dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:26 pm

Airport puts lid on rivals of Northwest

New terminal won't allow added service
February 7, 2004






BY RAJIV VYAS
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER




The head of the Wayne County Airport Authority says he wants to renegotiate a little-known 2001 agreement with Northwest Airlines that keeps competing airlines from adding gates and international service at the new terminal planned for Metro Airport.

Authority Chairman James Nicholson wants the $428-million North Terminal to attract new airlines and encourage existing carriers to add service, hoping the competition would bring down fares charged by Northwest, which carries three of every four passengers at the airport.

The North Terminal, opening in 2007 or 2008, would be a rebuilding of the Davey Terminal, where Northwest used to fly from. The Smith Terminal, the airport's oldest and the one now used by Northwest competitors, would be demolished.

But the project has considerable restrictions because of the agreement signed by Wayne County and Northwest on Sept. 27, 2001.

"Times change," Nicholson said Monday. "There are real constraints on what we can do."

Northwest agreed to support the North Terminal and a second phase to the new McNamara Terminal in exchange for several conditions that could influence the competitive mix of airlines at Metro for decades to come.

Two of the most crucial terms in the 2001 agreement:


The new terminal is restricted to a maximum of 29 gates. The gates are only for narrow-body jets such as Airbus A320s and Boeing DC-9s.
Gates for wide-body jets such as Airbus A330s or Boeing 747s, needed for longer-distance flights, could be built, but each would then take the place of up to two of the allotted 29 gates.

Airlines competing with Northwest currently operate 30 gates at the Smith Terminal.


The North Terminal cannot contain a customs and immigration facility, which means a competing airline would not be able to offer incoming international service there. Consumer advocates and airline experts say the restrictions will limit customer choice, prevent new airlines from entering the Detroit market, and give Northwest an unusual amount of power over its competitors.
Airport officials said the 2001 agreement doesn't contain an expiration date. Northwest's lease at Metro runs through 2032.

McNamara signed the deal
Nicholson said he wants his airport authority to persuade Northwest to give the airport more flexibility and have an immigration and customs department at the new terminal. He said the 2001 agreement was signed when the authority did not exist.

The agreement was signed by then-Wayne County Executive Ed McNamara and James Greenwald, Northwest's vice president of facilities and airport affairs.

"If I was to do this type of agreement I would not have put in those restrictions," said Michael Glusac, a board member and secretary of the airport authority.

Andrea Fischer Newman, senior vice-president of government affairs for Northwest, said the agreement followed one negotiated in the mid-1990s between all the airlines and the county. She said if airlines or the airport wanted to expand, "Northwest is always open to discussions."

The 2001 agreement and its restrictions received little public notice.

Such restrictions are rare, experts said.

"I have never heard anything like this," said Kevin Mitchell, chairman of Business Travel Coalition, a lobbying group for corporate buyers of airline services. "It sounds very heavy-handed."

Most airports don't have such restrictions because it discourages competition, said Morten Beyer, chairman of Morten Beyer & Agnew, an airline industry consultant.

"I have never seen one that is so blatant as that one," said George Doughty, executive director of Lehigh Valley International Airport. Doughty was the director of aviation for Denver between 1984 and 1992 when he oversaw construction of Denver International Airport.

Northwest also has veto power over any capital improvement programs at Metro.

Spirit, American Airlines, America West Airlines, Southwest Airlines, United Airlines and US Airways would use the North Terminal. Northwest, its affiliates such as Continental and KLM, and Lufthansa use the McNamara Terminal.

Airport leaders want the new terminal to be as good if not better than McNamara, which cost $1.2 billion.

But Nicholson said the restrictions could prevent that.

Competitors have avoided confrontation on the issue.

"While there are limitations that will be placed upon the new terminal . . . we are confident that we will develop a state-of-the-art facility that is both customer friendly and operationally sound," said Jacques Beaumier, director of properties and facilities for Spirit Airlines Inc. Beaumier is also chairman of the North Terminal airline committee, which is made up of the airlines using the Smith terminal.

The 29-gate restriction prevents competing airlines from expanding service substantially -- unless Northwest approves.

"I don't know if 29 is too little or too much or just right," authority member Glusac said. But the airport has to look four to five decades ahead and needs more flexibility, he said.

Airport CEO Lester Robinson said the 29-gate restriction arose from a survey for requirements in 2001. "We are not planning for four or five decades from now in the facility we are putting in," but the next 10 years, he said.

The airport, meanwhile, is evaluating the economic viability of the Berry Terminal, which is used for a few international flights. If the Berry Terminal is not viable, the airport may want to demolish it and shift international and charter operations to the new complex, Robinson said. For that it would need Northwest permission.

Robinson also said the airport may need more gates. He said Northwest has been cooperative in the past and he doesn't see a problem in getting the airline's approval.




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panaman
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 1999 2:24 pm

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:46 pm

I think this would fall under the term

Dtw got F*uck!!!!!!!!!!!!


HA Ha nice one NWA

Also sounds like something Mayor Dailey would do to ORD. Since he loves the buddy buddy system. hint hint UAL and AA
Sorry I moved from SXM, looking for a new house on Anguilla now!
 
FlyingColours
Posts: 2202
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:13 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sat Feb 07, 2004 10:49 pm

I admit I skimmed the last few Paras there.

It sounds like the airport is now being (or going to be) screwed over by NW unless they are willing to negotiate.

BOEING DC-9 - I am no DC9 fan but argh thats an outrage!!!

Well if the new terminal can take narrow-bodies is there anywhere where a widebody could go?

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
Guest

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sat Feb 07, 2004 11:54 pm

Phil,

(Correct me if I'm wrong, but) I believe the Berry Terminal has four widebody gates.

 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
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RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:03 am

I think the thing to remember here is this quote!

"McNamara signed the deal"

So you can not blame NW for asking for and getting this contract. You need to blame McNamara for being so willing to give away the farm, so to say and not looking out for the best interest of the paying and traveling public. Good deal for NW, bad for the paying passengers who want choices.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
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RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:30 am

Hey Mac got a good deal out of it, he got his name on the terminal, thats all he cared about.
 
flyingbronco05
Posts: 3484
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RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:00 am

Isn't it ILLEGAL to block/prohibit competition?

This just gives me yet ANOTHER reason to never fly NW Smile


fb05

[Edited 2004-02-07 18:01:33]
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
XJDTW
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:37 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:14 am

Somebody at NWA deserves a nice bonus check! Way to go NW!
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:16 am

NW did what any business, be it airline or otherwise to go after and get the best deal possible for themselves. The fact that McNamara gave it to them and did not counter offer and go after something that would have been more of a balance, shows he is the guilty party in all of this.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:33 am

One would assume that they signed the deal for fear that NW would pull up stakes and focus more expansion at MSP and MEM. That would have resulted in a large loss of jobs and probably very little increase in competition.

Let's face it, DTW is not likely to gain any more international traffic in any case -- 4 widebody gates at Berry should handle all the other carriers -- and while people talk and talk...not much has happened. After all, DTW already IS a Southwest city and has been for a decade. Toss in Spirit and you've already got significant low cost competition at DTW.

In short, while the theory of a lot of carriers hubbing at DTW is nice...it ain't likely. And to have driven significant NW action from DTW in hopes that someone else would come would have been the subject of a different thread, titled:

"How could the DTW officials been so stupid as to have driven NW out?"

 Smile

Steve
 
UAL727222
Posts: 56
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RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:45 am

Northwest has greater dominance at its hubs than do other carriers at theirs. UA has firm market control at Denver and San Francisco, though Frontier has chipped at some of the DEN routes. Detroit is an important city for NWA, and NWA is important for Detroit. Competition may enter, but I expect NWA to be jealous of their dominance and unwilling to concede too much.
 
Guest

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:09 am

I think the thing to remember here is this quote!

No, I think the thing to remember is the author of the article (an a.net member who is often wrong in his articles).

- - -

Let's make something clear: the WorldGateway exists today only because of NW's efforts, including most of the initial financing. Why the hell shouldn't they be entitled to control its fate status quo? The Barry Terminal, although a dump, is still an adequet terminal for OAL's needs. The WorldGateway was built for their needs. Nothing would stop LH, BA, AF (should they choose to serve DTW, which they will probably eventually do), etc. getting together and building a new international terminal, a la NW style.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:22 am

IP I agree with you, I was just trying to point out that they did nothing wrong in reaching the deal that they did in fact receive. Any and all business's would go for the best and why not, after all last I looked NW was in business to make money, and not a non-profit company.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
B4REAL
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RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:28 am

Definitely some sketchy administration going on @ DTW. I'm glad I changed my preferred carrier from NW, this was tough as I live in Michigan.

I always was curious of the hocus-pocus going on with the DTW airport administration.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
Guest

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:33 am

I always was curious of the hocus-pocus going on with the DTW airport administration.

A couple points though:

- The terminal was built mostly with NW's money (of course it'll be paid back, but in the meantime why shouldn't they enjoy what they paid for?)

- Other airlines are free to enter the market / expand their service at the Barry Terminal. The WorldGateway is NW's terminal. If NW wanted ORD-NRT, and wanted the service to depart from T1 at ORD, do you think UA would allow it?
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:00 am

I don't see what should block airlines from flying international routes that Northwest doesn't currently serve like DTW- MXP, DTW-BRU, DTW-WAW etc.
 
aussiestu
Posts: 752
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:32 pm

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:19 am


IndustrialPate - does BA not already serve DTW? Does AF or LH? If BA does then I can hardly see them joining AF or LH to build a new terminal? All 3 carriers are in different alliances and so joining forces to take on NW is not an option.
 
JAFA
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RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:23 am

This is essentially a non-story! Blah, Blah, blah, then in the end the airport director says: Northwest has been cooperative in the past and doesn't see a problem in getting thier approval.
The airport trusted Northwest enough to allow them to design & manage construction of the WorldGateway. Saving the county a ton of money.
Actually NW has a bout 50% market share in DTW O&D traffic. If you include the people that are just changing planes in DTW then it would seem that NW dominates DTW.
 
hammer
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RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:26 am

Bronco, you seriously won't fly NWA because of this DTW World Gateway thing? It was an agreement when NWA built the new terminal that there would not be alot of growth from other airlines, this was agreed upon from not only NWA but Wayne County executives. That's just the way it is, it is a great thing for NWA.
 
Guest

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:55 am

Aussiestu,
BA and LH already serve DTW; I was referring to AF. My point is that DTW's Barry Terminal is sufficient for international growth & expansion -- should exisiting or potential airlines want to jazz it up, then they're more-than-welcome to do so...
 
frontiers4ever
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:35 pm

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 6:12 am

I believe that if NWA was the one to build it and largely finance it, why shouldn't they be aloud to do as they please with it. I got an idea, I will invest in a hot stock, and because it is awesome others want in on it. And I say no because I put up the cash, i am the bad guy.

-Frontiers4ever
Until you prove, your right, your wrong
 
m404
Posts: 1875
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:43 pm

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 6:15 am

Lets see now. DTW was known for years as the worst passenger friendly hub in the nation. It literally and figuratively stank. So, the dominant hub carrier there who was not making a whole lot of money at the time and still isn't, went out and with the counties permission and in fact blessing because of the rates they themselves thought fine when compared with what bonds could have gotten, built a world recognized airport the city for the first time in my memory could actually brag about.

Now to acheive this the carrier asked and received promises from the county to protect their own investment for a period of time and recoup their efforts. What is wrong with that? Does not city and county goverment grant tax breaks every single day to companies to build or stay in their locales? Can these same tax breaks be viewed by other companies whom for geographic reasons did not get the same financial footing in that location as anti-competitive? Perhaps. But that is business as usual.

They are called fortress hubs for a reason and if a company has its hands tied while trying to protect precious assets then no long term investments can or should be made. And what do you tell investers then? We cannot all go back to point "A" and start over. There is no level playing field. If Detroit wanted a new airport that would have had free entry by everyone at any time then they will have to build and pay for it.

As the new LCCs age and expand through purchases and building their own debt loads and those of the entities that sponsor them will grow and need servicing. The employees will need profits put into retirement plans and an aging work force will need better medical coverage.....And they will be called Legacy carriers because now they have one.

A more interesting story would have been to follow the money trail (as always) as to how the financing actually took place and by whom and from whom. Check the facilitators. That would be the real lesson in world financing not some carping because of a perceived lack of choice in ticketing.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:10 am

The future for FNT just looks brighter and brighter.  Smile

Wayne County's deal with Northwest probably violates the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution. Only Congress is allowed to pass stinking anticonsumer corruption of this particular type, e.g. the Wright Amendment. At the very least, NW should have stuffed a bunch of cash in Senator Levin and Senator Stabenow's pockets and done it right. Of course, they probably figured that since the oaf of a county executive was willing to sign away control of a public facility, they didn't need to bother.

But we probably won't find out unless someone sues, and even Spirit probably has better things to spend their money on. Their existing Smith terminal gates can still provide for substantial expansion, and Southwest has been content to keep their head down, scummy airport deals with a high-fare Cartel fortress carrier or no. Other network carriers probably won't have much need to expand in the next few years. AirTran is thriving at Flint. JetBlue and/ or Frontier would probably only need one gate, and Wayne County could probably wangle one for them if needed.

The Berry Terminal, architectural clunker that it is, can probably handle most non-NW related international needs, esp. if BA and LH are at the WorldGateway.

The State of Michigan could void the deal if it wanted to, since counties are creatures of the state there like everywhere else. But NW probably has stuffed their pockets full of cash too.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Guest

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:21 am

DCA-ROCguy,

One more time: NW built and financed the WorldGateway. They were rewarded with long-term leases on all the gates… why shouldn’t they decide who gets to use them, and to where? There’s plenty of room for growth, expansion and new carriers within the L.C. Smith and Barry Terminals. And again, if NW wanted to operate ORD-NRT from T1 at ORD, do you think UA would allow it? So again, what’s the problem?

If NW were controlling grown/expansion/new carriers at the L.C. Smith and Barry Terminals, then I think there’d be an argument. But they don’t!
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:31 am

I wasn't talking about the WorldGateway, a facility financed by one airline. I was talking about the rest of the airport. Read the article: "Northwest also has veto power over any capital improvement programs at Metro." That means that Bozo the McNamara *effectively signed away development power at Metro to Northwest.* Which will probably get struck down in court on interstate-commerce grounds once it's challenged.

But, IMO, no one probably feels it's worth the cost of a court fight with Northwest at this point. If Detroit experts have reason to think otherwise, by all means let us know; this is just my opinion as an observer.

There is *not* "plenty of room" for expansion of other carriers in the LC Smith terminal, in terms of new gate space. My non-expert observation is that existing gates can serve well for incumbent carriers for now. But should Spirit copmletely carry through the extensive expansion plans they announced last summer, they'll probably need additional gates. And Wayne County should not have to try to take a gate from anyone else to do so.

Detroit Metro Airport is a *public facility* and it should be operated in the public interest. Giving a network carrier known for its especially anti-competitive practices, control of an entire public facility, stinks to high heaven. And it's probably illegal.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:38 am

Detroit Metro Airport is a *public facility* and it should be operated in the public interest. Giving a network carrier known for its especially anti-competitive practices, control of an entire public facility, stinks to high heaven. And it's probably illegal.

I doubt it's illegal. And obviously they felt at the time it was in the public interest to get NW to front a lot of money and commit to a massive build at DTW. Again, the "bird in the hand" theory.

So now, we've got yet another city trying to hose a business by claiming it shouldn't have to stick to any deals. THAT is what's wrong.

Steve
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:42 am

Furthermore: any threats by Northwest to leave Detroit or move lots of hub traffic to MEM or MSP are *empty.* Detroit and its surrounding communities are the second largest metro-area in the Midwest, with a population of several million. That means business to anchor all those lucrative int'l flights, in a great location to move pax between Northeast, Midwest, South, transatlantic, and transpacific.

Chicago is taken. St. Louis doesn't have the O & D. Neither does MEM. MSP is already well-developed for the catchment region it serves. MSP is poorly positioned to move traffic to or from most of the Midwest population to the Northeast; there's a reason NW only operates a handful of flights from most NE markets to MSP, and lots to DTW.

When NW asked McNamara for veto power over development at DTW, McNamara should have given them a Bronx cheer. NW has a moneymaking machine in DTW, and nowhere else to go. They've been protected from LCC reality on too many routes for too long, and the people of SE Michigan have been getting screwed for too long. NW would still do very well at DTW with more LCC competition, just less well. They can deal with it.

Jim

Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Guest

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:54 am

…signed away development power at Metro to Northwest.* Which will probably get struck down in court on interstate-commerce grounds once it's challenged.

The true Bozo in this situation is the idiot who wrote this article. NW DOES NOT EXERCISE ANY CONTROL OVER DTW BEYOND THE TERMINAL IN WHICH THEY OCCUPY. Again, in providing financing for construction of the new terminal, they were rewarded long-term lease contracts on all gates & the ability to do with they pleased with them. Without NW, the WorldGateway would’ve never been a reality. Until NW’s repaid every penny they spent on construction of the terminal, IT IS THEIR’S.

There is *not* "plenty of room" for expansion of other carriers…

DCA-ROCguy, not to insult you but do you have any idea what you're talking about?!?

- The Barry Terminal houses British Airways, Royal Jordanian and various charter airlines. The charter aircraft utilize the gates momentarily, and then park in remote parking areas. They usually load/unload in the early morning hours, and there’s plenty of room for expansion. In the evening, the terminal is practically dead other than the couple hours that BA loads/unloads. Royal Jordanian arrives in the wee hours of the morning. Thus, if any additional charter or intercontinental airlines wish to inaugurate service to DTW, there’s more than ample room to do so.

- At the L.C. Smith Terminal:
* Concourse A: UA/AC have three gates with no need for more, US has three gates and only uses one these days, DL has one (ComAir) and will soon relinquish it when it moves to the WorldGateway and WN gave-up three of the six gates in the extension. So in just a few months there will be four available gates, with incumbent carriers having no need for more.
* Concourse B: There’s 12 gates within Concourse B, and at least one or two are currently unoccupied. HP has three gates but only five departures (they have more departures from other airports operating from a single gate) and AA has four or five gates but only uses three regularly now that STL has been dropped. Once DL moves, two additional gates will open up.
* Concourse C: 13 gates remain now that the extensions have been demolished. NK is the only airline within this concourse, and they only use six. That leaves seven gates for future NK expansion – or for another interested airline.
 
warszawa
Posts: 549
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:37 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:43 am

Maybe we'll see FNT become really popular, almost like the " Chicago Midway " of Michigan, so to speak.

Afterall... its not that far from DTW, like what, 50 miles north? Iv'e been to FNT and its 10x better than DTW ( I live about 40 mins east of FNT too, very convienent )

FNT could probably handle, at largest, a 767 ( The largest runway i believe is 7800 ft ), if not a 767 then for sure a 757.
Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:50 am

NWA used most of their own money to build the new terminal. MI people are always bitching bitching bitching about NWA..that they ONLY can fly NWA. So Is NWA the ONLY airline flying there NOT AT ALL

UAL
AAL
CAL
DAL
SWA
USAirways
Sprit
LH
BA
SunCountry

Yep by that list it looks like NWA is the ONLY airline flying there!

Lets face it folks, we are in a new time, where HUBS will NOT be made any more. UAL OWNS DEN (F9 is chipping away slowly at that). AA Owns DFW, DL owns ATL, US owns PHL.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
flyabr
Posts: 753
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RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:59 am

geesh....who gives a squat about detroit ??  Big grin

i'd rather see something done at MSP so that southwest and others would enter that market...!

btw, didn't NW threaten to pull out of MEM not too long ago if Southwest was allowed in ... ?

 
warszawa
Posts: 549
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:37 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 10:02 am

" MI people are always bitching bitching bitching about NWA..that they ONLY can fly NWA. "

Wow, im surprised because, i live in michigan, and 2 of my family members always go on a trip about every 4-5 months ( June they went DTW-FLL and back on Spirit, October they went to Tahiti, connected in LAX, not with NWA though, but with Delta, they flew Delta out of DTW ).

They just came back from a trip from Las Vegas 3 weeks ago. Flew Continental this time.

No...they dont flip flop all over on purpose, they just find the lowest fares to be with anyone *BUT* Northwest.

Me, on the other hand, having lived in michigan for about 5-6 years, i have YET to fly NWA. None of my family members really do either.

Its just whenever me/my family are booking something, NWA isnt reasonable on anything.

So nobody here, at least in my family ( And a lot of the people i know ) when travelling, bitch about " We have to fly NWA! ". Never even heard anything like that since i've lived here.

Also, you left out Air Canada Jazz in that list  Big grin Im flying them DTW-YYZ and YYZ-DTW this summer.
Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 11:00 am

The fact the WN gave up gates should be a significant reality check. When was the last time Herb's crew set money on fire?

Steve
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:23 pm

I expect the FAA and DOT will make mince meat of this agreement and criminal investigations could occur...

Further, When Spirit is ready to expand soon NW will be stuck with the thorn in their sides and a criminal investigation into MacNamera his cronies and NW and violation of federal anti trust regulations.
 
Guest

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:03 pm

Again, Vyas is an idiot, the Free Press sucks when it comes to aviation-related stories (maybe because Vyas writes for them...) and this story was not front page material.

Although I’ve already said enough on this issue, I will summarize with this: the agreement in question establishes NW’s costs on financing future “capital improvement” programs at DTW (including the proposed North Terminal). In the past decade, more than $2 billion has been spent on “capital improvement” projects at DTW, and NW has contributed a vast amount of it. In addition, more than $700 million (possibly more) has been proposed on future projects to be completed within five years. And again, NW will be expected to contribute their share. So this agreement outlines what NW’s share will be. Should the airport choose to spend more, and expect NW to contribute more, they will need to consult with the airline.

But the theory that NW has total control over DTW is absurd. In fact, the airport recently raised several fees that infuriated NW… the airline has absolutely no control over who serves DTW, to where and how often. It was already agreed that all International service would be conduced within the McNamara Terminal, in order for the airport to save money by having only one security checkpoint. However, airlines such as BA have demanded two lounges and NW’s not willing to comply (they claim there isn’t the space). Since BA can’t get what they want, they won’t move.


[Edited 2004-02-08 05:09:48]
 
Iflewrepublic
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 11:31 pm

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 3:50 pm

IndustrialPate...

Thank you for taking the time to clear up the information on this issue. I just wish people would read what is being printed here by the people who know what's going on.

NWAFA...

As for your comment, people have a love-hate relationship with Northwest. They simply love to hate us. For the longest time, we were the unofficial whipping boy for the industry. Things are slowly turning around and I, personally, feel we are making a valiant effort to shed out Northworst image. Just because something happened on a Northwest flight, or Northwest was in the background somehow, people tend to overreact than if it were say United or American.

Everyone else...

For those of you who continue to fly us and who continue you have safe and pleasant flights, I can't begin to thank you enough. For those of you who willingly come back to us, again, thank you. We must be doing something right to keep your business.

Iflewrepublic.
Aviation is proof that, given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Sun Feb 08, 2004 6:27 pm

Until NW’s repaid every penny they spent on construction of the terminal, IT IS THEIR’S.

For the third time, I wasn't talking about the WorldGateway....

- The Barry Terminal houses British Airways, Royal Jordanian and various charter airlines. The charter aircraft utilize the gates momentarily, and then park in remote parking areas.

For the second time, I noted that the Berry Terminal should be sufficient to handle the int'l demand not used by the WG for years to come...

At the L.C. Smith Terminal:

Thanks for the updated information. As I noted, I'm only an observer and didn't realize some changes had occurred. As long as Wayne County is free to do non-NW related things, with no NW financial involvement, without NW's approval, there's not likely any Constitutional problem.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Guest

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:23 am

As long as Wayne County is free to do non-NW related things, with no NW financial involvement, without NW's approval, there's not likely any Constitutional problem.

There is no Consitutional problem and the airport would be just as worse off with NW running it as they are with Wayne County running it... put a real agency in charge & then we'll talk.

In the meantime, I bet the L.C. Smith / Barrry Terminals will be around for at least ten more years..
 
NWAFA
Posts: 1843
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:36 am

Dear Iflewrepublic:

I think you did hit it on the head..NW has been the one to pick on. Trust me I have a Sister who flies for UAL and a brother that flies for American. UAL and AA are not the "friendliest" employees. Not known for getting anywhere on time..until recently for UAL.

WN, well they are just trailer trash in the sky. People that fly and work for them are the ones that lack professionalism...Tact....Manners. In so many of the cities they fly in, their passengers dont get the concepet of "personal space". they will form that stupid cattle-call line in front of anything or any one....
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1236
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:48 am

WN, well they are just trailer trash in the sky. People that fly and work for them are the ones that lack professionalism...Tact....Manners. In so many of the cities they fly in, their passengers dont get the concepet of "personal space". they will form that stupid cattle-call line in front of anything or any one....

While this is your opinion and you are entitled to it, I would like to remind you of the many BMW's, Jaguars, and Mercedes that one may see at a suburban Wal-Mart. If Wal-Mart is a discount place, then surely we should see "trailer trash" individuals there.

You probably won't be able to figure out the analogy I am trying to attempt here, but I hope you can understand.
 
northwestair
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2001 11:25 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:51 am

I was in DTW last week attending a conference at the Westin (very nice hotel) I noticed that LH departs out of the new NW World Gateway Terminal. I find that strang since LH is in the Star Alliance and not the SkyTeam. Even though I work NW I thought it was cool to see the LHA340.
I don't care who you fly just as long as you fly
 
Guest

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Mon Feb 09, 2004 6:09 am

NW agreed to consolidate the FIS into the WorldGateway, and set-up ticketing positions / signage for BA & LH. However, both carriers demanded lounges & NW insisted there wasn’t enough space & offered to contract the WorldClubs. In the end, they relented and provided the space for lounges… LH built theirs & relocatedto the WorldGateway but BA claimed the space was inadequate for their needs. I’m certain there’s other issues involved, too… and the Barry Terminal handles a good deal of International charters that won’t move to the WG.
 
Guest

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Mon Feb 09, 2004 6:32 am

While this is your opinion and you are entitled to it, I would like to remind you of the many BMW's, Jaguars, and Mercedes that one may see at a suburban Wal-Mart. If Wal-Mart is a discount place, then surely we should see "trailer trash" individuals there.

Yeah, did at my Wal-Mart... until the Target Greatland opened next door, and suddenly the Wal-Mart parking lot looked like a used car lot in an economically depressed district.
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:37 am

IndustrialPate and NWAFA..thanks and kudos to you.. I live in Michigan, am silver E 13 of the last 14 years with nw, used the new(and old) terminal hundreds and hundreds of times whether to originate or change planes. Your posts have the most facts so I thank you. Remember NW had n-s flights from ORD to Tokyo for years, competing with JAL. After a few years of UA joining in on the route, they moved to route to DTW, I believed that was around 93.
NW would NEVER move out of DTW now. They have a ton of $$$ soaked into it and if they did, AA would move out of ORD and into DTW overnight. Remember in 2000 when the new building was under construction, and there was some loose merger talks between NW and AA? AA admitted that they were interested in DTW because of the new terminal and hub. They were tired of banging heads with UA in Chicago ORD and ATA and Southwest at MDW.

I couldnt care less about the politics and NW and Wayne County(not the city of Detroit, folks. The airport is miles from Detroit). I like the terminal and the new attitude by the people who work there. I just want to see the unions and management come together and showcase their product to the world. NW is in the position to do this. Most of the other big carriers have $$$$$ problems and are really sweating. NW is not there yet and hopefully will not be. I need you guys............thanks
mike
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
md80spirit
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 10:31 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Mon Feb 09, 2004 12:30 pm

Spirit has said that they will need at least 14 gates for its growth plans for the next 5 years.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6106
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:32 pm

Spirit is one of the reasons the new Davey terminal has been held up. They can't make up their mind with what they want. When they finally decide on the linear design, Spirit changed their minds and said, no it doesn't fit their operation, and they wanted concourse, or this stupid W design. Spirit with 14 gates in DTW? I dunno about that one, they've got a ways to go. They have 6 now, and they are almost never more than 3 aircraft there at a time, mostly in the late evening. I agree, I doubt we'll see anything new for 10 years until everyone sorts everything out, and the fact the Smith terminal is becoming rather deserted. Heck, most the gates exist just to RON aircraft and never actually get used by passengers.

Well, besides the fact that Wayne County put things on the back burner during the past few years, and now both CO & DL have/will be in the Worldgateway, its become a question of exactly WHO will be in the new place. Then there is doubt whether US will be around to serve it.
 
Howdy
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:55 pm

RE: NW Blocks Other Airlines At DTW

Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:54 am

Interesting posts and nice read. Thanks.

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