717fan
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Any News From The 717?

Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:44 pm

I know I have asked this several times and it doesn't looks very good for the 717at all, but I am still hoping and searching for good news for the 717....
There are still some possible orders/customers left....
Thanks
 
ANA
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:55 pm

Think that to date there are 161 orders - last year saw only 8 orders.

Anders
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:19 am

ANA is correct on 161 orders to dates. Per Boeing's website, 36 have yet to be filled. While I'm a big supporter of the 717 program, Boeing will need more orders this year otherwise the 717 will become a lame duck. I believe LGB is building 2 a month now. AirTran, Midwest & Pembroke have more coming. Regards.
PS...wait until Greg see this post. I'm sure he'll have something negative to say.  Wink/being sarcastic
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
ANA
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:25 am

Sad, but I guess it's a victim of the merger and Conduit forgetting Boeing had a commercial aircraft division.

Anders
 
Greg
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:35 am

Nothing negative..just realistic.

Star wants nothing to do with it...it's only saviour could likely be NW or the likelihood that three or four other carriers would want 30 frames each--not hardly! Northwest is not keen that they purchasd the 753 only to have the line discountinued. Boeing needs about 2 planes a month to break even on operations...and another 90-120 total for the programme to break even. Of course, if they come out with another derivative model...that goes out the window.

With the EMB190 rolling out...and the FD928 comitted for a go-ahead....I don't think there is much of a chance...

Boeing is not run for enthusiasts. It's run for the shareholders.
 
gr8slvrflt
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:02 am

Oh, c'mon, Greg. Wouldn't it be neat-o to see the 717 in some really cool new colors?
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
Greg
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:13 am

I'm all for it if they can market it without spending another $100M! NW and AA 'should' have been strong contenders. There is always the possibility that it may still happen yet....as the economy improves. But most airlines don't need any replacement capacity until 2006 earliest. I'm not sure it can hold on till them.

I think BCAC has been offering some real sweetheart deals...but I think there will be at least one more dilligent attempt to get the programme jumpstarted before they discontinue. Other than being overweight for a regional..it's a reliable (if not a bit archaic) aircraft.

MacDac 'gave' 15 MD80's to AA to check 'em out...they ultimatley purchased hundreds of them. They did the same for TW. I'd think they could do the same for NW....just to see what happens....
 
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lindy field
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:32 am

You'll probably see the 717 in some cool new colors when some of the 161 ordered to date wind up in the fleets of second and third-rate airlines in the southern hemisphere. I'd guess relatively soon since it's likely that the current operators of the 717 won't want to be flying a lame-duck aircraft for too long.
 
Regis
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:54 am

You'll probably see the 717 in some cool new colors when some of the 161 ordered to date wind up in the fleets of second and third-rate airlines in the southern hemisphere. I'd guess relatively soon since it's likely that the current operators of the 717 won't want to be flying a lame-duck aircraft for too long.

Neither will we want to use your lame-duck aircraft. Keep your crap to yourself. We ain't garbage bins down here.
 
concordeboac
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:05 am

Regis:

He has a point, don't think that statement was aimed at ALL countries below the equator, more poor African nations and the like, Brazil is not a "third-rate" country just as Australia isn't, think more Etheopia etc.
 
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lindy field
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:30 am

Hey Regis,

You took my statement the wrong way, but I can understand how it might have come across as offensive. Just to make myself clear, there are plenty of first-rate airlines in the southern hemisphere that buy factory-new or relatively young second-hand aircraft and offer excellent service to their passengers. But you have to admit that there are also plenty of airlines of that fly odd-ball fleets of older, second-hand aircraft. They'll probably fly 717s some day because they'll be cheap to acquire and a good value.
 
col
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:36 am

I believe the production line is running at 1 per month. If they can make money at this level, then the 717 may be around a little longer - Air Tran and Midwest may want top ups. Biggest problem will be those aircraft being returned over the next 12 to 24 months - Qantas and Olympic (3 aircraft taken out now). Bangkok Air may require more, along with possibilities in Spain. 2006 may see the end or resurgence!?!?
 
Greg
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 5:50 am

Single airframe/month is a losing proposition. Their original estimate was 1.5. Now it is 2/month to cover production cost and make a minimal contribution to development cost. The program still needs 90 airframes to break even (although this seems to be an elusive number to actually calculate even by Boeing).
 
anstar
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:01 am

Qantas have 14 to return when their leases expire...

also, I'm sure there are a fair few dodgy northern hemisphere airlines around
 
Guest

RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:22 am

My very reliable inside source at Northwest Airlines told me that NW will announce orders for 500 717s next week to replace their DC-9s
 
planemaker
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 8:44 am

I wouldn't get too excited about future 717 lease deals to Midwest - they are not on the most solid footing. And Airtran wants to increase the number of longer routes they fly, hence the 73G. The 717's limited range cramps their plans and scheduling flexibility (for a relatively small fleet.)

Greg:

The FD928 has not been given the go ahead. Last weeks AWST had an article on FD and D'Long is not only looking for risk sharing partners for the 728 but is ALSO looking for a financial partner. Your enthusiam for D'Long/FD's chances of actually delivering an aircraft are admirable but, considering the considerable hurdles that they still have to overcome, they are not realistic.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Thrust
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:38 am

The 717 would have sold even better if TWA were still in business. They had over 100 orders for that aircraft. This forced the cancellation of many 717 orders. On the other hand, maybe some airlines got more experience with the ex-TWA 717s are sold. Does anyone know if N411TW is flying with another airline yet? In July 2003, it was seen departing Boeing field without titles but in the TWA livery.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
Greg
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:59 am

I read that article and the German Financial Times as well.
The 728 has been given the go ahead....subcontractors are being chosen now.
The 928 will be officially launched prior to the 728 going into service---so on that account--you are right.

D'long does not really need any financial partners for this venture if none are found (unlikely). They can delivery with internally generated funds if they choose. Also, expect some very decent loans from Germany to help fund the manufacturing.

I see you are with an aircraft manufacturer.....no doubt your pessimism is because you see FD as competition...

Optimistic?...You bet. It's a class aircraft. I'll try not to let my enthusiasm become too partial....

Brgds.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:20 am

The 717 would have sold even better if TWA were still in business. They had over 100 orders for that aircraft.

TWA ordered 50+50 (50 firm w/50 options). 30 of these were delivered.

Does anyone know if N411TW is flying with another airline yet?

If not flying, then committed at least. All 30 ex-TWA 717's have been placed: 22 to AirTran, 6 to QantasLink, 2 to Bangkok AW.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:27 am

I would think that Northwest would want the 717 too don't yeah think ???
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
planemaker
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:53 am

I agree with you that the 728 is potentially a good aircraft. My pessimism is due to seeing first hand what it takes to get an aircraft certified. It will take longer and cost more than they say. And, if it does get certified, I believe that it will be too late to garner any substantial orders.

Given the fact that Germany is trying to tighten spending, as they are over the allowable EU limit for their budget deficit, the govenment will be very hard pressed to make any substatial manufacturing contribution to what is a risky venture (where they previously already lost a very large sum of money). Furthermore, if the 728 does make it into production, who will finance sales... (it is the biggest obstacle to aircraft sales.) However, politics being politics, I do not rule out government participation. But even if they do "help out", I don't think the amounts will be enough.

With regards to D'Long's funds, there is no independent source that can verify their financial staus (at least none that I am aware of). They might have billions, or they might not... but it does raise my suspicion that they even mention that they are looking for a financial partner. If the deal is so good, and they have the cash, why look for a partner?

I am suspicious of any "positive" statement issued by a manufacturer - I have witnessed firsthand how they can lie through their teeth to look good, or mislead the competition. On the otherhand, I've seen aviation journalists make up "facts", and when confronted with the truth fail to print a retraction.

Even if they get the first prototype flying, I still feel that the odds are much less than 50% that D'Long/FD will be able to deliver an aircraft, let alone make any return on their investment. It is still a long road from first flight to certification, especially since they have had development and production interrupted for over 1.5 years.


Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:10 am

With aircraft like the CRJ line and the new Embraers eating away at the lower end of the market, and the Next Generation 737s and the A320 series eating away at the upper end of the market, I unfortunatly dont see much of a future for the 717. Its a nice airliner, but it seems most airlines can get more possibilitys, profit and/or commonality out of some of the other lines around.


Just my 2 cents
CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
Greg
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 1:03 pm

The 777 was third to market, and the most successful of the bunch...so that's not an overriding issue.

I'll go with Deloitte and Touche Tohmatsu as saying D'long has the money (since they are the independent financial experts in the region).

Will it work? Who knows. It's a good program that really only needed an infusion of cash.

I would be less optimistic if the actual aircraft or programme were technically flawed.

Thank you for your comments. Which manufacturer do you work for?

Brdgs.
 
applepie81
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:29 pm

Personally I think the 717 program is going to get some big orders rolling in soon.
Most people say the 717 won't achieve anything because it's all about having fleet commonality these days ie. CRJ-200/CRJ-900 or A318/A321. But just take a look at all those DC-9's and MD-87's out there, doesn't it make sense to replace these with a 717.
 
MD-90
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:53 pm

Having a good, efficient design is only one aspect of the purchase. Support is very important as well. The 717's real competitor is Embraer's 190 and 195. Embraer has proven that they can support their products, and Boeing of course knows how to do it extremely well. I'm not that optimistic about the 728 or 928.
 
col
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:10 am

Greg.

2003 Boeing delivered 12 717's. 11 to Midwest and 1 to Airtran. Production seems to be running at one per month unless they have them prepared and available months in advance.
 
planemaker
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:19 am

Greg:

I don't think that you can draw a parallel between Boeing being third to market and D'Long/FD being third to market - as you know, there are huge differences in so many ways.

"Will it work? Who knows. It's a good program that really only needed an infusion of cash."

It needs much more than an infusion of cash. They need new risk sharing partners and that is going to be a nightmare for a variety of reasons. For starters, I don't think that many companies are going to feel comfortable spending a lot of cash to set up component production and to get certified for a high risk programme - low return/high risk.

And then there are the engines. If GE doesn't come back on board... there goes the engineering for the engines/nacelles/pylons, etc. - unless D'Long is willing to pay up front for GE's involvement. The wings are another big problem... CASA is out of the picture, so to set up production elsewhere for such a major component is another obstacle. That is just two of many items that D'Long/FD have to take care of in a very tight period.

They will also need the engineering, planning and quality staff that went elsewhere. And if they do not get enough of the old staff back there will be a lot of delays as the new staff get up to speed. The same goes with the production staff. (And I can tell you that a lot of the old staff are now happily with EADS and Airbus.)

With the change in partners/suppliers, I suspect that they won't be able to use the first protoype for a lot of the certification requirements. There is a saying in aircraft manufacturing: The airplane flies when the paperwork weighs as much as the plane.

In the 728's case, it might be when the paperwork weighs twice as much as the plane.

By the time that the 728 would be available I really think that D'Long/FD will have missed the 70-80 pax market. They would stand a much better chance by going with the 928 instead.


Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Greg
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:09 pm

Actually, I'll respectfully disagree on some points. You don't need the same staff...just the same specs and drawings. Being very familiar with naval construction, I have been responsible for negoitiating French ships being completed by Croatian yards...and Spanish ships being completed in Danish yards. While I do understand the complexity is quite different...it still can be done..relatively on time and on budget. Everything is in the completness of the engineering drawings.

It is my understanding that D'long is well along on their negotiations with GE since it's the only contender (in all likelihood).

I'll agree that maybe the 928 should be pushed first...and that the paperwork...electronic or not...must be insurmountable.

Good point about certification. First six birds are in different stages of build..but can't be used for certification since they are built by different contractors--interesting.

I'm still saying it will be a go. Success will be determnied by getting it in the air...and getting customers.

Thank you for your intelligent replies.

Oh...I think it Korea that was getting the CASA work for wings and tailplane--not sure.
 
DAL12
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:42 pm

Planemaker:

That was an excellent post, and unfortunately, I share your skepticism on the 728/928's chances for survival.

This is a program that has totally lost its momentum and credibility. From day one it has been a big money loser which had extreme difficulty meeting deadlines and was totally mismanaged. D'Long setting dates that everyone knows it cannot meet is no way to regain the little credibility FD has ever had.

Furthermore, the original prototype is probably never going to fly -- not only was it a long, long way from first flight, it was assembled in haste for the roll-out and would have needed a great deal of re-work, in addition to having the issues with partners and suppliers you mentioned.

By far the biggest problem has been poor management -- one could argue that D'Long is a better-managed, better-funded company; but one with no background in aviation, much like CD&R previously (who could not save it before). And could a company with no real background in aviation properly support a product and overcome FD's horrific reputation in that regard? Seriously doubt it.

Add to that the fact that it will have to deal with German labor structure and are focusing their efforts in a crowded 70-80 seat market with what will probably be the heaviest product with the least credible brand and you have a very, very long shot.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:47 pm

There remain outstanding orders for 717's by 4 airlines: AirTran, Midwest, Bangkok Airways, Turkmenistan Airways.

I've read the same rumours about Qantas & Olympic returning their 717's (has this been confirmed??) but I don't see this as a negative per se....it creates new leasing opportunities by potential new 717 customers. Arguably, AirTran is NOT doing the 717 program any favours by absorbing all available used 717's.

The CEO of AeBal has been quoted as saying his airline is likely to be ordering further 717's in 2004....he'd better hurry up lest Boeing loses patience with the thinning 717 order book.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
planemaker
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:57 pm

Greg:

Yes it can be done, and has been done but not on time and never on budget. Ship building and aircraft building are quite different from a quality assurance point of view. The paper trail for everything is extremely detailed (at least it is suppose to be...) for everything - right down to the rivets that only have a set time that they can be used after being taken out of the certified freezer.

If you do not have the same staff, or at least the bulk of the original staff, you are going to have problems with engineering because there will be a LOT of engineering changes. It happens with all programs, especially when flight testing begins.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
DAL12
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:01 pm

Ship building and aircraft building are quite different from a quality assurance point of view.

That's a big understatement -- I work for a boat manufacturer and in terms of engineering and manufacturing rigor, it ranks well below the automotive industry, let alone aerospace.
 
Guest

RE: Any News From The 717?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:55 pm

My very reliable inside source at Northwest Airlines told me that NW will announce orders for 500 717s next week to replace their DC-9s

That's the scuttlebutt at MSP maintenance too per my source. 250 Firm/250 Options. DL and CO may also be involved in the deal.

[Edited 2004-02-11 07:01:54]
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 3:08 pm

The 717 program is still alive?? Im surprised!

If NW ACTUALLY orders the 717 then I'll be even more surprised! But I dont think it will happen, NW will probably replace the D9 with A318's anyway.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Greg
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:10 pm

I admit the complexity is different, but the QA is basically the same...particularly on chemical and VLCC's...their liability in the even of an accident far outwieghs claims on aviaiton.

DAL12....that's why most ships are built overseas...cost is harly the only factor....US quality is subpar on shipbuilding--particularly on innovation and engineering. We're actually lucky our Navy is afloat!

At any rate...I'll hold out my optimism on the 728/928...if for no other reason no one is going to let EMB have that market to themselves. The FD product is further along than any other competitor.

And yes, I heard at roll out the first aircraft was basically a bundle of wires inside!

Best Regards.
 
BeltwayBandit
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:45 pm

From what I hear, Embraer is going to own the 90-150 seat market for a while. The Boeing / Airbus shrink jobs don't work, Bombardier has no platform, Fokker is out of production, the 717 is an orphan that needs a new wing, and the 728 is such an unknown that orders are unlikely. Too bad. I feel (and I'll bet Boeing agrees) that the 717 should have been given another round of capital improvement 5 years ago so it could show efficiencies comparable to the E190.

One aspect of the 717 that does not seem to factor into any of these analyses is where these aircraft will be in 20 years. My sense is that the RJs will be tapped out by then, while the 717 will be in its prime. Unfortunately, most airlines live for the moment, and a benefit 20 years down the road (like NW is reaping right now on DC-9s) does not seem to factor in.
 
planemaker
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:25 pm

Greg:

"but the QA is basically the same"

Shipbuilding QA is not the same. In aircraft manufacturing every assembly/part/component, sub-assembly/sub-part/sub-component/fastener/etc. has a detailed paper trail and traceability from the raw material to who actually installed it on the aircraft. Plus, if it is a flight control component/system there are mulitple independent QC inspections, etc., etc., all the way to first flight and certification. You change anything, no matter how small or slight - (a hole size, rivet or fastener size, stand-off, tiewrap, etc. for example) and you first have to get engineering to specify the change and the installation procedure and have QA approve. You can imagine what is involved with a component like the wing which is going to a new supplier. It will be like starting the program all over again. With the current state of the 728 I can well image the certification nightmare.

"if for no other reason no one is going to let EMB have that market to themselves."

Not if it is a bad investment, which I believe it is. It is difficult enough to design, build and certify an aircraft under the best of times (just look at all the past failures). Now, with an industry that it is so unstable and uncertain and beyond a manufacturer's control, why a company like D'Long, with no previous aerospace experience would invest is truly beyond comprehension. Even FD originally stated when they first launched the 728 that there was room in the market for only 2 manufacturers (and that was when the Avro RJ-X was still alive and AI(R) was still making noises about their own RJ). Well, there are already two in the market and they are already quite a ways ahead of FD.

"The FD product is further along than any other competitor."

Depending upon customer configuration, in the 70-80 seat class there is CRJ-700/705 and the E170. In the 80 to 90 seat class the CRJ-900/E175. In the 90 to 100 the E190. And in the 100-120 the E195, the A318 and B717.

So, the only class that has no competition is in the 90-100 seats. And the only classes that BBD is not currently represented in is the 90-100 and 100-118. And the development of the BRJ-X-90 and BRJ-X-100 are further along than the 928. IF BBD chose to launch the BRJ-X it would get to market sooner than the 928 since FD is planning to bring it out AFTER the 728. That is a big mistake as you yourself believe.

By the way, I am not trying to diminsh your optimism. The 728/928 has obviously caught your imagination - and I would find it interesting to know what it is about the 728/928 that you like. As mentioned previously, I acknowledge that it is a good basic design. However, it does not provide any unique or substantial edge over the competition or even older aircraft (apart from projected reduced operating economics).

Beltwaybandit:

"One aspect of the 717 that does not seem to factor into any of these analyses is where these aircraft will be in 20 years."

Yes, but the "RJ's" are cheaper to buy and operate now. With the savings you would be able to by a new and improved, and even more economical "RJ" in 20 years time instead of being stuck with a 20 year old 717 with a wing design that is 40 years old...
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Greg
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:49 pm

Planemaker...thank you for another intelligent post. Again, we will be disagreeing.
Building parcel chemical tankers or an cruiseship is very much atune to building an aircraft, in fact, many of the engineers I have talked to would much rather work in the aerospace industry!---so, indeed, it is the complexity of the vessel that dictates the effort needed. And yes, there are welding, paint, steel, wiring, propulsion, stamping, etc inpectors at every turn--particularly on the larger vessels (clearly I'm not talking about a tug boat here). The complexity of the paperwork (mostly electronic) may surprise even you (being in the engineering field).

And I'll agree that D'long...with no prior experience...is relying heavily....maybe too heavily on prior FD expertise to get it going. That will be pivotal to their success.

Time will tell. But I think it will make a decent showing. Prior to their failure, the 728 was rated a better design than either the BBD or EMB competition. For no other reason than that I'd like to see it fly.

Best Regards.
 
tu154m
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 12:51 pm

The MD-95 is DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LET IT REST(or let's have another discussion on NW DC-9s!!!!!!)
S
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
 
planemaker
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:38 pm

Greg:

Perhaps the title of this thread should be changed to "Any news from the 728?"

The only shipbuilding I have been exposed to is at a yard in Germany that I have visited twice. It builds mainly bulk carriers so it obviously isn't of the size of cruise ship yard. However, while there was indeed complexity, from what I saw there wasn't quite the triple "A" type of obsession with QA that is in aerospace testing and certification.

I believe that the only place where the 728 design was rated better than the others in the competition was at LH, where FD (more, rather than less) adapted the design almost exclusively for LH (and it ended up costing FD precious time and money!) And that is why FD loss the Crossair order (they were originally expected to win it). Objectively, the 728 and BRJ-X were very similar in design and specifications. Given the fact that LH had been a very good BBD customer, and that BBD has a very successful track record of larger aircraft design and production (remember, at the time of the competition, other than the AVRO, the rest of the field were paper planes), I firmly believe that LH went with FD for one simple reason: politics... FD "was" German.

Interestingly, the BRJ-X design was slightly wider than the 728. Not that that in itself is key (the RJX was even wider), but it brings up the point that once inside a 728, BRJ-X, RJX, 717 or F-100, a passenger really wouldn't know the difference - their interiors are all so similar. And that precisely is why the 170/190 stands out - it is more comfortable and efficient for passengers. And that really is its only advantage (OK, and selling price.)

I do hope that the 728 at least flies. But I honestly believe that it doesn't have a chance of being a financial success for several reasons. Unfortunately, it is doomed to join the other financially unsuccessful German designs that now habitate various museums in Germany.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
B4REAL
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:57 pm

Startvalve and BoingGoingGone:

Are you serious, or is this some unwinked sarcasim that needs to be deciphered?

b4real
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
SXFAN
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:06 pm

Good news for all the 717 fans!!!
OA will start operating its fleet of three 717s by this Saturday.
Those aircrafts were under storage for more than two months after Olympic Airways was transformed to Olympic Airlines.
For those who can read Greek here is the source:
http://www.enet.gr/online/online_p1_text.jsp?c=114&id=46160140

Vasilis
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Any News From The 717?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:25 pm

B4real:

NWA's total fleet is only about 430 aircraft. And they have about 165 DC-9's. So, a 717 order by NWA for 250 firm and 250 option is a joke.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
B4REAL
Posts: 2557
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:31 pm

Planemaker

Okay, I should have caught that just based on the math.

I feel like I don't deserve the measely RRating=2 that I have now!
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
DAL12
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 6:56 am

RE: Any News From The 717?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:34 pm

Greg:

Building parcel chemical tankers or an cruiseship is very much atune to building an aircraft, in fact, many of the engineers I have talked to would much rather work in the aerospace industry!---so, indeed, it is the complexity of the vessel that dictates the effort needed. And yes, there are welding, paint, steel, wiring, propulsion, stamping, etc inpectors at every turn--particularly on the larger vessels (clearly I'm not talking about a tug boat here).


I can't address the hazmat issues, but you are wrong about the complexities of marine vs. aerospace industries. No doubt engineering is very important in both (especially to be competitive) but an airplaine is a fundamentally far more complex system than a boat.

Even if we assume that marine propulsion is of similar complexity of a typical turbofan (which it really isn't), the BIG difference is really in the complexity of aircraft controls. Anyone can design a mold, spray some gelcoat resin and fiberglass to create a hull and put an outboard engine and rudder in the back and have a seaworthy vessel. Very few individuals can design the controls of an aircraft and have proper aerodynamics to make it even fly, much less have it certified by the FAA or JAA!
 
Guest

RE: Any News From The 717?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:41 pm

No joke. And the 250 Firm/250 Option would involve DL and CO. Just stating the scuttlebutt.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Any News From The 717?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:16 pm

BoingGoingGone:

I just had to assume that you were joking because the scuttlebutt makes no sense at all, if you think about it. Every airline in the industry is trying to pare down their fleet to as few aircraft types as possible. Why would CO and DL especially, go out now and buy a new type for their fleet? Where is the logic?

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Guest

RE: Any News From The 717?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:57 pm

Shared domestic routes in the SkyTeam program on routes to big for RJs. It would replace DC-9's, MD-80's and MD-90's. If they do it it's to streamline service levels and efficiencies (Shared crews/maintenance).
 
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yyz717
Posts: 15689
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RE: Any News From The 717?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:09 pm

Why would CO and DL especially, go out now and buy a new type for their fleet?

CO has an aging fleet of 733/735/M80 aircraft. DL has an aging fleet of 732/733 aircraft.

A joint 717 (200 & 300) order with NW will likely drive down unit prices considerably. It could make sense.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: Any News From The 717?

Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:12 am

DAL12...
I'm not talking about a pleasure vessel. I'm talking about a $200M chemical tanker or a $250M cruise ship. And yes, I feel the complexity is very much the same.
We'll just end up disagreeing on that point.
Brdgs.

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