airxliban
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Northwest....why No 767?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:41 pm

Northwest Airlines does not operate any Boeing 767s.

Why?

I know they have their beloved DC-10s...

But United and American both operated the DC-10 next to the 767, and Delta the L-1011 alongside the 767.

Continental they've only recently jumped on the 767 bandwagon...but what was the deal with Northwest? They have 757s! Did they ever consider the 767?

Did they just not need that sort of aircraft for their route structure back in those days?

Any thoughts...

Air Liban
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
Guest

RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:43 pm

NW doesn't operate the 767 because they don't have any in their fleet.
 
artsyman
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:04 pm

Patent... did you work that out all by yourself ?

Jeremy
Ps. what happened to your IM today,...
 
Paddy
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:06 pm

Haha, what IndustrialPate said. Big grin And they don't have any in their fleet because they have the A330 series in their fleet. I would imagine they considered the 767 back in the 80's but they placed a big order for Airbus instead, including the A332 and A333.
 
airxliban
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:14 pm

obviously not right now since they have the A330, but back in the day i was just curious as to why they didn't make an order. i was thinking it was something to do with their lack of low density routes to europe.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 5:34 pm

I thought they did make an order for 330s and 340s--the North American launch customer, right?--back in the day, but they fell on hard times due to the economy, a takeover attempt that ate up a lot of funds (this might be the 2am in me talkin'...!), etc.

While I'm certainly no expert on NWA storied history, I'm sure others can chime in with more specific info. But I'm quite certain that orders were initially placed and subsequently cancelled, meaning that the 767 was considered even back then.
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:50 pm

I know NW better then I know my wife and kids(im not kidding), and they never ordered the 7-6. They did order 24 A340's in the early 90's but xcled them a few years later.
I wondered why no 7-6's myself so I sent an E mail to MSP G.O. about 5 years ago asking the same Q.
My response was " the aircraft doesnt fit our fleet requirements". That quote came from straight from NW. Hope that answers the lead question here.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:11 pm

I'm not to sure why NW never ordered the 767 along with the other majors when the 76 was introduced. My guess is they just didn't need an aircraft of that size/capabilities. Yes, they indeed had orders for the A330/340 several years ago. I love Boeing aircraft, but I was genuinely excited to see the A330/340 in livery at the time. Not the latest redition. I thought they were going to be very sharp.

But as far as the 767 goes, my opinion is... not a clue.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
redtailmsp
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:57 am

NWA never interested in the 767 because of lack of cargo capacity - inability to carry ld-3 containers I think. Also, in the '80's and early '90's, NWA never really contemplated ETOPS operations.
 
VSGirl
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:14 am

I would agree with Redtailmsp. With the DC10's they operate the Boeing 767 series 200 and 300 would not have enough cargo and passenger capacity.

With the Boeing 767 series 400, they have made more room in the cabin, but from what I have heard she is not a very good cargo carrier (compared to the DC10).

Kimberly.
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:28 am

One important factor that no one has mentioned. In the late 70s and early 80s, NW was primarily a trans-Pacific operation with a non-mainstream domestic hub (MSP). So, the 767 was probably too small for the trans-Pacific flights, and too big for the domestic MSP hub. Because of NW's Pacific presence, NW had developed a strong cargo operation. As stated above, the inability of the 767 to carry LD-3s would be another strike against the 767.
 
redtailmsp
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:44 am

Thats true about NWA being primarily transpacific in the 70's and early 80's - and all international flying was done by 747-100s and -200s too. The DC10-40 was bought for domestic operation and was not intended for international or Hawiian operations - and in good old NWA fashion, they were bought with lower operating weight and performance packages. Consequently, when they decided to operate the DC10 to Europe and Hawii, they were severely performance limited - often freight was left behind. When they opted for the secondhand DC10-30's, this gave them superior payload abilities - we could carry full payloads on all routes previously operated by the -40, as well as opening up new markets such as SEA-AMS. This effectively gave them a far cheaper and more capable aircraft than the 767 as well as having all the technical expertise and crews for the DC10. All-in-all, a very smart decision by NWA.
 
Guest

RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:37 am

The DC10-40 was bought for domestic operation and was not intended for international or Hawiian operations...

uhh... the DC10-40 were operating ORD-NRT within months of their delivery. When they were purchased (and initially delivered), NW did not have a domestic network, other than one to feed their Pacific operations. The problem with the DC10-40 was always reliability with the JT9D-20 engines...

- - -

But yes, as always Dynkrisolo has it right... NW did not originally purchase the B767 because it was too small for their operations (and their DC10-40 were only about 10-years-old at that point). Instead, they opted to purchase the A330/A340. Obviously the order was cancelled+deferred but in the 1990s NW choose not to go with the B767 because it did not meet their freighter needs.
 
MEA321
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:02 am

It would seem more feasible if NW ordered the 767 before they decided to order the A330-300. They already were operating the 757 which would have made crew training easier and less expensive. But they ordered the A330 and introduced a new aircraft to their fleet.

The cross training from 757 to 767 is much less expensive from the A320 family to the A330. Maybe Airbus gave NW a good deal on the aircraft.

MEA321
MEA321
 
Guest

RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:06 am

Maybe Airbus gave NW a good deal on the aircraft.

As previously written, in that era (the mid/late 1980s),
- the B767 was too small for NW's needs
- the B767's cargo capabilities were inadequate for NW's needs
 
gigneil
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:07 am

Or maybe, duh, it was a better aircraft more suited to their routes?

Good lord. Northwest is one of the largest cargo operators in the world, they have a huge cargo requirement, and the 767 is not the airplane to do that with. Simple.

Who cares how cheap it is to fly both the 757 and 767 if you have to leave all the money behind on the ramp?

Crew training, while a significant expense, is both capitalizable and not a deal breaker.

N
 
Thrust
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:25 am

They probably also don't operate the 767-300ER or 767-200ER because their cargo AND passenger capacities do not match up to those of the DC-10-30, or their now-deceased DC-10-40s. The A330s fill the niche for NWA better than the 767s.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Northwest....Why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:56 am

Now ask why didnt NW buy the 777? Same answer, I suppose.....NW was interested at one time in the triple seven and asked Boeing to install a larger cargo door. Boeing said sure....for a price. Scarebus said...we will give you a larger door on the 330 and no extra cost. The rest is history. I was told this by a NW employee. Whether or not this is fact remains to be seen.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
Guest

RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:07 am

.....NW was interested at one time in the triple seven and asked Boeing to install a larger cargo door. Boeing said sure....for a price.

No, it's not true. NW purchased the A330/A340 before the B777 was even conceived. The A340 order was cancelled after the aircraft failed to meet expectations (the three A340 built for NW were delivered to, and are still with, VS) but the A330 order was continually deferred. In 2001, NW reconfirmed its order for the A330 (by placing a new, larger one & canceling its former one out at a rate of 4x per year). NW choose the A330 because of the A332/A332 commonality (the 7E7 was not conceived), smaller capacity, what they claim is cheaper operating costs vs. the B777 across the Atlantic & the fact that they stood to lose a large sum of money (at least $20 million, as much as $40 million) that they had invested in their A330/A340 deposits.

Boeing isn't better for everyone.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:18 am

In the early 1980's, NW felt it was more economical to stay with the DC10-40's that they had. NW was still more concentrated to the Orient at the time with a few routes to Europe. The country was also coming out of an oil crunch. Their widebody fleet plan was to keep the the types in the fleet simple. The 757's were aquired for transcon/higher-density routes that the 727's couldn't handle. The 707's had been gone for years and the needed to fill that small gap. There apparently was no gap between the 757/DC10/747 that warrented the 767. AA and UA were much bigger domestically than NW was at the time the 767 came out.
Made from jets!
 
Guest

RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:31 am

In the early 1980's, NW felt it was more economical to stay with the DC10-40's that they had..

Actually, NW had begun to phase the DC10-40 out  Smile. They sold off several aircraft, with plans to continue reducing the fleet... the purchase of RC obviously warranted a need for them.
 
desertjets
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:31 am

To beat an already dead horse....

Remember that when United, American, Delta and Air Canada purchased the 767 in the late 70/ early 80s was to fly their high density trunk routes.... IAD-LAX, JFK-LAX, YYZ-YVR, YYZ-LAX and so on. Before the Republic merger Nortwest Orient did not have this abundance of trunk routes. Flights like MSP-LAX/SFO/SEA could easily be served by a mix of DC-10s and 747s continuing on across the Pacific or 727s.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
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solnabo
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:38 am

So when DC10 is phased out, the A332X is taking over 10´s routes?
Any info about NW´s 332X route?
Hejdå och tack för mej  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Michael//SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
gigneil
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:42 am

There is no such thing as a 332X.

As DC-10s are phased out, the 333X will replace them on the most dense or reasonably short routes over the Atlantic.

As the 332s arrive, they will replace DC-10s on the longer routes (over the Pacific).

I do wonder, and mebbe Patent can add insight, if NW will interchange the 332 and 333X on intra-Asia routes from NRT that currently see the DC-10. My guess is no, so that they can rotate the 332s back to the US via a revenue service from NRT for maintenance reasons.

N
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:45 am

IP said, "Actually, NW had begun to phase the DC10-40 out . They sold off several aircraft, with plans to continue reducing the fleet... the purchase of RC obviously warranted a need for them."

That is true. We sold of ship 1142 in December of 81 to GATX and was immediately leased to ATA. It burned out during a mx evolution during and RON at ORD in 82. Ship 1143 was leased on and of to Sun Country until 88 when a couple of DC10-10's became available. I think they were from Scanair. I remeber seeing a Scandinavian reg's on them. We cancelled the further options for more D10's in late 1980.
Made from jets!
 
NWFltAttendant
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:57 am

Few 767/DC10 Notes........

*Ive heard the cargo thing for years at NW, supposedly the LD3s, and that it was only a matter of a few inches that caused this
*The A330 decision wasnt made until Early to mid 2001
*NW isnt forward-looking enough to see the benefits of the 767, a far superior aircraft to the DC10 - with regards to passenger comfort, overheads, dispatch reliability, common flight crews..etc...
Go yakkin !!!!!!
 
gigneil
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:08 am

I think that's BS. NW was fully ready to migrate from the DC-10 to the 330/340, which is why they placed an order in the late 80s.

I don't think it was the 340 not meeting expectations as much as the financial situation, one that affected them until very recently.

In the meantime, NW DC-10s interiors are as nice as any 767 I've been on. No, I've never been on one of DL or CO's, or one of AA's new ones, but whatever.

The 767 is also MUCH smaller than a DC-10.

N
 
BillElliott9
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:11 am

Cargo is a big reason and one point I haven't seen touched on was the DC-10-40s were all PAID for, as well. They may have been sold and leased back when NWA was close to Chapter 11 but they were all bought and paid for.
You can fight without ever winning but never really win without a fight.
 
acidradio
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:24 am

Could the fact that NW and KL partnered kind of early in the game play into this? The 767 seems to be a machine that lately is used on (often) thinner transatlantic routes, while NW has the ability to use something larger like a DC10 or even 747 to get people to AMS and transfer them to KLM flights.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
Guest

RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:50 pm

*The A330 decision wasnt made until Early to mid 2001
No, the decision was made in the late 1980s.

*NW isnt forward-looking enough to see the benefits of the 767, a far superior aircraft to the DC10 - with regards to passenger comfort, overheads, dispatch reliability, common flight crews..etc...
Huh? NW’s replacing their DC-10 with A330 - the “benefirs” you mentioned would be the same for the A330 as they are for the B767. And when the B767 is too small for your capacity needs & inadequate for your freighter needs while the DC-10 meets them both, I think it’s pretty farfetched to say it’s a superior aircraft (for NW’s needs)  Smile/happy/getting dizzy.

I do wonder, and mebbe Patent can add insight, if NW will interchange the 332 and 333X on intra-Asia routes from NRT that currently see the DC-10. My guess is no, so that they can rotate the 332s back to the US via a revenue service from NRT for maintenance reasons.
Other than the B757 and B742 “Beach Market” aircraft, the aircraft operating intra-Asian routes actually continue to/from transpacific routes. For example, for much of 2002 and 2003, NW flew four B744 and three B742 flights to NRT – and they had four B744 and three B742 (excluding beach market & then-A320 markets) operating intra-Asian segments. Nonetheless, only the A332 are slated to fly to Asia… but both the A332 and A333 will be maintained at MSP.

I don't think it was the 340 not meeting expectations as much as the financial situation...
It was the aircraft’s performance. I believe NW avoided cancellation penalties as a result.

Could the fact that NW and KL partnered kind of early in the game play into this?
When NW initally partnered with KL, they had A330/A340 already on order...
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:28 pm

This thread is kind of funny to me being an NWA employee of over 14 years.

What we all should know by now is that NWA is financially conservative.

NWA only buys things that will make them money.

NWA has a huge cargo business. Twelve freighters. Plus the mainline fleet.

NWA's safety record speaks for itself. So having the newest "airplane" of the day is not in their vocabulary if the old one is paid for and is not a safety risk. Kind of gives me some job security too.

I have been on other airlines jets. While all NWA jets are not always what some may say as "white glove" clean. I would put NWA jets up against any airlines aircraft any day.

Everyone knocks the DC10. The only thing I can see is that the middle seat syndrome would drive some crazy across the pound. However, as far as the first off the line 767's, with the same video systems ect. Give me a DC10 anyday. It is always fun to sit in the flight deck and see us zzzzoooooommmmm past a 767.

The new A330 I think is superior to the 767's that I personally have been on. The cabin is wider and the passenger amenities are the best one can get at the moment. Heck, we even warm rolls in Main Cabin. But for those of you that have flown the A330 and get frustrated at the AVOD system. Press the button once. Think Dial up. Not DSL.  Smile

On a final note. If you knock NWA for not getting a 767, remember this. NWA has had for years and continues to have the highest load factor of the legacy U.S. airlines. It just did not fit the fleet requirements of the company from a passenger/route point or cargo. Again. NWA (thank God) only buys things that make them money. Also, never offers a service people are not willing to pay for.

Safe Flying All  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
Guest

RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:10 am

What we all should know by now is that NWA is financially conservative.

To a degree, yes  Big grin. Don't forget that NW placed orders totaling 100 A320, 72 B757, 40 A330/A340 and 16 B744 in the late 1980-early 1990s. Today they have 72 B752/16 B744 but only 78 A320 and 5 A330.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:46 am

Don't forget that NW placed orders totaling 100 A320, 72 B757, 40 A330/A340 and 16 B744 in the late 1980-early 1990s. Today they have 72 B752/16 B744 but only 78 A320 and 5 A330.

Didn't we convert some of our A320 orders to the A319? I know the original A330 orders to 320's. Just a question.
Made from jets!
 
Guest

RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:56 am

Didn't we convert some of our A320 orders to the A319? I know the original A330 orders to 320's. Just a question.

No, half the original A320 order got the ax... they've placed large, separate orders for more A320 and A319 since as well as converted some options -- but no A320 were converted into A319.
 
airxliban
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:31 pm

well as the originator of this thread let me say that I am not bashing NWA for not getting any 767s, just wondering why not.

And the question has been answered in terms of fitting the fleet, cargo business etc.

thank you all for your responses.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Northwest....why No 767?

Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:57 pm

Why fly a 767 when you can fly 3 DC9s?  Big grin
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