KKMolokai
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AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:49 pm

I was in a meeting yesterday in DFW, and was advised of the following AA fleet updates:

A300 - Accelerated retirement (2008-2012, down from 2013).

767-200 - Those a/c currently in temporary storage will be permanently grounded and/or cannibalized.

TWA 757 - Will be returned (early) to lessors.

737 - Telephones will be removed and scrapped.
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
727LOVER
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:54 pm

And what will replace the A300 and 767-200? No MD-80s going?
Love Trumps Hate
 
scottysair
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:55 pm

This is very long way to go with A300 aircraft and will be retires in 2008 or mid 2012. I am not sure eith way that would be leave with their fleet. What are you guys about orders with more new airplanes in near of the future. Thanks!
 
AA787
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:59 pm

I thought they were going to bring the 762ER's back.

AA787
ET In NYC
 
ordpark
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:08 pm

Very interesting.....I can understand to A300's and the 767-200's. But the TW 757's are a bit of a surprise....I guess the PW engines are too bad a mix with the RR engines....Any word on what they intend to replace all that capacity with?
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:17 pm

Ordpark,

Yes, the return of the TWA 757s is due to the engine difference. It isn't cost effective to have two different engine types.

No word yet on what will replace the A300, 757s and 767-200s leaving the fleet.
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
ordpark
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:26 pm

HMMMM. UA sure could use some more PW powered 757's!!!
 
Alitalia744
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 07, 2004 4:39 pm

Well with the Airbii going back starting 2008, the 762's being grounded, and a reduction of the 757 fleet, maybe AA is interested in the 7e7?

After all, it will be able to fill all of those aircrafts roles..
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
LHR001
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 07, 2004 4:55 pm

What will American Airlines replace the SFO-JFK, SFO-BOS, LAX-JFK, LAX-EWR, LAX-BOS, LAX-IAD 767-200 equipment with?


What is the long term plan for the MD-80 fleet with American Airlines?



LHR001
 
AMM744
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 07, 2004 11:01 pm

Long Term plan at AA seems to be smaller is better, perhaps the East/West Coast runs will have CRJ-200's, then in 2013 when the A300's have gone they can be replaced with ultra high density ATR-72's !

Way to go AA.

 
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STT757
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 07, 2004 11:38 pm

"SFO-JFK, SFO-BOS, LAX-JFK, LAX-EWR, LAX-BOS, LAX-IAD 767-"

A combo of 757-200s and 767-300s,

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
luv2fly
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 07, 2004 11:41 pm

It said the 767-200's that are currently parked as being the ones effected, I take it the ones presently flying are staying around?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:22 am

Luv2fly, you are correct, just the 762s currently in storage are being scrapped (at this time).

AMM744, Eagle utilizes the CRJ700, not the -200, and the ATR's will soon be flying the transatlantic & transpacific routes, and therefore the Saab's will be used on the transcons instead.  Smile
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:29 am

In the past AA has not been ashamed to pick up compatible aircraft on the used market..Some Dc-10-10 came from the original National/PAA in a fleet swap and some DC-10-30s were picked up here in there also as I recall.

I would love for AA to be a launch customer for the 7e7. I am bit surprised about the Airbuses because the A-300s only came on from the very late 80's until about 92 as I recall. Perhaps there is some MX issue on the horizon?

For now though, those are cash machines for AA and the cargo capacity is outstanding to the Caribbean Basin destinations.
 
AA737-823
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:54 am

Also though, we have to remember that the TWA 757-231s (actually, they're 2Q8's) are not owned, but leased. The lease was transferred during the takeover, but the point is that the leases run out at some point. Perhaps this is just a statement that the leases will not be renewed? Or is it that they are being terminated early?

The A300s need to go. They're going to be the oddball in the fleet, after the Fokkers are gone.

What does this say about AA's long-term strategic plan? Shrinkage over the next decade?

Oh, someone said that he bet United would love to pick up some PW powered 757s. In response to that, I'd say United would love to pick up a ten- dollar bill these days. Worry about new 757s when you can fly the ones you already have. I'm still pulling for them.

R
 
greaser
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:02 am

AA737-823, you're right, the a300s will be the oddball soon.
Though, i doubt AA has the cash right now or soon to be the launch cust. for the 7E7. Maybe they can go for the last 7e7 model?
But when the order the 7e7, i see another 777 order, possibly an upgraded 777-200ER or a 777-300ER
Now you're really flying
 
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STT757
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:17 am

AA's goal is to reduce the size of their fleet and the different configurations, A300s do offer nice revenue from cargo etc. However they are also a burden because they are not compatible with any of AA's other aircraft, read this article from yesterday's New York Times Business section:

"American's CEO lauds Southwest

Big airline's plans are modeled after rival's 'better paradigm'


11:48 PM CST on Thursday, February 5, 2004


By ERIC TORBENSON / The Dallas Morning News



NEW YORK – American Airlines Inc.'s chief executive, Gerard Arpey, praised rival Southwest Airlines Co. on Thursday, saying his company's new thinking emulates what Southwest has done for years.

"One of the reasons Southwest is so successful and has such high customer service ratings is that they promise a product that is very simple and deliver on that promise very consistently," Mr. Arpey said. "It's a better paradigm ... and that's where we need to move."

Mr. Arpey's comments to analysts at a Wall Street conference represent another significant change in the corporate mindset of the world's largest airline.

Southwest has been profitable for three decades by using one plane type and offering a no-frills point-to-point schedule.

American's system has been far more complex. Just a few years ago, American flew 14 types of planes with 35 configurations, Mr. Arpey said, as part of a strategy to put the right planes in the right markets to bring in the most revenue.

But complexity came at a high cost. As business travelers have grown more cost conscious, discount carriers such as Dallas-based Southwest have gained momentum. In response, American has been simplifying its operations since 2002 by cutting the number of types of aircraft it flies, streamlining its schedule and scrutinizing its processes to squeeze savings.

By September, American will have just 5 types of aircraft, Mr. Arpey said. The carrier would move faster to simplify its fleet if the task weren't so expensive, he said.

"The more complex your operation is, the more chances you have in disappointing your customers," Mr. Arpey said at the morning conference, sponsored by Goldman Sachs.

The Fort Worth-based carrier continues to rethink how it sells itself to customers, Mr. Arpey said, but wants to be sure it has services to offer that fliers will pay more for. American has no plans to drop its first class cabin, for example, because its best customers value the extra legroom and other services, he said.

American will use its frequent flier program to increase revenue, but Mr. Arpey said he thinks the program's mileage bonuses and incentives are a bit "too liberal." He said he hopes that a strengthening economy and airline industry will let the airline "tighten them up a bit."

The good news is that American's financial recovery continues to take shape. American hopes its costs per seat mile flown, a standard measure for airlines, will be 17 percent lower in the current quarter than in the first three months of 2003, Mr. Arpey said.

"We must keep pedaling as hard as we can," he said.

Some factors are making American's recovery more of an uphill ride. Health care costs for current and retired American employees run as much as $350 million annually. Competitors and newly created airlines such as JetBlue Airways Corp. have little or no expense for retirees, Mr. Arpey said.

Stubbornly high fuel prices will continue to eat into American's bottom line. The carrier has used financial markets to hedge some of its fuel needs for the current quarter, but it has significantly less fuel pre-purchased at lower prices for the rest of the year.

Still, analysts have generally cheered American's overall job of reducing expenses, which are now lower than at Houston-based Continental Airlines Inc.

With leaner costs, American can now flex its muscle against both its traditional foes and the surging low-cost carriers.

"If we face carriers such as JetBlue that come into our markets, we can defend them with all the tools available to us," Mr. Arpey said.

But analysts are concerned that when American and JetBlue compete on a particular route, JetBlue is winning customers in part because it has satellite television in each of its seats. JetBlue offers no first class service or meals.

American has studied adding such systems to its fleet of more than 700 planes, Mr. Arpey said. But for now, it's focused on adding power ports on its planes to let travelers use their computers for work or for watching movies.

"You really have to ask yourself how much we are going to spend on that kind of technology on the airplane when people are bringing it on themselves," he said.

Shares of American parent company AMR Corp. rose 23 cents to close at $15.63. "
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
luv2fly
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:27 am

This is all good news and IMHO - it seems like they are looking at the big picture for recovery, as opposed to lets put it to the business travelers for money to fix our problems.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
AMM744
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:40 am

"AMM744, Eagle utilizes the CRJ700, not the -200, and the ATR's will soon be flying the transatlantic & transpacific routes, and therefore the Saab's will be used on the transcons instead".

I wouldn't be a bit surprised...
 
Thrust
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:51 am

Delta could also use some more Pratt-powered 757s, as well as NWA. If only AA was willing to spend the money to retrofit the ex-TWA 757s with Rolls Royce engines. It's so sad they have decided to catalyze the retirement process of them, as AA is my favorite airline only because TWA lives on them. The ex-TWA 757s' departure from the fleet is truly a bummer indeed. It's also disappointing to hear the AA 762s and 762ERs that are grounded will not be reactivated. Even more depressing is the news that the A300s have less than four years to go before the retirement process begins.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
airways6max
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:11 am

The A300 has no fleet commonality with the rest of AA's fleet; that aircraft should have been retired long since. AA has a glut of 757s, which can take over the 762's operations without much trouble, along with the 763. TWA's old 757s have little commonality with the rest of AA's 757s. Probably cheaper just to return them to their lessors. Clearly, AA has realized that its fleet is too big and has too many variants of aircraft. It's trying to reduce its fleet and standardize.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:28 am

Hey

The American Aibus-300 is manilly used on flights to the Caribbean. That is really the only use of the planes. Becuase so many people want to go to the Caribbean they opperate a plane like the A300 that can carry a lot of people. Latley the caribeean routes have been opperated by the:

777
767
757
A300. Basiclly there whole fleet visits the Caribbean. The 737 pulled out of the Caribbean same with the super 80s. I find it interesting that AA is dropping the TWA 757s becuase yes the TWA 757 uses different engines, but there are only what six TWA 757s in the AA fleet? I think that AA is the largest 757 opperater. I think that id they want to keep that record they should just change the engines on the TWA engine. It would probally cost a lot of $$$$$ thoe. I think that AAs New flight should be:

Main Fleet
B777-200ER
B777-300ER
B757-200
B757-300(before it is two late)
B767-300
B767-400ER
B7E7
A330-200ER

AA Eagle

ATR-72
ATR-42
CRJ-700
ERJ-145
ERJ-135
ERJ-170.

I know that AA is trying to down size there fleet but i think these planes would fit nicley in there fleet renowel planes.
No Vueling No Party
 
qqflyboy
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:29 am

A little more clarification on the 762s...

AA grounded its 767-200 (non-ER) models. All 767-200ER aircraft are flying the transcons, and as we saw a few days ago, as subs transatlantic. I am not sure how many there were, I remember eight non-ER 762s, but that's just my guess. I may be wrong.

Good question about the MD-80s though. There are quite a few sitting in the desert (former TWA). I wouldn't be surprised if they were left there too because of the interior differences. It's a headache for catering and the flight attendants, because none of the equipment matches AA's. And besides, the MD-80s in the desert are among the oldest in TWA's fleet.

Perhaps AA is trying to get into a position of fulfilling their current order with Boeing. There are still outstanding orders for the 777 and 738. AA has flown the 777 from BOS to SDQ in the past, and perhaps with more 777s in the fleet, they could replace some of the high density routes to the Caribbean with those and the newly reconfigured 763s.

The TWA 757 leases are up in 2007, so we should still see them for a few more years. AA only has 16 left... there were over 30 in September, 2003. Sad thing is, from a flight attendant perspective, we love that 757 ten times more than the AA 757. We like having eight doors as opposed to six and four exit windows, we like the aft lavs at 3 L/R instead of 4 L/R (more room for F/As in aft galley) and the video system. The only flaw is the first class coat closet is a joke!

Here's a thought: now with the 757s back to LRTC, if AA takes out the lavs, they could add a few more rows, allowing capacity to become more aligned with the A300.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
Guest

RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:36 am

As of August of 2003, looks like 9 B767-200s (non-ER) on the roster. One in 9/30/119 config (ship 312) and then ships 301-308 in 9/30/121 config.
 
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solnabo
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:51 am

AA should get the A320/321 and why not A330X for its fleet update?
"whatever you´re size we got it"
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Michael//SE
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STT757
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:53 am

AA may at some point order 737-700s to begin replacing M80s, possibility but not for a few years.

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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yyz717
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:35 am

The TWA 757 leases are up in 2007, so we should still see them for a few more years. AA only has 16 left... there were over 30 in September, 2003.

Actually, there were only 27 TW 752's.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ordpark
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 6:56 am

AA737-823,

UA comes out of BK in June - tremendous progress has been made and they will be a very lean operation. We're not in as bad a shape as a lot of people wish we were. Airbus has reportedly approached us about a resumption in deliveries (Although, personnally, I'd rather have Boeings)...Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about AA.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:04 am

I didn't read all the above posts so don't know whether this was mentioned, but the A300 carries a nice amount of cargo - which is an important consideration, just like passenger capacity. Accordingly, its replacement would need to carry similar quanities (unless its forecast long-term demand is such that it warrants less or indeed more).
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Thrust
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:17 am

The 737-700s, while more fuel-efficient and longer-range than the MD-80, do not provide an adequate replacement because their passenger capacity is not even close to that of the MD-80s. The 737-900 would make more sense for an MD-80 replacement.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
cloud4000
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:30 am

Actually, the 737-900 would be a great replacement for MD-80s and 757s, on certain routes. And the 7e7 would be a great replacement for 757s and A300s, as well.
Boston, USA
 
KKMolokai
Topic Author
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:01 am

Qqflyboy,

The TW 75s are being returned EARLY to their lessors.
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
motech722
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:17 am

Ahh, the airliners.net rumor board, I love it. KKMolokai, I was just curious if this information has any hard evidence to it or if it was just "discussed" in a "meeting". I mean no disrespect, just curious is all. From my understanding on the A300 fleet is that it is a cash cow, carrying a large amount of frieght and people in the Carribean. I'm just curious if there is talk about retiring these aircraft what might replace it, as I doubt that AA would simply abandon this lucrative market?
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:46 am

Motech722,

These facts are not rumors. The information was provided by senior management on a power point presentation just days ago in DFW.
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
ckfred
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:56 pm

The one thing that I notice is that the largest Eagle plane is the CRJ with 70 seats and the smallest AA plane, after the Fokker retirement, is the MD-80 with 129 seats.

That is gap of 59 seats that, at some point, needs to be filled.

I was looking at the AS website and noticed that their 737-700s have 120 seats, 12F and 108C. Assuming that AS does not have a coach seating configuration similar to MRTC, that would mean a 737-700 for AA would have 96 seats in coach. With 12 seats in First, that would be 108.

Could the 737-700 be the Fokker replacement? Certainly it's more plane than the Fokker in a MRTC configuration of 87 seats, but the 737-700 would be a far more flexible plane than the Fokker. And it would be easy to add the plane with the 737-800 in the fleet.

Granted, AA needs sustained profitability before it can go plane shopping. But I don't think it can replace Fokkers with either RJs alone or a mix of MD-80s and RJs indefinitely, particularly if competitors, whether legacy or LCCs, are using only mainline jets.
 
geg2rap
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:11 pm

AA should get the A320/321 and why not A330X for its fleet update?
"whatever you´re size we got it"

Hmm maybe except for that pesky exclusive agreement with Boeing, so wet your mouth all you want but whatever mainline they get will be Boeing Boys

E-170...doesn't make much sense to talk about fleet simplification they bring a plane in with the same (ok 8 seats more) use

Maybe E190 for the 100 seaters, but I think almost everyone will have one of those if B6 makes them work
GEG2RAP Going GEG-SEA-MSP tomorrow  Smile
 
trnswrld
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:40 pm

If AA absorbed close to 30 TWA 757 aircraft and are only operating 16 of them now where is the other half now? Sucks to see them go I liked flying on them as well. As mentioned the extra doors and lavs in the middle made it feel like a larger aircraft and the IFE was much more modern. I believe TW's 757's were newer than most of AA's as well.
 
SafetyDude
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:30 pm

(before it is two late)
Oh dear...people it is "too". There are two apples; I have to go to the apple; I have too many apples.

Also, I think it is more cost efficient to have a smaller fleet (in terms of type) rather than having a bunch of planes that have a little “niche.” Keep in mind, the more planes that an airline has means more training etc.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:26 am

KKMolohai..no dis respect...However as a frequent flyer/and freight customer of AA..shippingto SJU..I really wonder how AA would replace the container capacity that the A-300's give to the caribbean?

JUSt maybe there is a 7e7 order lurking out there or maybe some options left on 777's that will be converted to an aircraft configured for the Caribbean.

With the need for freight revenue in such a lucerative market, I just don't see it all going to 767s or narrowbodies. Just my thoughts.
 
KKMolokai
Topic Author
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:32 am

Tan Flyr,

No disrespect taken. I'm just reporting what was presented to me on a power point presentation by senior management in DFW. AA is well aware of the cargo capacity the A300's provide, and I'm sure they have a plan in place (or in mind) in how to retain that cargo capacity with the A300's replacement. There's no question, the A300's are on their way out, the question here is, what their replacement a/c will be.
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
ORDagent
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:55 am

Ok,

Another concern I have is that in the Caribbean market the runways are shorter. I don't think the 777 has the same performance and needs a longer runway. This may be a problem with putting them in that part of the world. They would need about 25 777's to replace the entire fleet. I don't see the 7e7 as an option since 1) expense in acquisition 2) it is a long range a/c not medium to short as the A300.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:57 am

If AA absorbed close to 30 TWA 757 aircraft and are only operating 16 of them now where is the other half now?

One is flying for Transmeridien. Shanghai Airlines picked up at least 2.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:15 am

i see another 777 order, possibly an upgraded 777-200ER or a 777-300ER

I rather doubt either.

They still have nine 772ERs on order. Doubt any "upgrade" on that model will be all that enticing, as AA has already upturned its nose at the Trent895, as well as Boeing upturning its nose on the proposed 777-250/500ER concepts.

As for the 773ER: not only would AA have to quell its beef with the GE90 (feasible), but they dont really have a market to justify the enormous expense/capacity of their aircraft anyways.


__________________
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TWAL1011
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:47 pm

The TWA 757's were being returned to the lessor since day 1 of the integration. We knew in 2001 that the 757's would be returned as the leases expired and would be completely gone by 2007.

Don't forget AA will still take delivery of enough 737's beg. in 2005 to replace this capacity.
 
gigneil
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:54 pm

There is no exclusive agreement. The WTO threw it out.

B757-300(before it is two late)

It is now too late. No new orders.

N
 
sv11
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:41 pm

The A300 retirement timing sounds perfect for a 7E7 order. The 7E7 would have nice cargo capacity for the latin american routes. It would be good if AA becomes a launch customer.

sv11
 
Thrust
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:39 pm

On the contrary, Yyz717s. AA is operating no 717s whatsoever. All the TWA 717s are flying for other airlines now. I doubt AA will add the 717 to its fleet in the future considering they already disposed of the ones TWA had to offer. AA should have phased out the Fokkers upon immediate acquisition of the 717s. The 717s have Rolls Royce engines, the preferred type in general for the American fleet, and were much newer than the Fokker 100s. I would be shocked if they acquired the 717s, though, since they disposed of the ones they had.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
milesrich
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:19 pm

AA was not displeased with the operating characteristics of the 717 but the TWA lease rates were so high, that AA decided to dump them when they had the chance. With TW's last prepackaged Chapter 11, AA had the option of rejecting any lease or executory contract it desired to, and it took advantage of that provision of the Bankruptcy Code. AA may not bring back the 717, but I think they will find that its much cheaper to operate that aircraft than a 70 seat RJ, on a PPM basis, especially since AA has reduced their labor cost so much.
 
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yyz717
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RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:41 pm

On the contrary, Yyz717s. AA is operating no 717s whatsoever.

Yes I know. I was talking about the ex-TWA 757's.

As for the 773ER, it will be a natural choice for AA later this decade when growth on key intl routes outstrips the 772 capacity. With a fleet of 47 772's, it's reasonable that some 772 routes will require capacity growth in the next 7 years.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
anxebla
Posts: 1696
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:31 am

RE: AA Fleet Update

Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:45 pm

KKMOLOKAI:
Do you think A-300 is a good plane for AA's Caribbean routes??? What aircraft do you prefer for his replacements? Maybe an A-330?
AIRBUS 320 The world's most advanced single-aisle aircraft