AA787
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DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:22 am

How does DL manage to fill all of those 763 to various European destinations? They have very little feeder traffic into JFK.

AA787
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juanchie
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:26 am

Don't forget about the planes that fly in to JFK like Alitalia and Aeromexico that technically are delta flights too! Although I don't believe there are that many mainline flights there, i know they have upped the service using comair. When I came back from Italy, I flew through JFK on Alitalia, connected on Delta to ATL and off to JAX. I would imagine this is pretty rare but it was a bargain and I can tell you first hand the Delta part of the concourse was packed. Hopefully someone else can enlighten us on how Delta feeds their flights to Europe.
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B747-437B
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:30 am

Do you really think that the NYC market requires a bunch of feeder traffic to sustain international flights???
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LambertMan
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:32 am

They have been adding alot of Connection service into the airport, and with the recent expansion announced it should even further help keep the loads heavy (by saying keep i'm guessing they are heavy loads). I know that JFK loads from STL have done pretty well in the past and its due in large part to the european connections available through JFK since we no longer have LGWBig thumbs up
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:32 am

New York is the world's largest and most lucrative O&D market, not to mention, one of the biggest airline markets globally. Therefore, Delta has relatively little trouble filling its JFK to Europe flights. Second, as the third biggest airline, Delta has a sizeable share of the corporate travel market, even in these much leaner times. Lastly, Delta code shares with Alitalia, Air France, Aeromexico, Korean Air, and CSA. Delta can provide feed into these airlines hubs in Paris, Mexico City, Seoul, Milan, Rome, and Prague.

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STT757
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:32 am

NYC is a City of 8-9 Million People, when you include everyone within the Metro Tri State area (Long Island, Northern New Jersey, Westchester, Rockland, Orange Counties, Fairfield County Connecticut) your talking 25 million people.

It's all O&D, meaning the majority of DL's Trans-Atlantic travelers either live in the Tri State area or are visiting the Tri State area from Europe.
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AA787
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:39 am

I understand what all of you are saying...I live in the metro area. Its just that everyone makes a huge deal about feeder traffic and it seems that DL is lacking that at JFK for the most part.

AA787
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DeltaMIA
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:40 am

It also helps to be the only US carrier on some routes such as VCE, ATH, IST, SVO, NCE.

It also didn't hurt to have inherited an established operation on these routes as well.
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rjpieces
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationa

Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:57 am

Plus the 763 is perfect for DL's JFK Transatlantic flights.
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Thrust
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:04 pm

New York is a huge city, where many people go overseas to from Europe for business. Do not underestimate New York. It is also a huge city where much of the population goes to. The demand for flights from JFK to Europe is high, since it is one of the most worldly cities of the U.S. Big grin
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STT757
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:10 pm

"Its just that everyone makes a huge deal about feeder traffic and it seems that DL is lacking that at JFK for the most part."

This is true for places like Atlanta, Detroit and Cincinnati, where the Cities themselves would not be able to support the route networks that their hub airports operate.

However large markets like Los Angeles and New York do not need feeder traffic, the majority of the potential passengers are withing driving distances.
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MAH4546
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:24 pm

New York is the world's largest and most lucrative O&D market

Tokyo is a larger O&D market.
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rjpieces
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationa

Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:29 pm

Also keep in mind that most of the routes DL serves are served by other carriers as well. So beteen everyone, there is ALOT of capacity between NYC and Europe.

STT757, just wondering, would you consdier a person going from FCO-NYC via FRA on LH O&D? As long as they are not connecting in NYC, they are O&D right?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:41 pm

He'd be O&D for NYC and ROM, but not FRA
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STT757
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:42 pm

O & D stands for " Originating" and "Destination".

So their destination is NY, it doesn't matter how many connections they make.

If their NY's heading someplace out of town, they are on the originating end.

O&D means people who either begin or end their trips at a certain place.

Atlanta for instance has a heavy amount of connections, meaning people fly through Atlanta to go someplace else. Atlanta is not their home nor their destination, they are just connecting.

In NY few people connect, because of it's location geographically and because of the heavy O&D traffic.

CO has been an exception, they have a rather large hub at EWR. Even with CO's EWR hub it's overwhelmingly served by passengers who either live in the tri-State area or are visiting the tri-State are.

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SESGDL
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 7:22 am

STT757,

Nearly 45% of all traffic at ATL is O&D. ATL is a big O&D market, 7th biggest in the country.

Jeremy
 
petazulu
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 7:39 am

"NYC is one of the most worldly cities in the US". LOL!
Who would be more worldly? My guess is 60%+ of all O&D trans-Atlantic traffic begins and ends in NYC. Just a guess- but its probably not to far off. NYC is the most European city in the states and has the largest ex-pat communites to Europe, etc.

Sorry if I sound too pro-New York, but lets not downplay it size and importance.
 
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STT757
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 7:46 am

"Nearly 45% of all traffic at ATL is O&D"

45% is miniscule compared to places like EWR, JFK, LAX etc..

Which was the point, ATL is more dependent on people connecting from elsewhere to fill International routes than people who are actualy living or heading to ATL.

The City of Atlanta itself could not support a fraction of the International routes that Hartsfield supports without connecting passengers, it's not a knock on Atlanta.
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DeltaMIA
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 8:01 am

45% is still a lot of O & D though. That is what about 15-20 million people a year. That is more than a lot airports total travelers. Have you ever seen DL's International Lobby at around 3:30-4pm, it is ridiculous.
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jfklganyc
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 8:28 am

AA787,
Last time I checked, DL has a pretty good feed into JFK from throughout the U.S.

BOS, PHL, DCA, PIT, Norfolk, RDU, SAV*, JAX, Greensboro*, MCO, TPA, FLL, PBI, ATL, DFW, STL, ORD, CLE, Columbus, DTW, DEN*, PHX, SEA, SFO, LAX, SAN*, Toronto.

I'm sure there are others. But like I said, a pretty good feed. Much better than American, which still manages to fill there 777s to LHR and CDG.

Just a different persepective I guess.

PJ
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 8:33 am

My guess is 60%+ of all O&D trans-Atlantic traffic begins and ends in NYC. Just a guess- but its probably not to far off.

Your way off, IMO. The figure is most definitley closer to 30-35%. You still have huge trans-Atlantic O&D markets, like WAS, MIA, BOS, CHI, SFO, and LAX. No way NYC account for that much.

[Edited 2004-02-06 00:33:57]
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STT757
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 8:46 am

I just checked the Port Authority's website for airport statistics..

Total O&D for both Domestic and International (they did not separate Domestic from International)

Laguardia= 92% O&D traffic

Newark= 78% O&D traffic

JFK= 67% O&D traffic.
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SESGDL
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:12 am

But don't forget, ATL handles more than all those airports. Let's multiply:

Newark's PAX # by .78% = ~28,000,000
ATL's PAX # by .45 = ~32,000,000

Therefore, ATL is a higher O&D market than EWR, though NYC has three airports. 45% of 70,000,000+ PAX a year is a HUGE number.

Jeremy
 
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:30 am

Therefore, ATL is a higher O&D market than EWR, though NYC has three airports.

No, it's not. Atlanta is a larger O&D airport than EWR, not market.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:37 am

if it's O&D numbers you want, peep this thread  Big grin

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jfklganyc
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:39 am

If u r going to compare markets, u must combine JFK, LGA, EWR into one market and then compare it to ATL. It's not fare (and its looking at it in a slanted way) to say that ATL is a bigger O&D city then EWR because EWR is part of a system. ATL is not!
 
Thrust
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 9:56 am

Keep in mind these loads for Delta will grow larger, as everyone knows Delta plans to increase the size of their hub at JFK.
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cedarjet
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:18 am

Delta's JFK service to Europe serves New York and the surrounding area, and that's it. There may be some Delta flights into the airport from other parts of the US (some transcon, some Florida, Atlanta) but they're not feeding the trans-Atlantic routes. Have any of you (except B747-437B) actually been to NYC?! This is a bigger market than some of you realise.
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flyguy1
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:45 am

Cedarjet:
Of course many of the passengers on Delta's European flights from JFK, are from the NYC area. But a good amount of connecting passengers are also brought in via DL' many domestic flight's.
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DeltaMIA
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:47 am

What do you mean they aren't feeding the transatlantic system. That is why all of DL's destinations from JFK have at least one flight that arrives around 5 and leaves at 5-6pm. It is because that is the time of the transatlantic bank. DL Operates two 767-300 ATL-JFK simply because it brings people from the international flights to DL's Worldport for even more destinations. Also DL operates a 767-300 from JFK-CVG at that time to feed passengers into that hub as well.
DL doesn't operate JFK-ATH, NCE, VCE, SVO, IST simply on NYC's O&D. If that were the case then other airlines would fly those routes as well.
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FLAIRPORT
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RE: DL: How Do They Fly Full From JFK Internationally?

Fri Feb 06, 2004 12:37 pm

DeltaMIA...you stole my point!

People from a city with a lack of intl. service will tend to double connect, I think...

so, DL from SAN-SVO, for example, have a few options:
SAN-ATL-JFK-SVO
SAN-CVG-JFK-SVO
SAN-LAX-JFK-SVO

SO, they DO get a lot of connecting traffic!
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