,
you should be grateful of the choice that consumers now have.

Hopefully all public-run airports in the EU will be privatised.
 
kaitak
Posts: 9228
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:36 pm

It's a disappointment, but it could have been worse. I do think it was unfair to penalise an airline and airport for developing new services in a peripheral area. However, what's happened has happened. It's not a crippling blow by any means, but it will mean FR has to look at its strategy and, more worryingly, its January load factor, which has slipped to an all time low (since it went low-cost) of 71%.

I don't think people should be anywhere near tying FR's death cert yet; all airlines (as we all know) have bad days. Jan has been a bad month for FR, but it has very low costs, it brings services to peripheral areas, so the future outlook should be good. The EU ruling, while painful, should (a) not be used as a reason for sneering or glee by those who brought the complaint; conversely, it clarifies what assistance can be given and hopefully, that can be used to grow routes and new markets on a much firmer basis.

There are still many, many European markets which need access and FR has a lot of new markets ahead of it.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:45 pm

I am profoundly grateful for the choice EU consumers now have - it means I don't have to fly FR to get cheap flights - I couldn't be MORE grateful. But other operators have shown how it is possible to operate a low cost carrier effectively and profitably without the need for underhanded business practises or penny-pinching customer service. "Cheap" is all relative - a flight for 50p is very cheap, but so is a flight for EUR50.00, relatively speaking, and if for my EUR50.00 I get a flight that actually goes somewhere near where I need to get to, and with a company from whom I would recieve more than a snarl if I have any issue with the service I received, I know which to choose.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16332
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:01 pm

O'Leary is a brilliant businessman - he takes no shit, he does not compromise and he's as tough as nails. He gets his business noticed, which helps it to become a household name. He fights against carriers and airports which charge too much, which draws attention to his business. He has given a 'face' to the airline, like Stelios did with easyJet. That is very commendable indeed.

Other airlines, including the with-frills carriers, could acquire cheap airport fees - or even make the airport pay them for flying to the airport - if they wanted to fly to in-the-middle-of-nowhere locations, but they don't. As such, they won't receive such incentives. FR wants to fly to such airports so it should be allowed to. It's hardly fair to make FR pay virtually the same fees to fly into CRL as BA would to fly into BRU.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
richardw
Posts: 3169
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:43 pm

...who pays more when BA and FR fly to the same airport? such as GOA, TRN, MPL, FR), Portugal">FAO, AGP. I bet they pay the same price.
 
trident2e
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:38 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:47 pm

Mr O'Leary will be able to repay the amount required by the EU from the cash he's carrying in his wallet! It's nothing more than small change for Ryanair.
 
richardw
Posts: 3169
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:51 pm

But isn't some of that cash reserved to pay Boeing for the next delivery of aircraft, so not all of it is spare.

When is a discount a subsidy and not just a simple discount? ie money knocked off.
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16332
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:54 pm

"who pays more when BA and FR fly to the same airport? such as GOA, TRN, MPL, FR), Portugal">FR), Portugal">FAO, AGP. I bet they pay the same price."

We just don't know, do we?  Wink/being sarcastic
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
trident2e
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:38 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:01 pm

Richardw - apparently Ryanair has more than one billion Euros in cash, so the few million he needs to repay is indeed small change. As for your question when is a discount a subsidy, the answer is when it's not available to all-comers, as in Ryanair's case where it negotiates exclusivity deals.
 
richardw
Posts: 3169
Joined: Tue May 08, 2001 3:17 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:14 pm

How exclusive are the discounts, does the airport have to keep details a secret? or can they offer similar discounts to other airlines?
 
bobrayner
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:03 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:44 am

How exclusive are the discounts, does the airport have to keep details a secret? or can they offer similar discounts to other airlines?

If any airline can collect - and if the bidding process is open - then it shouldn't be illegal.
Cunning linguist
 
David_itl
Posts: 6121
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am


Nice "bonuses" thrown in by CRL according to ITV teletext included £350k a year in crew accommodation and £500k a year marketing promotion as well only the €1 passenger handling charge (which teletext claims should be €13).

David
 
kaitak
Posts: 9228
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:07 am

I think we need to look at the whole exclusivity thing in context.

First of all, when FR began flying into CRL, it was a back of beyond airport; apart from Sobelair charters and the odd training flight, there wasn't much life to the place. If they were going to get business, they had to take risks. They did; they came up with a package, which HAD to be a good package, to attract a low cost carrier in. FR pushed a hard bargain, but they should have. What else would have been expected of them? FR cuts costs so that these savings are passed onto the customer. It's an investment by CRL and the regional authority in the local economy and one which I think has paid off handsomely. It's also encouraging that the regional government is going to appeal this decision.

It's also fair to point out that it took the ECJ over two years to come to a decision, due to the complexity and confusion about the rules. The next stage will be the appeal; the Irish government, which has expressed support for FR, will do whatever it can to temper the EU's decision and hopefully, it can frustrate and obfuscate as much as possible.

Did FR require the deal to be exclusive? Did they NEED it to be exclusive; if not, then why penalise FR. Even without the 15 year exclusivity deal, will any airline go into CRL in competition with FR? Not likely, I suggest.
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:50 am

And when are the subsidies and government ownership of Alitalia and Air France going to end? Is the Czech Republic going to sell off CSA when they enter the EU? I'm sure there are a few more European airlines receiving state assistance.

Let's get government assistance out of all airlines and not single out just one.

[Edited 2004-02-03 20:02:09]
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
bobrayner
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:03 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:21 am

And when are the subsidies and government ownership of Alitalia and Air France going to end? Is the Czech Republic going to sell off CSA when they enter the EU? I'm sure there are a few more European airlines receiving state assistance.

Let's get government assistance out of all airlines and not single out just one.


The EU is strictly against government aid to airlines. Direct aid now is minimal - certainly less than recent aid in the USA - but some countries are trying to retain more subtle forms of aid. This should, and will, end.
Cunning linguist
 
boo25
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:03 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:28 am


YES!! glad to see the smile wiped off that little $@!* face at last .  Big thumbs up

Can't stand MOL .

About time all these subsidies were investigated, and an even ground played on.

Billions of €/£/DM/FF etc... have been poured into the coffers of some of these outfits, while others have had to struggle, and some like swiss etc lose out the hardest way  Sad
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:41 am

What is everyone's hang up about subsidies? Don't you want F/A's, pilots and ground crew to have jobs? Don't you want to fly to new places?

Subsidies have been part of the aviation scene since it first started. Everyone is doing it and everyone is making from it. Subsidies are great as they stop airlines going bust. All the US airlines have all been saved by subsidies. It is a national embarrassment when an airline goes bust. Look at Sabena or Swissair.

Subsidies to national airlines take many forms and we can presume they are used to bolster budgets and fund route development. Forward buying of premium class seats for diplomats, overpaying for military charters, bonds for emergency use in times of conflict etc.

I'm not a fan of Mr O'Leary but he's done a great job getting vast numbers of people into the air. He did a big diplomatic faux pas by buying Boeing and maybe that's the lesson he's supposed to learn from this.

Just mad thoughts.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
bobrayner
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:03 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:17 am

Don't you want F/A's, pilots and ground crew to have jobs?

I want them to have jobs if they can earn a living.

The employees who benefit from subsidies are those that wouldn't earn a living otherwise; this is wasteful.

You could reduce unemployment levels to zero by paying half the unemployed people to hammer nails into planks, and paying the other half to pull them out. Would this be a good use of public money? It creates jobs, after all...

Subsidies are great as they stop airlines going bust

In this context they are life-support, pouring taxpayers money into a bottomless pit. The alternative is to let bad enterprises go broke, so good enterprises can take their place. You get better service, and you pay lower taxes.

It is a national embarrassment when an airline goes bust. Look at Sabena or Swissair.

Would it be less embarrassing to spend your taxes keeping a bloated, inefficient business running the same bloated inefficient systems indefinitely?

It's a national embarrassment when other businesses fail, too. Are you advocating that every inept entrepreneur should get government support?

Forward buying of premium class seats for diplomats

This is unlikely to be a major source of revenue for Ryanair.
Cunning linguist
 
Sjoerd
Posts: 350
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:47 pm

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:27 am

In CLR it was about subsidies given to only Ryanair, not about the subsidies themselves. The real Brussels airport (Zaventem, 10 minutes from the city centre) 40 minutes from CLR was suffering from this. Airlines there were not given subsidies, airlines went bankrupt, people lost their jobs because (not only) FR was attracting the passengers with the money of taxpayers in Belgium. Even more, not that many Belgians were employed by Ryanair, with the subsidies they paid Irish personnel. Of course Ryanair being in Charleroi gave the opportunity to indirect jobs, but hardly that many. Why not invest in BRU Zaventem and have one big busy airport instead of two competing airports. There is already enough competition from other larger European carriers. Virgin express proofs that flying low cost from real airports is possible, without receiving subsidies.
Given the fact that the larger airports are much easier to reach and when you pay no taxes (for a round trip you have to include the cost of 4 transfers to and from the airport), I think it's cheaper to fly from a full-service airport with a low cost airline or even a full-service airline. Except if you live next to a regional airport of course ! Many people are fooled by the low fares, but when you do the math (transfers, taxes, airport taxes) it's not even that low cost.

I am happy with the decision, there are enough airports in Europe. We should concentrate on them.
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
donder10
Posts: 6945
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:07 pm

It's an investment by CRL and the regional authority in the local economy and one which I think has paid off handsomely. It's also encouraging that the regional government is going to appeal this decision.

Exactly.The Wolon(sp?)government is not too happy to say the least about the decision.Isn't CRL in the middle of getting a new terminal?


Sjoerd,
your examples are completely disingenuous.

Of course Ryanair being in Charleroi gave the opportunity to indirect jobs, but hardly that many
The contributions of injections of money to the local economy that Ryanair created far exceeded their subsidies/charge breaks,hence why the local government is a little worried about the decision.


Airlines there were not given subsidies, airlines went bankrupt, people lost their jobs because (not only) FR was attracting the passengers with the money of taxpayers in Belgium.
Are you seriously saying this?Sabena was a basket-case it's entire existence.The subsidies given to Ryanair are a piss in the ocean compared to those that Sabena received over its life.To say Ryanair helped to destroy passenger numbers is wrong because
a)those numbers were artifically high to the subsidies to Sabena
b)Ryanair from CRL had very little routes they competed with Sabena on.


Why not invest in BRU Zaventem and have one big busy airport instead of two competing airports. There is already enough competition from other larger European carriers. Virgin express proofs that flying low cost from real airports is possible, without receiving subsidies.
Why is Belgium so averse to competition?The 2 airports also target 2 different market segments.Virgin Express may call itself a low-cost airline but it's CASM is quite a lot higher than the real LCCs ,even Easyjet who fly to major airports as well.


 
Sjoerd
Posts: 350
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:47 pm

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:44 am

Donder 10 :

I never spoke of Sabena, I talked about the post Sabena period. (Delsey and Sobelair went bankrupt, no competition for Ryanair, but why not subsidies them ?) Ryanair is taking passengers from SNBA and Virgin. I am not against subsidies or competition, but it must be fair.
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
GDB
Posts: 12883
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:00 am

MOL is mouthing off saying this is the end of LCC's in Europe, while the other LCC's say that it will not.
He's had it coming.

 
donder10
Posts: 6945
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:29 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:36 am

Ryanair is taking passengers from SNBA and Virgin. I am not against subsidies or competition, but it must be fair.

What routes do FR compete on with SNBA and Vex?Very few.


MOL is mouthing off saying this is the end of LCC's in Europe, while the other LCC's say that it will not.
He's had it coming.
LOL when isn't he?Some EU diplomats have said that his agressive stance might have affected the outcome to some extent.
 
boo25
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:03 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:41 am

Too right GDB, he's the most contemptuous irksome airline CEO i've ever seen on TV , and now his underhand funding methods have been discovered and revealed.

He's so quick to put down the majors saying they can't make money , and now he's moaning because some of his funds come not from his passengers but a 'gentlemans handshake' from other countries.

Well, now he can go and shake hands with himself Big grin
 
AApilot2b
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:38 pm

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:43 am

I think Kaitak gave a very fair response to this situation. As far as I understand it, Charleroi (and the surrounding area )benefited greatly from this agreement and the increased business is brought. They made the deal, and they should be free to make such deals (it is good business). If an airport wants to attract business in to its region by offering a competitive airline benefits, they should be allowed to do that without the EU's meddling. Shame on the EU! They need to stop trying to be an "ED" (European Dictatorship).  Wink/being sarcastic
 
LJ
Posts: 4342
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Thu Feb 05, 2004 4:17 am

If an airport wants to attract business in to its region by offering a competitive airline benefits, they should be allowed to do that without the EU's meddling.

Thus you wouldn't mind if the Belgian government would give SNBA a large amount (exclusive deal to SNBA) to "attract business into its region"???? Everybody would jump saying that this shouldn't be happening (we've heard all the arguments before) and thus probably have double standards. But then again, SNBA doesn't offer these peanuts fares which some on this forum think they're entitled to (even if this means breaking the law).

It's very easy to complain about EU interference when it costs you more money, but I'm 100% sure when someone breakes a law and it will cost you money you would think otherwise. Oh yes before I forget, the EU law which Ryanair broke did increase competition and do make sure you can buy many products for less than before. Moreover they made/make your government doesn't waste money on companies which should be declared bankrupt and thus create a healthy competitive playing field.

 
bobrayner
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:03 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:29 am

Would anybody want to go to Charleroi if flights weren't subsidised?  Smile
Cunning linguist
 
babybus
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:07 am

RE: Ryanair Charleroi Rules Against FR...

Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:42 am

Without Ryanair flying into places like Charleroi, Erfurt and the rest they'd be a lot of empty shops and restaurants and people on the dole.

These towns are paying for productive, active economies but you'd like them to be paying out on state benefits for people to sit at home staring out the window, watching TV and getting depressed.

If the EU were right they would have ignored these payments and kept people working.

Just more crazy thoughts.

and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.

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