MAH4546
Topic Author
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AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:03 pm

This has been talked about before. Now it is official. Non-stop service between San Francisco and Maui start 10 June 2004 and operates until 7 September 2004:

AA 233 SFO 1750-2020 OGG
AA 232 OGG 2150-0553 SFO

Will operate with Boeing 757 aircraft. From Maui, AA currently serves Chicago O'Hare, Dallas, Los Angeles, and San Jose non-stop.
a.
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:31 pm

Yes ... A SFO based flight attendant (AA) told me about this last week. Also coming down the pike is a SEA-OGG (or it may be HNL), a SFO-LHR (slot being provided from BA), additional LIH and KOA flights, as well as a morning departure (8am) from HNL-LAX.

Southwest Airlines apparently had rights to fly to Hawaii, and gave them to AA, thus the added flights and frequencies to/from the islands.
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
dadoftyler
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:47 pm

Um....no, Southwest doesn't "have rights" to fly to Hawaii. American didn't need anything from another airline to fly this (and the chances of Southwest "giving" another carrier anything for free is between slim and none). Airlines don't actually need "right" any longer to fly between points in the US, although for Hawaii they do need overwater equipped aircraft, which Southwest doesn't have.

It is, however, an interesting choice for an aircraft that would otherwise just be a RON. I doubt the a.m. HNL-LAX, though, as that pretty much "uses" a whole aircraft at very low yield. United and Hawaiian already have a.m. HNL-LAX service, and they're never full. Nonrevs use these as their only way back to the mainland on peak days--trust me, I'm one of them.
 
Thrust
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:30 am

What aircraft are they going to put on this route? Probably the 763ER or the 757, since SFO-OGG is around as long as a non-stop transcontinental journey. The A300 actually might make some sense. The 772ER is too big for that route.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:42 am

Thrust, I was told the flights would be using the 757 on both the SFO-OGG/HNL and HNL-LAX morning departure.

Dadoftyler, I'm just reported what was told to me by a flight attendant. They received a company eMail outlining the new flights and added frequencies coming in the next few months. I'm assuming for staffing purposes.
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
as739x
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:55 am

THRUST....The A300 make no sense at all. AA has made it clear they try and keep the same type of A/C at airports. Other then Hubs, you don't see much veriety. Where would you start a A300 from to get it to SFO? All this flight does is make use of a airplane that would spend the night in SFO.Thats a leisure plane the A300 and all the other routes headed east are a mix with business.
MOLOKAI..... what do you mean WN had the rights to Hawaii? Someone gave you bad info. No Hawaii airport is restricted, its just like if AA started SFO-FLL, they can just start it, no questions asked. Its not a International flight (Though some airlines classify it that way).
Good news for SFO however, maybe it will go year round cause the 757 seems best for that flight.
ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:13 am

What aircraft would they use on the SEA-OGG route? And I assume that they're starting this route to be competetive with NW and HA?
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
as739x
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:33 am

BCAinfoSys....it would be a 757 I'm sure! Personally I'd say I will believe it when I see it, but I didn't see the SFO-OGG coming so maybe.
ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
WMUPilot
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:41 am

Possibly going after TZ since we've had tremendous success on this route? We use the 757-200 and 757-300 on all the Hawaii routes.
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
Guest

RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 3:47 am

Possibly going after TZ since we've had tremendous success on this route?

Well, since Pleasant Holidays buys most of TZ's seats... but no, AA's new service isn't in response to TZ. AA has quickly grown to be one of the largest carriers to Hawaii over the past decade...
 
jjbiv
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:19 am

It's not crazy to suggest that this might be, in part, due to TZ's success with the route in particular and to Hawaii in general. I am surprised to see AA adding service to anywhere in Hawaii at the moment, though. Hawaii flights are usually notorious for being low-yield affairs. Why AA wants lower RASM is beyond me; this would tend to support the hypothesis that this service is for competitive and not financial reasons.

Yes, PHH buys blocks of seats on most Hawaii routes, but, hey, a seat filled is a seat filled. Marginal revenue is a great thing. Also keep in mind that TZ's CASM is industry leading for a carrier of its composition. ATA's service to Hawaii is nothing to scoff at, either.

joe
 
aaway
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:20 am

"Also coming down the pike is a SEA-OGG (or it may be HNL) additional LIH and KOA flights, as well as a morning departure (8am) from HNL-LAX.
Speculative, but perhaps very plausible. After all, AA has a bevy of 75s in leisure market configurations. While they get maximum usage during the winter for Florida, they'll have to find other markets for the summertime.
Though AA's prescence at SEA is middling, the new codeshare with AS could be a nice opportunity to capture some of that traffic AS is now interlining to HA and NW.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:36 am

Aaway,

Not speculative at all. Also, AA does not have a "bevy of 75s" in leisure market configurations ... All of AA's 75's are in one standard (22F/166Y) configuration, with exception to the TWA 75's still in use.

Look for these new additions/frequencies later in the year.
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
Guest

RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:47 am

I am surprised to see AA adding service to anywhere in Hawaii at the moment, though. Hawaii flights are usually notorious for being low-yield affairs.

All five major network carriers serving Hawaii have increased capacity in recent years (as has TZ, HA and AQ). I believe flights to Hawaii make money -- especially when one considers vacation packages, etc.

AA's service to Hawaii over the past decade:

Summer 1994:
SFO-HNL - DC10
LAX-HNL - 2xDC10
DFW-HNL - 2xDC10
ORD-HNL - DC10
HNL-OGG - 2xDC10

Summer 2004:
SFO-LAX- 757
SFO-OGG, 757
SJC-HNL, 757
SJC-OGG, 757
LAX-HNL - 2x757, 763 (additional 763 on Sat.)
LAX-OGG - 757, 763 (additional 763 on Sat.)
LAX-KOA - 757
LAX-LIH - 2x757
DFW-HNL - 2x763
DFW-OGG - 763
ORD-HN - 2x763
ORD-OGG - 763

- - -

SEA-Hawaii would be an interesting choice for AA. Would they be able to successfuly compete against HA, NW and TZ? SEA-Hawaii will arguably be overserved... NW has a much larger marketshare in SEA vs. AA...
 
Guest

RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:51 am

Not speculative at all... Look for these new additions/frequencies later in the year.
It is speculative. Again, I think the SEA-Hawaii market is (and will continue to be when HA and NW add frequency) over served already. I don’t believe AA/AS codeshare to Hawaii, so they’d have to amend that part of their agreement. Also, I’ve never seen AS provide feed for HA’s SEA flights, although they do so for other HA flights… this leads me to believe that NW/AS have some type of agreement. Nonetheless, AA’s SEA market share is insignificant compared to UA/NW, so I’m not sure what’d entice flyers to utilize their services other than price.

Also, AA does not have a "bevy of 75s" in leisure market configurations
“Lesiure market configuration” refers to non-MRTC configuration…


[Edited 2004-02-10 21:14:56]
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:16 am

IndustrialPate,

If AA flight attendants are being notified of such new routes through company eMail, how do you consider this speculative? Also, MRTC is being removed from ALL of AA's 75s.
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
aaway
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:16 am

Thanks IP. Didn't want to use the LRTC moniker.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
as739x
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:25 am

Any AS or NW people correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Alaska codesharing with AA from SEA to HNL/OGG be a breach in contrat with Northwest? I don't see there being an agreement on that and without feed into Seattle with Alaska, I doubt AA can make SEA work.
ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
FLIBOYZ
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:36 am

One of the reasons for the SEA-OGG service on AA could be that AA and AS has formed a lucrative code-share agreement. This code-share agreement could be just enough for AA to start service from SEA to ANY Hawaii destination, regardless of it's competition.

I hope we start more service from NEW places soon. AA needs to beef up service to and from Hawaii. SEA-OGG/HNL would be nice, PDX-OGG/HNL.

I think that AS and HA has some kind of code-sharing agreement too. Correct me if I am wrong. But if they do, it could be that AS wants a more stable airline to deal business with. This because of HAs BR? I don't know.

Just my thoughts.

Aloha
 
Guest

RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:38 am

If AA flight attendants are being notified of such new routes through company eMail, how do you consider this speculative?

If AA's FAs are being notified of SEA-HNL and/or SEA-OGG via company e-mail, then the route will be announced within days. Cabin crew are never notified of new routes months in advance -- and FA have been known to very very gossipy...

Again, I could not picture AA operating SEA-HNL/OGG status quo. They'd be going up against HA (one to two daily B763 to HNL, daily B763 to OGG), NW (should be operating two B753 to HNL, one B753 to OGG this summer) and TZ (B752 to HNL). It's a crowded market, AA has little market share in SEA, and not much to sell their services on other than price.

...but wouldn't Alaska codesharing with AA from SEA to HNL/OGG be a breach in contrat with Northwest?

I suspect it would, but I'm not 100% positive. I've never seen an example of AS providing regional feed onto HA's flights from SEA to Hawaii (but I have seen they do so from EWR) but they do so on all others.
 
Guest

RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:43 am

This code-share agreement could be just enough for AA to start service from SEA to ANY Hawaii destination, regardless of it's competition.

I think I touched on this in my earlier postings... nor do I believe AA/AS codeshare to Hawaii status quo.

I hope we start more service from NEW places soon. AA needs to beef up service to and from Hawaii. SEA-OGG/HNL would be nice, PDX-OGG/HNL.

As I previously wrote, AA has a pretty healthy schedule to Hawaii:

Summer 2004:
SFO-LAX- 757
SFO-OGG, 757
SJC-HNL, 757
SJC-OGG, 757
LAX-HNL - 2x757, 763 (additional 763 on Sat.)
LAX-OGG - 757, 763 (additional 763 on Sat.)
LAX-KOA - 757
LAX-LIH - 2x757
DFW-HNL - 2x763
DFW-OGG - 763
ORD-HNL - 2x763
ORD-OGG - 763

I can't imagine AA offering any more long-hauls, other than seasonal/weekend/daily service from JFK or BOS. I doubt AA would be successful in more West Coast markets (e.g. PDX)... maybe AS / KLAS), USA - Nevada">LAS?
 
artsyman
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:45 am

This new route just smells of over capacity, and seems daft to start a low yield route out a major UAL hub when there already plenty of available seats.

J
 
aaway
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:02 am

..."seems daft to start a low yield route out a major UAL hub when there already plenty of available seats."
UA relinquished a bit of it's leadership position at SEA, particularly SEA - Hawaii, with the discontinuation of n/s SEA - Hawaii flights. Now served via SFO on UA.
As739x,
Good point! The AA-AS codeshare does cover just West Coast flying at this point in time. But this bears another question: Why would the AS-NW agreement be limited to exclusivity from SEA to Hawaii?

[Edited 2004-02-10 22:08:28]
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:33 am

"If AA's FAs are being notified of SEA-HNL and/or SEA-OGG via company e-mail, then the route will be announced within days. Cabin crew are never notified of new routes months in advance -- and FA have been known to very very gossipy... "

Yeah, that makes lots of sense, doesn't it.
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
SFOJFK
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:16 pm

SFO-HNL has been an AA route for years. It was on the DC-10, the 763, and now the 757. They just added SJC-HNL in 2000 and added OGG a year later. Just wondering if they would keep the SJC-OGG with this added flight.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:23 pm

They just added SJC-HNL in 2000 and added OGG a year later.

Not sure when SJC-HNL was added, but SJC-OGG started in 2000.

Just wondering if they would keep the SJC-OGG with this added flight.

Both will still operate.
a.
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:08 pm

767s are returning on the SFO-HNL flights, if they haven't already.
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
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legacyins
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:01 am

"Yes ... A SFO based flight attendant (AA) told me about this last week. Also coming down the pike is a SEA-OGG (or it may be HNL), a SFO-LHR (slot being provided from BA), additional LIH and KOA flights, as well as a morning departure (8am) from HNL-LAX"

RE: the SFO-LHR, would they derve the route themselves from SFO or would they try to transfer the route to SJC for a flight from there? Also, does BA have # times daily route authority from SFO to LHR or just 2 times daily? It would be hard to believe BA would drop to one daily flight to SFO, especially during the summer.
 
cvervais
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:15 am

RE: the SFO-LHR, would they derve the route themselves from SFO or would they try to transfer the route to SJC for a flight from there?

I'd love to see this. I miss seeing the AA heavies flying by my office window on departure from SJC when the weather is good and and flying by when arriving in not so good weather. The SJC-CDG flight was a 762 and I think I might be wrong on this but there was another 777 to TPE at one point too.

It's just the 777 to Narita now for AA heavies. The rest of the heavies are cargo like FedEx, UPS, and Airborne.
 
aaway
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:43 am

"the SFO-LHR, would they derve the route themselves from SFO or would they try to transfer the route to SJC for a flight from there?

The "Bermuda II" agreement (U.K.-U.S. air services accord) not only sets which UK/US carriers can fly to/from LHR, it also stipulates the cities ("gateways") that can be served to/from LHR. Typically SJC is considered a coterminal with SFO. Most of the large metro areas with multiple airports having scheduled air service (LAX, CHI, NYC) are considered coterminals. However, B-II does not recognize this concept. Thus, if this slot transfer comes into fruition, AA will have to fly SFO-LHR as SJC is not eligible nonstop service via LHR at this time.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
Guest

RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:40 pm

767s are returning on the SFO-HNL flights, if they haven't already.

The B763 are here temporarily – the route reverts back to a B757 shortly...

- - -

And FWIW, the idea of BA giving up LHR slots to AA to operate SFO-LHR is laughable...
 
aaway
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:18 am

"And FWIW, the idea of BA giving up LHR slots to AA to operate SFO-LHR is laughable..."

I don't think AA and BA are THAT chummy! And I certainly wasn't suggesting that this would take place. Merely answering a question posted by another valued A.net member.

[Edited 2004-02-12 17:27:23]
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:19 am

IndustrialPate,

How fortunate are we, that you KNOW so much about AA. What exactly is your position/title at the airline? Instead of attending my meetings in DFW, I'll just consult you instead ... it'll save me the plane ride.

We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
qqflyboy
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:54 am

My .02,

SEA-HNL doesn't seem likely as AA does not operate a crew base there. The SEA base closed sometime after 9/11 when AA canceled its SEA-AA), Japan">NRT service. I don't know where the crews would come from for those flights, as AA has two flight attendant pools: domestic and international. Domestic never fly international routes and international F/As rarely fly domestic, although it happens for crew placement. That could be the case here, but the crews flying into SEA to operate an HNL flight would be coming from too far away to make them legal, requiring a layover in SEA and significantly upping the cost.

As far as Hawaii being a low yield market: According to Dan Garton, EVP of Marketing, he said in a meeting I attended that yields over the past ten years have picked up significantly and as a result, the airlines have increased capacity. Hawaii isn't the junk market it was once considered. For perspective: You can often find transcons at far less cost than flying from the west coast to Hawaii. Flying roundtrip to Hawaii from the west coast at $350 is a bargain, and hard to get at that. A lot of transcons can be had for a $100 less.

SFO-HNL goes back to a 757 on May 1, according to SABRE.

Also looking in SABRE, there is what we call a STAR record, and there is one for "New Markets". According to it, AA will start SFO-OGG on June 10 with a 757, and the service will end on September 8. No mention of SEA to HNL or any other Hawaiian destinations, nor SFO-LHR.

Cvervais... you're not completely out of luck. AA still operates its daily SJC-AA), Japan">NRT service with a 777, which departs at 12:20pm. The return arrives at SJC at 9:55am. And you are right, AA did fly SJC-TPE with a 777, but it never came back, as well as CDG, post 9/11. And BTW, SJC-CDG was operated with a 763.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:29 am

Qqflyboy,

What's the exact star record for "new markets?" I'd like to take a look at it.

Thanks in advance!
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
aaway
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:34 am

"What's the exact star record for "new markets?" I'd like to take a look at it."

Market Changes
Market Changes Intl
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:51 am

Thanks for the star info Aaway!
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
Guest

RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:30 am

I don't think AA and BA are THAT chummy! And I certainly wasn't suggesting that this would take place. Merely answering a question posted by another valued A.net member.

I wasn't referring to you  Big grin.

- - -

... Instead of attending my meetings in DFW...

And after your next consulting meating, please tell use about AA's new LIT-AA), Japan">NRT and BNA-SYD services. The idea that BA would give up slots, after paying UA tens of millions for some more, to AA for nothing -- and to have AA compete with them is still f***** hilarious!
 
LMP737
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:19 am

Cool, one more way for me to get to the islands and spend lots of money!  Big grin
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
KKMolokai
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:35 am

"And after your next consulting meating, please tell use about AA's new LIT-AA), Japan">AA), Japan">NRT and BNA-SYD services. "

Wow ... Great! Haven't heard about these new routes yet ... I'm assuming these will be on CRJ700 aircraft?
We are the people of American Airlines. And we know why you fly.
 
AA787
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:48 am

What's next? JFK-HNL with a 763?
ET In NYC
 
ATA767
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:51 pm

TZ may retaliate adding more Hawaii on their own with out Pleasant Hawaiian. They have already done that out of SFO. If they start flying the 737-800 there that would make it even more profitable for them.
 
jjbiv
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RE: AA To Inagurate Non-stop SFO-OGG

Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:18 am

It's only a matter of time before ATA brings the B738s to Hawaii, IMHO...

joe